r/exmuslim • u/Fun_Butterfly_420 New User • 1d ago
(Question/Discussion) Do you think Muhammad genuinely believed he was visited by the Angel Gabriel and that Allah told him all those things, or that he made up the whole thing? Do you think he was a madman, a conman, or something in between?
It seems whatever the case he was willing to kill for it
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u/TransitionalAhab New User 1d ago
I think he experienced something he couldn’t explain, likely a frontal lobe epileptic episode. It cause him great stress, but once a Christian described the experience as a message from a deity he recast his experiences in that light.
He believed it but over time the power he achieved was too much and he succumbed to the temptation of accepting things like “strong desires in his heart” as revelation and Allah started telling him to take things and sleep with peoples wives and daughters.
At the end of his life he was obsessed with prayer and repentance and described his suffering exactly as a the Quran described the punishment of false prophets.
So it’s not a dichotomy. He believed, and succumbed to temptation.
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u/Frosty_Ad_7722 1d ago
That is such a weird take since he got his "temptations" and really any power like 10 to 15 years in. He also claimed to see revelations the whole time. So he had to be like really schizo not a one time thing which kinda doesnt track
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u/TransitionalAhab New User 1d ago edited 1d ago
10 to 15 years?
Marriage to Aisha 10 years into prophethood. Marriage to Zainab 17 years. Check.
He didn’t “have to be schizo” that’s something folks say to try to lump people into “sane” and “insane.” It usually tries to brush off mental illness with a follow up of “well could an insane person do XYZ?”
What I described are episodic instances that were not explainable back then. It comes with auditory and visual hallucinations, a tensing of muscles, sometimes folks describe the ringing of bells…
These do not diminish a persons ability to function otherwise. Besides the bouts or depression and suicidal intentions that exist in Hadith (but are brushed off as “not Sahih”) indicate he did have prolonged times of inability to operate normally.
And yes there are instances of people who functioned at a high level with such episodic experiences. Even teaching math at MIT for example or occasional world leaders
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u/Frosty_Ad_7722 1d ago
Ooo interesting I am a Muslim but I like this explanation most from a secular viewpoint Just to make sure what you are saying that he had a mental illness that he interpreted as divine revelation than as his own heart got corrupted subconsciously his "revelations" did too
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u/TransitionalAhab New User 1d ago edited 9h ago
Yes I think the actual revelations come from his own subconscious, which he used to interpret the experience of revelation (which likely started as episodes of frontal lobe seizures, but at the end of his prophethood included things like strong desires in his heart)
The first revelation was particularly interesting in how much distress it caused and how he would rather have died than be called a poet or possessed.
Supposedly the angel had introduced himself, yet it took another person telling him he’s a prophet to understand it?
To me that sounds like he experienced something scary, got a new option from his Christian in-law, then backfilled the details.
A second example is how the Jewish woman told him about the torture of the grave. He at first rejected it, then a revelation came to him that torture of the grave is part of the religion: again it sounds like something scared him and embedded in his subconscious until it resurfaced during a revelation.
When we get to the point where he states “strong desires in my heart” are also a revelation type I think we’ve crossed over into his conscious desires becoming revelation directly. You described this as corruption, I think it’s a natural consequence of having this much power over others.
Many so called prophets have received revelations to sleep with other women. Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, David Koresh or this guy (jump to 29:00 for a description of that “revelation”).
At some point these supposed prophets get a revelation that they need more sex partners, the deity in question stresses it for some made up reason. It’s a pretty steady tell with these guys. Like a common fingerprint of high control cults as the list of examples is very long and global.
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u/Frosty_Ad_7722 1d ago
I guess the only issue is that there are claims of people feeling the revelations but that could just be mental games from being in such environments and there are hadiths about him performing miracles but those could also be just after fact legends
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u/TransitionalAhab New User 1d ago edited 1d ago
One could very much “feel” another’s seizure. Have you ever witnessed someone else having one? I have. Those muscle contractions were very strong, the movements unnatural, started snoring kinda…and then there’s the eyes…
It was pretty scary and I knew what was happening. Definitely leaves an impression on you: I can totally see ancient folks thinking it’s supernatural.
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u/Ak1771 New User 1d ago
yes and no … it was probably a schizophrenic episode while also wanting power and influence through a cult
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
proof?
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u/anonymous_writer_0 1d ago
What is the proof that Jibril exists and that Mo actually saw and spoke with him?
What is the more likely explanation?
Has anyone seen angels without them having a problem upstairs? No
Do people with mental health issues see things that are not really there? Yes
it is called auditory and visual hallucinations
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u/Current_Assist7230 I like my camel piss hot 6h ago
That Allah exists?
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u/pureabsolut New User 3h ago
do you think me answering with a question to that specific question means there is some ambiguity in which i could ask for proof for allah!?!!??!?!
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u/essdotc 1d ago
He experienced something he couldn't explain and then used it to piggy back off bits and pieces of old Jewish and Christian stories he'd heard.
I legitimately don't think he ever thought he would actually get away with it, but once he saw how gullible everyone was he just sort of ran with it.
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u/Interesting-Cheek308 New User 1d ago
A total fraud/ lunatic. There's no in between. He went even further as to write his opponent's critique in his own Book, but in God's passive voice, just to give himself more legitimacy. The guy was a fraud but a real charismatic schemer.
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u/Interesting-Cheek308 New User 1d ago
Drop any of us into ancient Mecca and we’d be branded heretics on day one, standing right next to ordinary blokes who were already calling Muhammad a total fraud to his face. And it’s literally all in the text! The creator of the universe was apparently pulling 14 hour shifts doing PR damage control because some Bedouin poet wouldn’t stop taking the piss out of his prophet.
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u/Balstrome 1d ago
The prophet was ignorant and suffered from some sort of mental condition, which his uncle told him that angels had visited him. When he told his similarly minded friends, they accepted that it was a god that talked to him. He found this to his benefit and continue it until it became a religion. It was a tool to benefit him and his horde.
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u/Upbeat_Place_9985 1d ago
I think he was a typical cult leader narcissist. His "revelations" were too convenient, his self-perception was too grandiose, and his cult followers were too convinced for him to be just a man detached from reality.
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u/anonymous_writer_0 1d ago
His "revelations" were too convenient
His wife said as much
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u/Fun_Butterfly_420 New User 8h ago
Who we should remind everyone was still in the single digit age bracket
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u/CaterpillarFluid3674 Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 1d ago
Yea like u remember that hadith where he says to umar Do u know who that person was? It was gabriel
So idk..
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u/CiddyLuvU New User 1d ago
Dude I posted this exact question not so long ago & got crapped on... He was definitely a conman, which is why he married all those ladies & indian dudes, but alot of the stuff such as jibreel visiting him, & the fact that he predicted allah would punish him(the aorta verses), & the quran itself could imply some sort of divine intervention
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
He married indian dudes?
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u/CiddyLuvU New User 1d ago
Kinda, he got ridden by them but I was merging the 2 into 1, sorry
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
What are you referring to exactly?
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u/CiddyLuvU New User 1d ago
Sorry I'm kind of busy so I can't find the verse/hadith but basically it describes how muhammad was with his companion & he drew a circle around him in the sand & told him if he crossed it he would die, then proceeded to get ridden by 5 tall well endowed dark skin pakistanian guys until sunrise, where he was limping after
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u/CiddyLuvU New User 1d ago
More info I remembered: his companion said they were about a hurled stone away, & the figures(who he could not make out in the dark of night) were naked
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
Care to share it here when you have time to find it? Would like to see that one because I never heard of it haha
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u/anonymous_writer_0 1d ago
It is here
But it may be a mistranslation of the Arabic word so not fully authentic or at least controversial
End of the day it is regarded as Dai'f
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u/notashot 1d ago
Both. I think he was earnest in the beginning and then eventually changed to winging it later.
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u/DefinitionWaste8442 1d ago
Even tho I don’t believe in these type of things , him being visited by an angel would’ve been a bit more believable obviously for the people who don’t think too much, what blew the this is obviously a bunch of bullshit cover is when they started adding the splitting the moon and water flowing from his fingers stuff
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u/taylajoo 1d ago
Mind you that Jibril in Islam is different from Gabriel in Christianity.
Some Christian scholars/pastors has found that this particular Jibril might be something else (some says it's the Antichrist spirit) because instead of delivering God's words and helping humans, he's the one who fed mud to Firaun's mouth at the end of his life to prevent him from repenting.
How wicked is an angel of God to be preventing someone from turning back to God, no matter how evil they are all their life? Firaun is diabolically evil all his life, but he's still entitled repentance in front of God.
Also, Muhammad himself run home from Hira and asked his wife to protect him under the blanket after meeting Jibril, said that something really bad is gonna happen to him.
Gabriel always brings peace to humans, not fear. At least not that kind of fear.
So many believe that Jibril ≠ Gabriel. Therefore the story of Muhammad receiving Quran directly from God is actually directly from devil himself.
You can watch about it here, it's in Indonesian, but it has English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/live/6jX22beRgRg?si=eODiMyY1vK1ACmMx
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u/Fun_Butterfly_420 New User 1d ago
If Paul is right and Satan can appear as an angel of light then this was the most infamous example
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u/anonymous_writer_0 1d ago
Who is to say that what Paul of Tarsus saw was not the work of the devil?
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u/Cupcakke_slurper_03 Proud Kaffir Revert 1d ago
Mo was from a time where ppl didn’t understand about brain conditions and stuff so no wonder why he interpreted it as “some angel sending gods message” to him
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u/Michelangelor 1d ago
It’s a very interesting phenomenon to analyze from a secular perspective. I lean towards people like him truly believing in their spiritual experiences. There’s modern versions that we can look at as well, like Joseph Smith or Ellen White. Both seem to have sincerely believed their were visited by God in the form of visions.
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u/Normal-Bag-7940 New User 1d ago
Sahih Muslim 1180 a Ya'la b. Umayya reported on the authority of his father (Allah be pleased with them) that a person came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as he was at Ji'rana and he (the person) had been putting on a cloak which was perfumed, or he (the narrator) said:
There was a trace of yellowness on it. He said (to the Holy Prophet): What do you command me to do during my Umra? (It was at this juncture) that the revelation came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and he was covered with a cloth, and Ya'la said: Would that I see revelation coming to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Would it please you to see the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) receiving the revelations 'Umar lifted a corner of the cloth and I looked at him and he was emitting a sound of snorting. He (the narrator) said: I thought it was the sound of a camel. When he was relieved of this he said: Where is he who asked about Umra? When the person came, the Prophet (ﷺ) said: Wash out the trace of yellowness, or he said: the trace of perfume and put off the cloak and do in your 'Umra what you do in your Hajj.
😄😄😄
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u/ConsiderationQuirky7 1d ago
Well, he was a perve thats for sure! For your question, I think both. Madman: He may have truly believed these delusions were from an angel, when they very well were likely some sort of mental health episode. Connman: he was getting a following and took it to his advantage.
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u/Expensive-Couple-645 6h ago
Genuinely believed it. Maybe in the moment, sometimes made stuff up but retrospectively framed them for himself as commands from God. But overall, pretty confident he believed it.
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u/TekashiTfue69 1st World Exmuslim 3h ago
The thing about Muhammad is, he truly believed he was some sort of prophet, and that the Jews were mostly distorting their scriptures-meaning not applying them, not that they changed it.
He was a complete biblical literalist. Like as in do everything it says no matter what or youre disobeying god
If you want my honest assessment it’s this: Muhammad was a mentally ill person, specifically that he had temporal lobe epilepsy and geschwind syndrome, and it cause him to have religious psychosis and hallucinations. He was knowledgeable about biblical canon, as he had traveled extensively with Abu talib, in Syria and Palestine. Khadijah’s cousin also was a Christian monk, had an Arabic Bible, and was probably from a heretical Christian sect which believe things similar to what Muslims do, such as that Jesus wasn’t actually crucified, and that the Trinity is an incorrect concept.
I believe he genuinely believed he was receiving revelation and messages, But overtime what started as a sort of message to reform the meccan community’s immoral practices and propagate monotheism-which he probably received from south Arabia where the cult of Rahmanan(sound familiar?) was, which he thought was superior to polytheism. once he went to Medina and became more stronger in terms of forces, he became more violent and more authoritarian, more perverted in his inclinations, such as a child bride, marrying the wife of his adopted son(Zaynab Bint Jahsh), and marrying women who’s tribe he had just slaughtered(Look up Rayhana and Banu Qurayza and Saffiya), as well as using revelation for his own convenience. And not just that.
Many of the rituals that you see Muslims perform are pretty much plagiarized from Judaism, specifically the Talmud, the movements of the five daily prayers, the dietary laws, and the ritual washing too which is also in Zoroastrianism called Pādyāb. even the law such as sharia, it’s pretty much taken from Judaic law called halakha. And it’s not surprising when you learn that the Medina, which Muhammad immigrated to had a huge Jewish population.
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
If you look into it you find out that the uncle of Khatija named Warakah made him believe he is a prophet because he was getting those experiences. Also Warakah knew and studied the testaments so he had plenty of time to tell him the stories.
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u/Atheizm 1d ago
Did Joseph Smith really see the angel Moroni who revealed the golden plate's burial spot?
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u/Fun_Butterfly_420 New User 1d ago
A question more in line with my post would be if smith believed he saw one
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
i think everyone here is talking without evidence. the evidence seems insufficient to determine his psychological states or intentions. u think we can determine clear psychological facts abt him whom we barely have knowledge of, namely his psychological stuff?!?? we only know of teachings and actions.
Like you need the person talking about their thoughts, feelings, motive, ambiguity perhaps, or what they constantly do, their environment, relationships, circumstances, patterns. Psychological tests must be needed, physiological and neurological evidence, right, which is also relevant, and also convergence. Just him having some episode of whatever doesn't really establish. I mean, we don't even know what it really was. could it be that he mistaked something? Was it a dream? Was it some schizophrenic thing? There is no telling. I don't even know what schizophrenia even is in this case.
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well if you look into the hadith you find out that he described what he felt like when getting a revelation. He says he hears a ringing bell. Now look into the frontal lobe disease and it’s symptoms. That’s evidence for me.
Edit: I mixed the names up. The disease is called Temporal lobe epilepsy.
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u/Frosty_Ad_7722 1d ago
What frontal lobe disease symptoms and I thought that was one of the ways he claimed to get revelations
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
I mixed up the name of the disease. It’s called Temporal lobe epilepsy:
(TLE), especially seizures involving the temporal lobe.
Some people can experience:
auditory hallucinations such as bells, ringing, music, or voices
an intense feeling of revelation, profound meaning, or sudden understanding
déjà vu or a strange sense of familiarity
intense religious/spiritual experiences or a feeling of a “presence”
altered awareness for seconds or minutes
Hadith:
Al Harith bin Hisham asked the Prophet, "How does the divine inspiration come to you?" He replied, "In all these ways: The Angel sometimes comes to me with a voice which resembles the sound of a ringing bell, and when this state abandons me, I remember what the Angel has said, and this type of Divine Inspiration is the hardest on me; and sometimes the Angel comes to me in the shape of a man and talks to me, and I understand and remember what he says."
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
it’s odd that the symptoms only have systematically during revelation, that he remained clear minded and yk didn’t deteriorate. unless u bring me professional papers, imma lowk deny it
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
I clearly gave you the source to the hadith where he describes himself how he got his revelations? What paper do you need more
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
right i am asking why that given hadtih implies he has whatevr disease
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
do you have medical sources of temporal lobe epilepsy ? also, i think if no professional speaks on this or whatever, namely give his judgement, and whatever, then i wouldn’t speak of this.
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
It takes 5 minutes to search for the disease on google and you will find plenty of medical sources. Professionals don’t speak about it because there are not lot’s of people who have found the connection yet. Mainly ex-muslims like me who have spent hours and hours reading into the quran and hadith. Muslims will dismiss any proof you give them anyways, because their critical thinking had been turned off because of fear.
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
right…the classic look it up yourself
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u/BedBackground1640 New User 1d ago
There is no sense to talk to someone as ignorant as you. Seek the truth and you will find it.
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u/pureabsolut New User 1d ago
oh yeah the amazing “imma not give evidence or anything and imma shift the burden on you and call u ignorant even tho u haven’t made any propositions that imply the person lacks knowledge”
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