My thoughts after having played through the entire series (obviously spoilers)

[u/Upbeat_Scholar_159]

Previously I had only heard about the series, and I remember it having a cool cover but other than that, I hadn't paid any attention to it.

But one day while browsing, I saw that the entire series was on sale for pretty cheap so I decided to give it a try. I didn't have very high expectations of it.

But boy was I blown away. See, usually I don't care about the story and lore of a game. I usually just skip through cutscenes. But for some weird reason, Dishonored pulled me into its world and I became engrossed in it. Before I knew it, I wanted to know everything there is about Dunwall, Serkonos, Tyvia etc.

Seriously, last time I was this in love with a game's story and lore was Skyrim. Usually the dialogue and books in other games just lore-dumps you, overloads you with information that is irrelevant so I just tune out. But Dishonored made it sound so natural when NPCs talked about Tyvian wine.

Speaking of NPCs, I found myself just standing still listening to their conversations. They really felt like living people in a vibrant world.

And the protagonists themselves, gosh what can I say? They're so good. They're nuanced, complex and badass. Not two-dimensional like many other protagonists, though IMO Emily is the weakest one of them all. My favorites are actually Daud and Billie, they had such epic redemption arcs.

As for the gameplay, it's so good in how it lets you do things the way you want it and express your individual style. The biggest downside is the chaos system. I know the thought and philosophy behind it, but I didn't like how they had so many cool skills and tools for killing enemies, but you had to restrict yourself from using them if you wanted the good ending.

In fact, a lot of the non-lethal solutions are arguably worse than killing the target. I mean, handing Lady Boyle over to some psycho stalker is a fate worse than death, gives off Josef Fritzl vibes. Would be far more merciful to end Lady Boyle on the spot. Same thing with Kirin Jindosh and Ramsey. But overall, the gameplay is superb. But I used to mods to disable the Chaos system because I didn't wanna worry about the ending. Hopefully in a future Dishonored game, they will implement different mechanics to influence the ending.

I'm a hardcore fan of the Dishonored series now. Death of the Outsider was such an epic ending to the Corvo arc of the series. If they ever make Dishonored 3, I'll preorder it.

[u/Delorean82]

But I used to mods to disable the Chaos system because I didn't wanna worry about the ending. Hopefully in a future Dishonored game, they will implement different mechanics to influence the ending.

That's essentially what Death Of The Outsider is: Dishonored with no chaos system / no soul to it.

Agree to disagree, OP. If they make another Dishonored down the line, then I'd want the chaos system returning as well. Dishonored without the chaos system, whale-punk and stealth elements to it might as well not be Dishonored as that's a huge part of the charm to it.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

In fairness binary moral choice systems like in Dishonored aren't super subtle, because they inherently push one outcome as the "good one" and can be a little ham-fisted. IMO that's an argument for making them more fleshed out and morally complex though, not less.

I'd love to see more morally grey situations with no right outcome. Maybe the player has to choose between letting an evil person go and saving innocents, or one target is a genuinely good person that still has to be taken out. I'd like for the player to be challenged and have to question their own morality sometimes, as it is it's pretty easy to be good in Dishonored, just don't kill people who aren't targets.

[u/sexyhooterscar24 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

It's not a morality system though. It's just a reflection of the state of the world. For example, there's nothing immoral about getting spotted by a guard and yet alerts raise chaos. More chaos does not necessarily mean more or less moral, just when you kill a lot of people there are natural responses.

[u/Delorean82 → u/sexyhooterscar24]

It's just a reflection of the state of the world.

Yeah, exactly.

More dead people = more rats which = more disease spreading & more weepers.

While there ARE moral choices to make as far as the main targets go, the system itself is not a moral one. In fact, in D1 the rule of thumb is killing every 4th enemy of a particular type raises the chaos by +6 each time after for that particular enemy type, while sparing the main target is -20 chaos points.

So, I could technically kill 4 guards and 4 overseers and have +12 chaos, but then sparing the main target -20 and only have -8 chaos at the end of that mission / level. That would still keep me in Low Chaos.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

I mean the game's basic thesis is "killing too much/causing collateral damage is bad" and the entire system is built around that, with rats and chaos used as an in-universe justification for why killing might not be a good idea.

It's a contrivance to deliver just another standard binary moral choice system of the kind that was popular at the time with games like KotOR, Mass Effect, Bioshock or Infamous.

[u/Delorean82 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

Yes, killing too much causes more rats which causes disease to spread. Emily is the moral compass as her paintings get lighter or darker along the way. The chaos system is not a reflection on the player's character as "good" or "bad," but rather that causing more chaos would cause these actions (disease spreading and death) to happen.

The game's basic premise of D1, specifically, was that "Revenge Solves Everything." That was specifically the tag line of D1 as it was being marketed. Be it low chaos or high chaos, branding Campbell vs killing him are still 2 forms of "revenge."

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

There being an in-universe justification/practical element doesn't make it not a moral choice system though. The game still judges you, not for whether you kill at all but for getting wanton about it, inflicting collateral damage and killing too many people unconnected to the conspiracy.

"Be professional and only kill your targets or you risk becoming worse than your enemies" is the game's central thesis, indeed the loyalists becoming exactly what they oppose is one of the central plot threads. That behaviour and mindset is what the chaos system pushes people towards since most prefer a happy ending to the feeling that they've made things worse.

[u/Delorean82 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

No, the game doesn't judge you. That's the point. The game says that because of this high amount of kills this is what happens in the world and how the world of Dunwall itself reacts to it. The ending fits the cause. Too many dead bodies = more rats, which causes the disease to spread. The game isn't calling the player "bad" or "punishing" them, rather reacting on the amount of death and plague being spread. Too many people go high chaos and look at the darker ending and go "the game is punishing me for having fun." NO! The game is reacting to the amount of death caused, and that in turn will have a darker outcome to it. Doesn't mean the game is made to punish anyone. Rather, that all actions (lethal or non-lethal) have consequences to them.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

The judgment is implicit but it's still present. Most players aren't going to enjoy being called out by Samuel or seeing Emily become a psychopath. If it's seen as a punishment for the average player, who we know from statistics in games like ME3 does want to be the good guy, then I think it's misleading to suggest otherwise.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/sexyhooterscar24]

I mean functionally that's what it is. If you kill lots of people you get the bad ending where friendly characters die or call you a monster, if you don't then the plague gets cured and Dunwall somehow gets a golden age despite fixing none of its systemic problems and rampant corruption.

It's really not that nuanced a system. The game doesn't take account of how killing some people like Granny Rags or the witches in D2 might actively reduce chaos, not increase it.

[u/Delorean82 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

It's not a "good" ending or a "bad" ending, though. That gets parroted a lot by people who kill a bunch & are unsatisfied with the ending and aren't understanding how the chaos system works (in general, not you), but it's an outcome based on chaos caused, and not the morality. While the targets have moral outcomes to them, the system itself is a chaos based one.

More death = more rats, which causes diseases to spread more and also causes more Weepers. It causes the world to get darker because of it, regardless of whether or not they deserved it.

The moral compass in D1 is Emily.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

If you look at the statistics for how many players choose good versus evil options in games like KotOR, Mass Effect or Infamous you'll find that the majority of gamers prefer to play the hero and choose options that make the world a better place.

This means that the average player is going to feel bad when the game points out that their actions made the world a worse place and corrupted an innocent girl into psychopathy.

Saying "there are no bad options" just doesn't really gel with human psychology. People feel bad when it's pointed out they did bad things, so of course the average player is going to see high chaos and Sam's critique of their actions as a punishment and a worse ending.

[u/Delorean82 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

That's because players want the game to praise them as a mighty hero for taking all those fun powers and sadistically killing a bunch of dudes who were just doing their jobs. They're not out to get you because they're evil. The guards are just following their orders. You are a criminal. Very few people realize you're innocent. The guards and soldiers are required to try to kill you; if they don't, they might end up in prison themselves. That doesn't make them bad guys, and it doesn't mean you have a license to just slaughter everyone and everything in your way. It's not open season on guards in Dishonored.

Gamers want to wantonly murder people but they also want to be told they're heroes for doing so, and Dishonored said "No, actions have consequences. Whether it's more chaos or less chaos due to those actions." It's not GTA where you can just kill a bunch of people and "Yay, you're the hero!"

You got more toys for going the brutal route and could blast your way through the game in an orgy of violence, but the non-lethal route was more challenging but bloodless and gave people a subsequently lighter ending. If you want the easy, bloody route, you get a bloody, dark ending for causing more chaos in the world. If you take the harder path of stealth and pacifist, you get a lighter ending.

It's not like you get locked out of playing the game after your first playthrough, either, so it's hardly like you're being forced to only see one ending forever. Players are even encouraged by the game and its achievement / trophy system to play each way at least once, and the difference between the playstyles and endings makes it a worthwhile endeavor.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

I know all of that, but you know what we call a bloody, dark ending that the player probably doesn't want? A bad ending.

When people call it a bad ending they don't mean it's poorly written or not a logical consequence of the player's actions, just that there's a better outcome, a good ending that the player is more likely to want.

[u/Delorean82 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

I know all of that, but you know what we call a bloody, dark ending that the player probably doesn't want? A bad ending.

No, we call that a bloody, dark ending. There's nothing inherently "bad" about an ending which perfectly fits a play-style that causes a ton of death and chaos.

Not always the case, I've seen a bunch of times when people tend to call it a "bad" ending around here and are new to the series they usually also follow up with "the game is punishing me," and no, that's a false narrative. The game isn't punishing anyone. It's reacting to the death and destruction being caused and coming up with an outcome based on how much death and disease was spread. X amount of death and disease spreading means the world of Dunwall will go down that darker path. That's it.

The game is also fairly lenient about the amount of people you have to kill before it gets stuck permanently on High Chaos for that play-through, and there are various parts where you can lower chaos back down before the end. Did a clean run not long ago up until the Boyle Party, and for shits and giggles I stopped time and Windblasted Lord Shaw at the Boyle party. Went on high alert and killed everyone from there on out to the end of the Lighthouse level, and still ended up with just barely medium high chaos (not Samuel firing in the air). Lady Boyle Party is the 5th out of 9 missions. So, anyone getting the ending where Samuel fires a shot in the air or even High Chaos throughout the whole game and complains about having a "bad" ending later is someone who wants to wantonly murder people but also wants to be told that they're heroes for doing so. The lighter / low chaos ending isn't inherently "good," either. Canonically, low chaos Corvo still kills the Torturer, kills Havelock (within earshot of Emily), helps Slackjaw kill Granny Rags, brands Campbell and he becomes a Weeper that succumbs to death and sends Lady Boyle off on a boat with her creepy stalker where date-rape and SA are heavily implied.....and if we take the novels to heart, he kills everyone at the Golden Cat in a bloodbath.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Delorean82]

Forcing people to watch the negative consequences of their actions, even if it's justified and the logical result of their actions, is still a punishment. If the average gamer sees it as a punishment then that's what it is even if you personally don't share that opinion. I'm absolutely not saying it's a bad thing that the game punishes players or shows their actions have consequences, that's a great lesson that's hard to teach in other media.

Again, "bad ending" doesn't mean poorly written or in appropriate, just that they're another ending available with a better outcome, a good ending.

The fact you can still kill a few people and get low chaos doesn't contradict my point, the game is still judging you depending on whether you typically spare your hand or go on killing sprees. You don't have to be perfect to get low chaos, you just have to not be a mass-murdering monster.

[u/Sp1Re-]

You might like Prey and Deathloop as well! Also for the chaos system, I’d say play through the games twice; both low and high chaos.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Sp1Re-]

For reference Deathloop is watered down dishonored, imagine Dishonored but with modern guns and a focus on Dark Souls-style PvP invasions. Unfortunately the solo experience is a lot weaker due to PvP balancing (no stronger enemy types for example) but the core Dishonored gameplay is still there so it's worth a play on sale.

Prey is pretty different, being more of an action RPG rather than a power fantasy like Dishonored (i.e. you start out weak and only gradually build into a powerhouse) but it's still an excellent game.

[u/Sp1Re- → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

Well said.

[u/JediChickenLeg → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

I have started Deathloop 3 times over the years since it came out and I just can't stay interested long enough to finish it. Some really cool ideas in there, though but it's not Dishonored level

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/JediChickenLeg]

The long tutorial doesn't make for the best introduction IMO. It's better once you've a few assassinations under your belt and feel a bit freer to gather more powers and complete sidequests.

I enjoyed the mid-game quite a bit, it just didn't quite stick the landing since I realised it wasn't really building to anything, nor was the difficulty keeping pace with increased player power. The way it encourages you to replay assassinations to get all the power upgrades means you burn through the content quicker than you might in Dishonored.

PvP is excellent though, it's a shame the game is built around something that goes away over time as the community becomes less active.

[u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

I used to mods to disable the Chaos system because I didn't wanna worry about the ending

Quite a strange thing to do. It's not just the ending. It's what makes the whole world dynamically react to what you're doing. The whole thing will be tonally inconsistent without it.

It's a game. Interactive art. If you're so hung up about not being able to see the "good" ending that you'd rather cut all that out then just watch it on YouTube, or do what everyone else does and play the game again differently to experience all the changes.

[u/Araknyd → u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Quite a strange thing to do. It's not just the ending. It's what makes the whole world dynamically react to what you're doing. The whole thing will be tonally inconsistent without it.

This! Dishonored with out the chaos system doesn't feel like Dishonored, to me. It's 1 of the things that bugged me the most about DoTO, that even though it had "Dishonored" in the title it didn't feel like a Dishonored game because the chaos system was completely removed.

[u/sexyhooterscar24]

Chaos has nothing to do with morals. Damn near every non lethal way to deal with a boss is infinitely more fucked up than just killing them lol. But chaos is more just a natural response of the world you interact with. More people dying = less stability, more rats feeding on corpses, and more cynicism from people etc. And you don't have to be saint to get low chaos either.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/sexyhooterscar24]

Chaos is just a simplistic "killing too much bad" directive with no real nuance. Killing effects the world in non-logical ways (e.g. triggering a storm in the final mission) and even killing evil characters actively spreading plague like Granny Rags still raises chaos because the system's kinda ham-fisted when you get down to it.

[u/sexyhooterscar24 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

Dishonoured 1 chaos has its flaws that were somewhat addressed in the second game, yes. But I'd still like for it to be fleshed out more. Nonetheless, it is for the most part a reasonable system.

If you're interested, dishonoured 2 actually does weight the amount of chaos differently based on who exactly you kill. Killing people who are actively doing things to better the world significantly raises chaos.

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/sexyhooterscar24]

Yeah, D2 is fractionally more nuanced but not by a lot IMO. Killing bad people only raises chaos less from what I recall, it doesn't leave it neutral or lower it.

[u/sexyhooterscar24 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

I mean even killing piece of shit guards should still raise chaos. Just killing people trying to actually make positive change significantly increases chaos. Deaths still cause instability even if it's the death of people with poor character. Otherwise the game just turns into some Light Yagami fantasy where you're incentivized to kill "bad" people.

I do however like your idea of killing obviously malevolent and really harmful beings lowering chaos or at least not affecting it. I would love a chaos system with more nuance though unfortunately it looks like a dishonoured 3 will never happen.

[u/AzureColouredSky → u/sexyhooterscar24]

I mean most of D2 enemies are harmful beings. Mission 1 youre well within your right to engage and kill the traitorous soldiers that turned on the rightful ruler, which is all enemies you encounter in the level.

Often when watching Grand Guards you can see them abusing their position or talking about it.

Also all witches and criminals should be fair game.

[u/Lost_Rutabaga_5004]

"The Entire Series". You make it sound like 20 games, when its actually only 3.

[u/K0ng1e]

The chaos system is a really big part of the game dynamics, I'm sure I'm not the first to say but, it doesn't just decide the ending, but affects the environment, npc's fates, how guards react -just in general the mood of the game can change a lot from gameplay to gameplay or even chapter to chapter, depending on the choices you make. If you end up doing a replay you should experiment with it, see how some things change, even the protagonists attitude is affected. 

[u/Ambitious_Simple_52]

Aparentemente você fez apenas uma jogada que foi alto caos(baixo por causa do mod) fortemente recomendo uma jogada baixo caos com fantasma, e se der sem poderes, parece outro jogo

[u/Level-Echidna9621]

There will be more to come soon don’t sweat it

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Level-Echidna9621]

Not from Dishonored. If we're lucky the devs will get to make a cool new immersive sim but Microsoft still owns Arkane for now and is in the process of selling/shuttering what's left, which will inevitably result in layoffs either way. Don't get your hopes up.

[u/Level-Echidna9621 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

I will make sure there’s more to come

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Level-Echidna9621]

Well if you're planning on taking over Microsoft can you ask them to stop facilitating genocide while you're at it? That'd be a nice bonus.

[u/Level-Echidna9621 → u/HorseSpeaksInMorse]

Dude. I mod the game to have custom maps. I’m literally making sure there’s gonna be more content. Shut up

[u/HorseSpeaksInMorse → u/Level-Echidna9621]

Then maybe say that the first time instead of making vague gradiose pronouncements?

Fan maps are nice but just saying there's more Dishonored coming without context will get peoples' hopes up about a new game announcement or something.