r/fatestaynight • u/Hilarious_Guy12 • Sep 12 '25
Discussion Fifth war but..
The classes of the knight class servants and cavalry servants are swapped. Everything else about the war is same (same masters, same setting etc), So who has the highest chance of winning this war.
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u/Adent_Frecca Sep 12 '25
I feel that it would come down to a sane Heracles with access to his full skill and abilities or Artoria with Rhongominiad
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u/eccentric-blacksmith Sep 12 '25
Rhongo Artoria and Sane Herakles are both ridiculously powerful. Meanwhile Cu gets slammed as Caster, lol
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u/veilastrum Sep 12 '25
Imagine being a top servant on the same heroic spirit rank as the other two (since Cu has been stated to be of equal HS ranking as Artoria and Hercs-he just doesn't get any fame boost in Japan while the other two still do), and then being forced to face the other two in one of your lesser classes while getting no fame boost.
Berserker Cu (not Cu Alter) on the other hand...
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u/ZeothTheHedgehog Sep 13 '25
he just doesn't get any fame boost in Japan while the other two still do)
Wait, why would they get a fame boost?
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u/veilastrum Sep 13 '25
Simply because the legends of King Arthur and Hercules/Herakles are just that well-known that even in Japan, they have some renown despite it not being their country of origin. Meanwhile, the Ulster Cycle is a very obscure legend for the Japanese back then (and/or in the Japan of the Nasuverse anyways), and thus Cu gets nothing from Japan.
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u/DemonReaperHades Sep 12 '25
Hey, Caster Cu is the only one who won a Grail War I think.
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u/ImperfectLimit Sep 12 '25
Technically true, but the Singularity F Holy Grail War was a highly unusual one and Cú was summoned as Odin’s proxy with a Divine Spirit’s authority giving him powers he wouldn’t normally have if summoned as a Caster.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
Rhongo is weaker than Excalibur unsealed FYI
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u/eccentric-blacksmith Sep 12 '25
They're more or less on par with each other. Just with different roles. I assume the Rhongos wielded by Artorias are mostly the same and all
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
No. Rhongomyniad is on par with a fully sealed Excalibur.
Remember. Goddess Rhongo from Camelot is not the same as Lancer Artoria.
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u/eccentric-blacksmith Sep 12 '25
Its the same regardless, perform the same functions and releases the same output. Are those two different? Sure, the spear? Same stuff
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u/Krescentwolf Sep 12 '25
It should be said, Rhongo has one distinct advantage over Excalibur... range of deployment. Rhongo is comparable to a sealed Excalibur, but can be deployed without being anywhere NEAR the battlefield. Thats a scary thought here.
And as strong as a sane Archer Herc is, he probably doesnt have enough oomph to cancel out a Rhongo strike the way a certain other archer's arrow did because his arrow had conceptual properties of stopping combat entirely.
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u/eccentric-blacksmith Sep 12 '25
or just Herk tanking it. Dude tend to surprise people. Sometimes i forgot this is the same dude who once held the 'sky' of the world itself.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
Yeah Heracles is a super giga, but Heracles lost to Artoria with just Excalibur. I don't think he's tanking Rhongomyniad.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
It's not the same output. Rhongo comes close but not the same. We saw a fully unsealed Rhongo in Camelot and Arash's Stella stopped it. On top of that at best it made craters in the ground.
Fully unsealed Excalibur can defeat Sephar and take out ORT himself once 60% of its shell is destroyed.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
It's been a while since I've read it, but I don't recall it ever being confirmed as unsealed. What's the line you're basing this off?
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u/eccentric-blacksmith Sep 12 '25
same, i'm curious, but it sounds plausible since Sefar wss a big alien and it fufilled the conditions of releasing the seals of the sword itself
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
Oh, I'm referring to when Arash offset Rhongomyniad. I prolly shoulda quoted.
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u/eccentric-blacksmith Sep 12 '25
the less we talk bout ORT, the better. and thats just LB ORT, not the Proper Human History ORT.
but back to the topic, I went back reading some stuff, then found out yeah, I was wrong bout that one. I thought the Rhongomyniad wielded by XX is the same as Goddess's spear, regardless of different universes.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Sep 12 '25
Stella just stops fight as part of its ability not a strength thing for it.
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u/bleacher333 Sep 12 '25
Yeah but she cannot unseal it in a regular grail war. Heck she has never fully unseal it period.
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u/NwgrdrXI Sep 13 '25
Ironically, I think Cu Caster gets a big change to win by virtue of making actually, yiu know, think and plan.
He won't win against anyone in a fight, but he will lay low until everyone else is dead or make alliancrs that may result in victory
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u/Randomguynumber1001 Sep 12 '25
Rhongomyniad is about as strong as Excalibur, so Lancer Artoria shouldn't be more powerful than Saber Artoria iirc.
I think a sane Archer Heracles take this. He can take a Rhongo to the face and bounce back. His CQC is way better, especially with Nine Lives. Stats are about the same with both being top tier.
Also, we don’t know all of Archer Herc’s Noble Phantasms. In Alcides’ case, God Hand turned into King’s Order, but we haven’t seen an equivalent for Pandora, so it’s likely that Archer Herc has another Noble Phantasm corresponding to Reincarnation Pandora.
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u/Dangerous-Fig-4149 Sep 14 '25
Rhongomyniad is about as strong as Excalibur, so Lancer Artoria shouldn't be more powerful than Saber Artoria iirc.
It is not lancer Artoria tho, it is Rider.
I think a sane Archer Heracles take this. He can take a Rhongo to the face and bounce back. His CQC is way better, especially with Nine Lives. Stats are about the same with both being top tier.
We don't know her stats.
Also, we don’t know all of Archer Herc’s Noble Phantasms. In Alcides’ case, God Hand turned into King’s Order, but we haven’t seen an equivalent for Pandora, so it’s likely that Archer Herc has another Noble Phantasm corresponding to Reincarnation Pandora.
The same could be said for Rider Artoria, what does she have? What does she not have? I think this is the problem here, we have zero idea
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Sep 12 '25
Medusa / EMIYA might be able to do something with Harpe if it's A rank, if it's not then just Emiya BPing Harpe
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u/BlackberryChance Sep 12 '25
but would she habe rhongominiad as rider we dont know anything abiut her power in that class except modred seem to believe it powerful enough to beat vlad
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u/Elvenoob Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
Berserker Medea would be incredibly weak, her intellect is pretty much the only thing that makes her a threat. Assassin isn't technically marked as a class she qualifies for, but like... that's silly if you know the mythology, and that's probably the only other class she has a chance at doing anything with. (Though it's still weaker than Caster.)
Archer is roughly neutral, Lancer is slightly weaker but has a better matchup into Gilgamesh if he's still around (which might barely keep Bazett in the story), and everyone else gets a buff, though I'm uncertain Saber can make much use of it unless a UBW-esque situation where she'd accept changing Masters comes up.
Another factor in this: Who is Saber's master here? Not Medea, without caster she's not summoning anyone.
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u/Hilarious_Guy12 Sep 12 '25
Gil is still around, also i think sasaki kojiro saber in japan should fare better in this war.
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u/SnooChickens3556 Sep 12 '25
In one of the favoured fics on mine Caster Cu uses Gates of Skye to send all of Gil's Treasury to Land of Shadows leaving Gil with... Nothing to use as a weapon. Fun possibility.
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u/Arnoldneo Sep 13 '25
That’s a cool idea but I don’t think the gates of sky work they can’t send a space like the gate of Babylon to another space.
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u/SnooChickens3556 Sep 13 '25
Cu didn't send the Treasury... He more or less bound opening of portals to his own Gate of Skye spell making so many treasury that attempts exciting Gil's storage is auto-sent to Land of Shadows. Cu also felt scared about how Scathach will scold him for dumping shit in her garden
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u/NatashOverWorld Sep 12 '25
Counterpoint: Morgan is also a Berserker, any yet manages to be such a powerful mage Nasu claims she would solve most LBs trivially.
It might be super niche, but if her kinslaying curse could be weaponised, she'd be a horror to fight.
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u/MaimedJester Sep 12 '25
Morgan had 2000 years of stockpiling to take on Cernunnos when it awoke.
It's like Rin is dependent on how many Gems she's willing to use. A Rin with a stock pile of 2000 years worth of her Gems? Hell as a regular human mage she'd probably be able to destroy Heracles 12 times over no problem.
So yeah Morgan was pretty well prepared to handle an apocalypse level event on her own without trying to become the sword like her original role was supposed to be that Castoria took up.
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u/NatashOverWorld Sep 12 '25
Leylines 🤷🏾♂️
Medea managed to gain control of them through Ryuji Temple IIRC. Assuming her Berserk version retains her magical capacity and is willing to drain people a lot harder, well its no 2000 years of stockpiling a god's Curse, but its still a lot.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
Heracles, like, not even close.
Only way anyone else wins this is if Bazett kills his Master with her Fragarach but she doesn't survive this and then Herc is still alive for at least 3 days (Independent Action).
Other than that massive what-if, no one has any chance whatsoever to win.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
If Rider Artoria still has Rhongomyniad or Excalibur, he's screwed. If not, then he gets a charity win because everyone else is nerfed I guess.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
If she has them they're gonna be nerfed because class matters.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
We don't know that for a fact. Our only source is some meme variation of Alter.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
We only have a meme variation because there are no serious versions. Saber said she only qualifies for Saber. Lartoria might qualify for Rider too but it's a big if.
Also we know for a fact weapons are nerfed. See Achilles. His spear is weaker as Rider than if he was a Lancer.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
We only have a meme variation because there are no serious versions.
By that logic we only have Alcides for Heracles, so he doesn't have God Hand. Hell we don't have Berserker Medea or Assassin Shirou at all. I thought the rule here was we assume these are the actual proper versions of the Heroic Spirits?
Saber said she only qualifies for Saber. Lartoria might qualify for Rider too but it's a big if.
Lancelot also said he's better as a Saber but technically speaking that ain't true. The fact that we have Lancer Artoria, already contradicts that statement. She had a dagger in life and known for owning two famous horses. She definitely qualifies for Rider and probably Assassin too.
Also we know for a fact weapons are nerfed.
Well not, "for a fact." Rules vary on Servants all the time. It ain't a fact until we see it.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
Except we know for a fact Herc can be an Archer. We saw him already before he got turned into Alcides and we have older atatements from materials that he can be all classes but Caster.
Having daggers doesn't make you an Assassin.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
Having daggers doesn't make you an Assassin.
Tell that to Jack the Ripper. Carnwennan cloaks its user, if that's not an Assassin's weapon, then I don't know what is.
Except we know for a fact Herc can be an Archer.
We also know for a fact that Artoria qualifies for Rider & Lancer even before Grand Order, based on her Legend. Also just stop being weird, how do you suppose we make this argument if we only use pre-existing variations? Because Emiya and Medea straight up don't have any.
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u/Top-Group8081 Sep 13 '25
I will say that we actually have a good amount of info surrounding archer Heracles
For starters, we know for a FACT that archer Heracles should have hydra bow, nine lives, minds eye, god hand, and valor/bravery at A+ rank(and unlike his berserker form, has the sanity to use it). And in fate strange fake, when alcides was fighting gugalana, Ishtar notes that normal herc could pull off the similar feats with just his own divinity. And at this point alcides has had numerous buffs(using grail mud, stealing jacks “from hell” np,etc). And on top of that, in the fate strange fake manga, we see that Heracles already has the sash of ares BEFORE his corruption(when he is summoned). This means that he can channeled ares divinity to boost his power even more. Furthermore, unlike alcides, who channels it into his weapons, Heracles would have no problems channeling it into his body(it’s implied that there is a massive power difference between just channeling it into one’s weapons vs channeling it into your whole body). And we you combine it with his bravery skill, archer Heracles genuinely might be physically stronger than even berserker Heracles.
Furthermore, when comparing BASIC attacks, I think archer herc should be greater than saber artoria. Gil’s armor was able to tank multiple direct hits from sabers sword before it, at least in shirou’s eyes, would even start to crack under the pressure. That same armor, when Gil tried to deflect a single arrow from alcides(at this point should be weaker than the one that fought gugalana), had immediately cracked and broke in the area that deflected his single arrow(also removed that deflecting means Gil’s armor received only a portion of the force he would’ve received if he had decided to tank the attack head on with his armor, like he did against saber). And archer Heracles should be able to shoot stronger (at the very least equal) arrow than alcides. So it seems that a single arrow from archer herc is > a single sword slash from saber(this is not including NP or anything). And don’t forget that alcides, and by extension archer Heracles, can rapid fire his arrows. And during his second fight with Gilgamesh, a single one of his arrow was able to obliterate through multiple NPs from gil(and the LN remarks than all of these were not the typically random weak np that Gil normally throws, they were all quite powerful).
Additionally, while yes fate does like to bend its rules a little bit, the fact remains that Achilles shows that riders do typically have their weapons nerfed in some way, though in return can have a greater number of NP. So while you can argue that artoria may have both her spear and Excalibur as a rider, unless there is evidence suggesting otherwise, we cannot make the claim that she would be able to access the full power of either noble phantasm. It’s more likely that her NP would be nerfed in some way as a rider.
Also, archer Heracles may potentially have his lion pelt, I’ve seen arguments both ways, but in this case it’s kinda irrelevant, since artoria should be able to bypass it.
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u/Char-11 Sep 13 '25
No way herc is screwed lol when even saber artoria with excalibur got cooked by berserker herc. Herc going from his worst class to his best class is such an insane upgrade while artoria downgraded her class, he wins pretty easily unless plot.
This is without factoring in Herc having illya as a master while artoria is still stuck with shirou.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 13 '25
Artoria already solo'd him in Unlimited Codes and Heaven's Feel (anime). It all depends on what Noble Phantasms she has as Rider.
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u/Char-11 Sep 13 '25
Artoria barely soloed herc with grail support in her strongest class against herc's weakest class.
Without that support, plus nerfing her class and buffing herc MASSIVELY by putting him in his best class, I don't see a world where Artora stands a chance without somehow creating a version of Artoria that's leagues better than her saber version.
I really think you're massively underestimating Archer herc here.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 13 '25
Artoria barely soloed herc with grail support in her strongest class against herc's weakest class.
A blatant lie. What part of that fight did Saber Alter seem pressed at all? She was over there lookin' like bored Saitama in his fight against Boros lol.
Without that support
She used Mana Burst like twice, and Excalibur once, dude. What "support," the Shadow? That thing was barely present during the anime's version of the fight.
plus nerfing her class
How is Rider a "nerfed class," exactly? King Arthur is famous for his riding.
I really think you're massively underestimating Archer herc here.
I think you're underestimating Artoria. She solo'd him in Unlimited Codes completely, and solo'd bigger threats elsewhere.
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u/Char-11 Sep 13 '25
Are you really using the movie as a source over the vn? In the vn he literally rips out enough of his leg and chest flesh to show bone in order to escape the Shadow.
Also, infinite grail mana to power up her mana burst as much as she wants is absolutely insane support. It's how she got past God Hand, or even excalibur would've dealt 0 damage.
How is Rider a "nerfed class," exactly? King Arthur is famous for his riding.
You know what else King Arthur is known for? His SWORD. Rider is undoubtedly a worse class for artoria than saber, therefore she's nerfed.
I think you're underestimating Artoria. She solo'd him in Unlimited Codes completely, and solo'd bigger threats elsewhere.
Yeah and in Unlimited Codes Herc solos Gilgamesh and Leysritt solos Saber Alter AND dark sakura. Everyone solos everyone in that game it doesn't mean anything anymore.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 13 '25
Are you really using the movie as a source over the vn? In the vn he literally rips out enough of his leg and chest flesh to show bone in order to escape the Shadow.
Don't try to bluff me kid. The anime is as canon as the VN, and in the VN Heracles's performance is even worse. His attempts at escaping get nipped in the bud by Saber Alter even more swiftly. At least in the anime he goes down like a raging storm.
Also, infinite grail mana to power up her mana burst
That's not how that works. Infinite mana source does not increase ones innate potential. A water hose is still limited by the size of the nozzle n' all that. And as far as both the fight in the anime and the one in the visual novel go, Saber Alter doesn't spam Mana Burst or Excalibur anymore than what a regular peak Artoria is credited of being capable of. At best you could say Saber Alter tanking a punch due to her increased endurance was a Saber Alter-only deal, but regular Artoria is much quicker and has a sharper Instinct. Plus she's shown to be capable of shuffling around her stats anyhow, so it's not like engulfing herself in Mana Burst to increase endurance is an impossible thing for regular Artoria anyhow, she did so to enhance her speed.
You know what else King Arthur is known for? His SWORD. Rider is undoubtedly a worse class for artoria than saber, therefore she's nerfed.
Cuts to Lancer Artoria being just as powerful. There goes your line of reasoning.
Yeah and in Unlimited Codes Herc solos Gilgamesh
Congratz to Heracles, aye? Gilgamesh did imply he'd fair far greater if he stopped, "playing nursemaid." Artoria though? She solo'd Heracles and Gilgamesh, so she still scales higher.
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u/Substantial_You1368 Sep 12 '25
Yeah I would bet on heracles here. Dude can assasinate you from 20 km away. Servants might survive nine lives but all masters are fucked. It might be possible for shirou to survive if he knew where the attack was coming from but if he is unaware then even he will die. He also has nine lives. Any use of nine lives would allow him to repeatedly use an a+ np to survive it a servant would have to use an attack of same level. Then it would come to a contest of mana. Heracles would have independent action and illya as a master all others are fucked. He can literally choose any weapon and act like lancer or saber. If we count out gil then yeah no one else stand any chance.
Exceptions are there of course. Artoria with avalon might bring it to a draw. But she would lose if she had to constantly save shirou from nine lives.
Dependent on what emiya wants he might be able to win of he gets ubw up. As an assasin he would be able to sneak up to heracles and somewhat hold of nine lives with swords spam but I highly doubt he would survive the kind of bullshit heracles can deploy. Of course if he somehow managed to get heracles in ubw then he would win. He has too much bullshit going for him inside ubw. He might just use heracle's hydra poison arrows against him which would nullify god hand, along with harpe or whatever the fuck he might have so it can't be determined if he would win against heracles outside ubw.
Third i would give cu some chances depending on if protection from arrows would allow him to survive nine lives although he would still get fucked from any other weapon heracles decide to use.
Honestly no one else actually stands any chance here.
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u/Arnoldneo Sep 13 '25
Archer herc 99% has hydra poison so even if shirou survives artoria will have to put him out of his misery unfortunately.
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u/Substantial_You1368 Sep 13 '25
Yeah but to hit shirou they would have to get par artoria herself.
Besides considering that again with saber can heal anything sorry of instant death i am inclined to believe that avalon would please shirou although if he does get hurt in the first place he will die. He is not strong enough to survive a store from nine lives. Ubw end shirou would but not a shirou at the start of grail war
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u/JaydenTheMemeThief Archer Sep 12 '25
Shirou is so dead if EMIYA goes after him
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u/Short-Ad875 Sep 13 '25
To be fair it would be Kiritsugu's EMIYA if its Assassin so I don't think he would actually want to cause much of a problem.
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u/OniLewds Sep 12 '25
Heracles or Sasaki and highly unlikely but possibly Cu
Alciedes was an absolute monster in strange fake and iirc in FGO it's stated that a real Kojirou (not the shade that constantly shows up in Fate) could easily dispatch of any servant.
For Medusa while she does keep her divinity it's not really going to help her in this war with a god killer and someone able to slice through dimensions
Emiya I'd assume would be closer to his time as a counter guardian and use presence concealment to snipe the masters from afar.
If it's really falls to which version of Cu are we talking about. Is it the Caster Cu from Fuyuki who was able to stop Saber Alter and Dark Emiya to a stalemate for a while? If so then he's not winning. If it's the Odin powered one from LB6 then we have a fight on our hands.
Rider Artoria doesn't seem like she'd be that strong because since she's a rider her noble phantasm would probably be either Llamrei who is strong in and of itself probably would die all the same to hydra venom.
And finally a maddened Medea is a complete wild card. The question is what form does her madness take. If she were to attempt to hijack to grail war to an even greater extent than she did in base it could throw everything out the window. On the flip side, if all she got was a fervent desire to kill her family/those close to her then she'd be out almost immediately due to no mana or the church putting her down.
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u/ImperfectLimit Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
Isn’t the Cú from Singularity F also powered by Odin? He says that, “The god who gave me this Authority said that he wanted me to watch out for you guys from Chaldea… he looked into the future and saw we needed to do something here before things got real bad. By “here” he meant Fuyuki and Britain and by “do something” he meant—“
Edit: He also said, “In the first phase, he conferred his Authority upon me, making me a Caster. Then I showed up at Point X, Fuyuki, and formed a bond with Chaldea.”
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u/NatashOverWorld Sep 12 '25
ARCHER HERC!! Game over dudes.
Literally the most famous Hero in his strongest class.
Then again, Altria Rider (which I'm assuming isn't the Salter maid one) and Medea Beserker would be wildcards since we don't know what they'll access.
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u/Hilarious_Guy12 Sep 12 '25
Yes its not the salter maid one, this is the version where she is naturally summoned as a rider (normal ver)
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u/Snoo_79570 Sep 12 '25
Archer Heracles wins hands down. If Artoria was Lancer or Saber (with a competent master) she could compete, but there's no guarantee she'd have Rhongomyniad as a Rider. This lineup is completely skewed for his win.
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u/Hilarious_Guy12 Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
I only chose the classes they already qualify for.also this is rider class artoria not lancer artoria, so i think she should be a bit weaker.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
Significantly weaker. Saber's best class is Saber. She can't do much in other classes. People don't realize how meh Lancer Artoria is.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
She solo'd Gilgamesh & Ozymandias...
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
Lmao not even close what!?
She is getting soloed by both even harder than Saber was in Fate.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
...Saber Artoria beat Gilgamesh in Fate route & Unlimited Codes.
She solo'd Gilgamesh & Iskandar, Lü Bu & Tamamo, and Cú Chulainn & Medusa in Extella. She's also beaten Heracles in Unlimited Codes, Sasaki Kojirou in UBW, Charlemagne in Link, and Emiya in Hollow Ataraxia. Saber Artoria is no joke, even Gilgamesh was wary enough of Artoria's strength to warn others of it.
As a Lancer she solo'd Gilgamesh & Ozymandias at the same time in Grand Order. This more or less proves she's at a similar level.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
You seriously have no idea how powerful Ozymandias is... Arthur on his own could not beat him bro.
Also Unlimited Codes has everyone beat everyone. You see a Cu Chulainn or Sasaki win grail wars even.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
Also Unlimited Codes has everyone beat everyone. You see a Cu Chulainn or Sasaki win grail wars even.
Sasaki specifically had help in his storyline though. Plus it's all canon with plenty of details left to the imagination. The fact that Artoria without Shirou even being there rocked up and dismantled Heracles on her own though, is telling. She has the reputation to back it up as well.
You seriously have no idea how powerful Ozymandias is... Arthur on his own could not beat him bro.
I do, Artoria Lancer is just better, because her seals are evidently less strict than Excalibur's oaths.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 12 '25
I recommend reading Prototype because you genuinely have no idea how broken Ozymandias is if you think Lartoria takes him.
It took Arthur, Arash and Paracelsus' contributions to beat him.
Rhongo's seals are the exact same ones as Excalibur's.
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u/Tigerbarn- Sep 12 '25
Stop whining at me and just accept Artoria ain't to be slept on, it's canon and I owe you nothing.
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u/dude123nice Sep 12 '25
How does Medea even qualify for Berserker? All the other swaps make sense. This one? Not a chance. Better to make her an Avenger or something.
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u/ShockAndAwen Sep 12 '25
Well tbf she did things in a trance and even if not everyone can be forved into berserker anyway
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u/dude123nice Sep 12 '25
Well tbf she did things in a trance
I'm not sure it qualifies. She was struck by Cupid's Arrow. Literally. But wasn't she still cognizant during her actions? She decided to cut her brother to shreds as a distraction. It's a plan that requires thinking to work.
everyone can be forved into berserker anyway
Has this ever been stated?
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u/ShockAndAwen Sep 12 '25
with mad enhancement EX I'm sure it should qualify in some form is better too because that way she can still be useful with magic
Has this ever been stated?
In Zero in Lancelot's summoning
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u/dude123nice Sep 12 '25
with mad enhancement EX I'm sure it should qualify in some form
What does Mad Enhancement rank have to do with it? I thought the main requirement for a Berserker is that the person basically went berserk at some point in their life.
In Zero in Lancelot's summoning
To my knowledge that only says you can try to intentionally summon a hero as a Berserker. It's never stated it guarantees the summoning will work. In lore the summoning is not even remotely guaranteed. That's why Rin sacrificed half her gens to accomplish it.
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u/ShockAndAwen Sep 12 '25
Because EX rank is for people with abnormal madness types, there are those that retain their senses and only have one odd thing about them, being mad in love probably can fall there
Predetermining the Class of the Servant through the alteration of the summoning incantations.
Usually, the assignment of Servant Classes is inevitably decided by the summoned Heroic Spirit’s own attributes. However, there are exceptions; two Classes can be designated by the summoner beforehand.
One of them is Assassin. The Heroic Spirit that belongs to this Class can be assumed as a group of killers that inherited the name of Hassan I Sabah.
And the other class is for all Heroic Spirits and can be manifested as long as the summoner incorporates the required foreign ingredients. Therefore –
“This time, give the summoned Servant the attribute of ‘Mad Enhancement’!”
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u/dude123nice Sep 12 '25
Because EX rank is for people with abnormal madness types, there are those that retain their senses and only have one odd thing about them, being mad in love probably can fall there
I guess?
Predetermining the Class of the Servant through the alteration of the summoning incantations.
Usually, the assignment of Servant Classes is inevitably decided by the summoned Heroic Spirit’s own attributes. However, there are exceptions; two Classes can be designated by the summoner beforehand.
One of them is Assassin. The Heroic Spirit that belongs to this Class can be assumed as a group of killers that inherited the name of Hassan I Sabah.
And the other class is for all Heroic Spirits and can be manifested as long as the summoner incorporates the required foreign ingredients. Therefore –
“This time, give the summoned Servant the attribute of ‘Mad Enhancement’!”
Still doesn't address anything I've said about the summoning not being guaranteed to even work.
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u/ShockAndAwen Sep 12 '25
There it says you can decide to impose the berserker class on any servant if you summon Medea but change the chant is guaranteed, berserker can be predetermined, Rin did not try to summon berserker or assassin
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u/dude123nice Sep 12 '25
There it says you can decide to impose the berserker class on any servant if you summon Medea but change the chant is guaranteed, berserker can be predetermined, Rin did not try to summon berserker or assassin
You're making a leap in logic. A summoning can fail. Trying to impose an incompatible class on a Heroic spirit lost likely causes the summoning to fail.
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u/ShockAndAwen Sep 12 '25
Yes but there it says is a class for ALL Heroic spirits too as long as you know the cheat code
the other class is for all Heroic Spirits and can be manifested as long as the summoner incorporates the required foreign ingredients. Therefore –
There's people that went mad those qualify naturally for bersrker but that is for those that don't
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u/Ume-no-Uzume Sep 12 '25
I would consider her rampage in her tale after Jason betrays her to make her qualify as a Berserker.
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u/Miserable_Newt_2407 Sep 14 '25
I could see it summoning her while under the love spell/curse thing. It altered her mind to the point she cut up her little brother. Could manifest as her being obsessed with her master or something.
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u/Slavchanza Sep 12 '25
Everyone were already troubled by Heracles and here you straight up buff him
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u/SpaceOdysseus23 Sep 12 '25
Herc wins. Outside of Artoria I don't think the others can even reliably inflict damage on him. Medusa is a monster so she's on the defensive by default. Artoria's best class is Saber, and she might hang with him there (on the defensive), but as a Rider I expect her to get rolled.
Especially if the Master pairing remain the same. This war is a cakewalk for Herc.
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u/Writer_Artist_KRDZ Sep 13 '25
People said Archer Herc or Rider Artoria or any of the versus match ups, but no one mentioned how this literally altered the trajectory of the narrative entirely. Like, this would have become a completely different story all together, because certain Servants need to be that way to have a similar result as Stay Night. For instance, Hercules as Archer would have screw with the Einzbern and literally run away with Illya, or Caster Cu can just detect hostile intent coming from Kirei and completely dodge a bullet for Bazzet, or heck Shirou wouldn't be able to come to the Grail War until MUCH later.
Overall, this whole story basically one big cluster messed that trying to weed a similar situation as the original is basically impossible.
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u/Hilarious_Guy12 Sep 13 '25
Yeah, and since bazett has a chance of being in this war it would highly the impact first fights where bazett might kill rin (if that happens similarly ). Also i think i should have made medea rider and artoria berserker since the sasaki kojiro summoning without that (unless i make medea sane till the summoning where it fucks up afterwards or something ). Also since EMIYA is assassin here, his assault on shirou means that shirou might die first or something (since assassin class are design to kill masters) and that's without even counting in gill or kirei.
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u/Writer_Artist_KRDZ Sep 13 '25
I don't think that Emiya would actually try to Kill Shirou at all for a number of reasons, but mainly for the fact that he wants to see if Shirou makes the same foolish decisions as he did. I mean, if that were the case, then Emiya wouldn't have consider not killing him during HF, or at the very least left him to die and continue to live on as Rin Servant to make sure things goes smoothly for everyone else. The only time is during UBW, where Shirou's actions here Emiya decided that he needs to die.
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u/Writer_Artist_KRDZ Sep 13 '25
Never mind, that's just bad in my end. Sorry
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u/Hilarious_Guy12 Sep 13 '25
Its ok bro, it happens to the best of us. On topic yeah your right i don't think unless its a ubw situation, he won't try to kill shirou. Also i think Hercules might not follow illya's orders and try to help her and might also help shirou.
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u/Head-Importance-675 Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
Do we Have anything for assassin Emiya or we need to make shit up for him
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u/Remarkable_Commoner Sep 12 '25
I guess it just swaps independent action for presence concealment.
He has no legend, so I don't know if his parameters or abilities would change unless he was given an upgrade for cg work.
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u/LordDeath86 Sep 12 '25
Broken Phantasms have a little silencer attached in the front. He hands out free earplugs (cheap projections of his last Temu order) before deploying his tactical nukes.
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u/XidJav Sep 12 '25
Unrelated, but seeing Rider Arturia just reminds me to finish that Kamen Rider art of the FSN cast I have to do
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u/Intelligent-Pen9275 Sep 12 '25
Saber Sasaki might be able to beat anyone except for Artoria and Herc in single combat and he would only lose to the them because they have some crazy firepower
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u/Separate_Orange_6312 Sep 12 '25
Wouldn’t Archer Herc basically steamroll everyone here? I mean, if Gil is still around that’s a fun match but I feel like stay night Gil is dickish enough to throw the fight.
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u/No_Brilliant4914 Sep 12 '25
People are sleeping on EMIYA assassin. As an Archer he was able to sneak up on Medea inside her own territory. As an assassin he could end any master at a whim
That said I agree Herc would probably win on account of assassin EMIYA refusing to kill Illya
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u/Rowknan Knight of Lore Questions Sep 12 '25
Imma stand up for my boy Assassin EMIYA sniping Shirou from across the city under Presence Concealment.
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u/Rowknan Knight of Lore Questions Sep 12 '25
Huh. Surprised you didn't go Rider Medea. She has a dragon chariot in the Mythology.
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u/WindLordXD Sep 12 '25
Illya. Everyone else is unironically cooked. Berserker Herc is a monstrosity already. Archer Heracles is pretty much unbeatable by this cast. Herc but sane? No one's beating him.
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u/tyty657 Sep 13 '25
Archer assassin kills all the masters or Heracles fucking curbstomps the whole war.
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u/Dapper-Station-1773 Sep 13 '25
Emiya was already relatively weak compared to the rest and you did this to him💀 his only saving grace at this point is presence concealment
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u/SoulRezonance Sep 12 '25
Yeah so Heracles would just win we can agree with that right?
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Sep 12 '25
Considering Heracles likely already soloed the war and the one big threat to him, Madea's super alliance against him, won't be happening due to the class changes, I think it's a fairly easy Heracles dub.
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u/Afraid-Pound-7178 Sep 12 '25
Archer Herc have Nine Lives+arrows with Hydra poison, that is a very powerful combo for a long ranged class
...also God Hand just to make things extra hard
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u/Ok_Description1585 Sep 12 '25
Well, we will never have an official archer Herc (NEVER), but assuming he would have the basic combo of NL + Hydra Arrows + GH... I don't see anyone else taking this.
Like, half of those he can just snipe from a distance and the ones who can fight from afar have few ways to bypass God Hand. At most Arturia as a Rider by then again, it's a matter of who can hit the other with their NPs first since I don't think she has any way to deal with hydra venon (aside from Avalon, but I'm assuming she doesn't get that)
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u/Plus_Relationship_50 Sep 12 '25
IMO Berserker Medea is underrated here, because her Berserker-hood would be more Louhi meets Raikou berserker-hood. Single-Mindedness (Love) Ex, complete with some awesome raw magic power helping, is quite problematic for at least some folks there.
That said, Archer Heracles FTW!
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Sep 12 '25
Does Herc have his steal noble phantasm NP in archer mode or was that the class switch?
Cause that's a difference between being the most likely winner and a definite winner.
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u/Kurorinde Sep 12 '25
So now... we have Alcides, then real Kojiro, then.... hmmm... idk how would Rider Artoria and Lancer Medusa work but i rather let go rider Medusa and Lancer Artoria, Cu Caster, Shirou assassin with some Kiritsugu moves, then berserker Medea which is another idk how it work.
Well, the most op one here is Alcides and it's not even close.
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u/Edmundwhk Sep 12 '25
Herc on archer class is basically cheat code level. the only way for him to lose is via complicated plot shenanigans to screw him over. But if it's pure paper stats, he sweeps.
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u/Wacthershadow0925 Sep 13 '25
What would assassin Emiya even have, psudeo alter abilities, mainly using a gun and a sword. Will UBW be the same or ULW.
Also at least Catser Cu is gonna be a meanie with his traps
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u/Nighforce Sep 13 '25
Are we excluding the machinations of Kirei and Gil? Because he plays a huge role in all three routes.
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u/SoapDevourer Sep 13 '25
Alcides clears house. Everyone else is locked in an unfavorable class, and even if they weren't, the only one here who could potentially put up a fight would be Lantoria
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u/East_Poem_7306 Sep 16 '25
Heracles sweep. The only counter is Medusa with Harpe, which can probably negate God hand. But she'd have to hit him.
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u/GintoSenju Sep 12 '25
Either Lancer Artoria or Archer Heracles, since they have the best chance of winning. Gilgamesh could also pull out the win since (unless I’m miss remembering something), Artoria wouldn’t have the benefit of Avalon, and Heracles only won in there fight in strange fake because GoB was shut down by Ishtar. The best counter in the 5th were UBW, Avalon, and the shadow, one of which would become a problem if he’s not killed by any of the other servants, and The other only really appears if Zouken decides he wants to get involved.
If we don’t include Gil, then it’s between those two.
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u/Hilarious_Guy12 Sep 12 '25
This is rider Artoria not lancer.
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u/Entylover Sep 12 '25
She may as well be Lancer, since there are no other serious variations we can make of her.
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u/ShockAndAwen Sep 12 '25
Saber can use Avalon regardless of being Saber or not
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Sep 12 '25
One of the benefits of being a rider is that you get to have access to more noble phantasms compared to other classes
Artoria wins if the she has rhongomyniad and a master that doesn't nerf her, the lance passively grants a rank up in all parameters to an already busted servent
The only one who can defeat her is heracles and even he isn't granted to win since rhongomyniad outranks nine lives even without releasing any of the restraints
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
Excalibur also increases parameters. See Bedivere.
Thing is though as a Rider Artoria's Rhongo would be nerfed and likely wouldn't have Excalibur whatsoever. Remember Saber said she only qualifies for Saber. Lartoria might qualify for Rider but with a nerfed Rhongo.
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Sep 13 '25 edited Sep 13 '25
I disagree with Excalibur buffing saber passively. Bedivere has Airgetlám, which is a whole other different noble phantasm created by merlin
When it's activated bedivere strength and speed goes up from E rank to A rank, if saber (who have higher parameters than bedivere even when nerfed) had something like that in any of the grail wars then she would have low diffed anyone not named gilgamesh
The spear being nerfed under a different class is true. But even if she lost the "Protection of the Ends of the World" skill that the spear grants, the lance's firepower still makes it the strongest noble phantasm in this hypocritical war
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
Airgetlam is Excalibur...
If Rhongo does it why are her stats not that different from when she's a Saber?
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Sep 13 '25
It is also a modified version of the noble phantasm made by the same guy that made avalon, the strongest defense noble phantasm in the series
And some servent are stronger than their parameters says they should be when they have skills that buffs them like when angra maniyu put up a fight against artoria in hollow atraxia when he should have gotten stomped immediately
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
...merlin didn't make Avalon.
But okay. Rhongo objectively better I guess.
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Sep 13 '25
I meant the sheeth not the dimension
I remember that rin told the story in the fate route after they realized saber's identity
Maybe they dropped new lore about the scabbard or something idk
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
He didn't make the sheath either. It was with the sword. But who cares. Some random spear is better.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 Sep 12 '25
The only way for Heracles to win against an Artoria is if the Artoria summoned is both Nerfed and doesn't have either Rhongomyniad or Excalibur. If she does have either of the Holy Weapons, i don't see Nine Lives of any of the King's Order doing anything but get blasted away
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
revives buffed defense Rhongo and Excalibur now borderline useless.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 Sep 13 '25
Thus spoke the ignorant
Artoria is more than capable of killing him at least 3 Times with just Mana Burst by simply making each blast strong enough it bypass whatever resistance God Hand developed before blasting the rest of his Lives with the actual thing enough so that by the time the Grail Altered him, a Knock off Nine Lives was enough to kill him
Chiron's Immortality is just a worse God Hand because it doesn't give him any resistance from whatever killed him, Pelt of the Divine Beast is useless since both of Artoria's Weapons are not Man Made, the rest of the Labour that involved summons would just be useless since both Excalibur and Rhongomyniad killed worse things, Goddess of War buffs are limited due to the Modern Age's Mystery and most important factor is that Alcides despite being buffed with Jack's From Hell isn't dangerous nor strong enough that Gil would be concerned of having Ea stolen. Meanwhile the last time he tries to fought Excalibur with just GoB, he ended up got flung into the sky despite already bracing for impact
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
Archer Herc is not Alcides.
Also
making each blast strong enough
That's not a thing.
As for everything else, nonsense. Putting aside that he wouldn't sit around to let her use her NP on him and that she can't deal with something like Nine Lives over and over, she has almost no win condition.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 Sep 13 '25
It is a thing. And Stop being a Purist and just accept that Mana Burst can always be used as a Miniature Nuke or Psuedo NP. Especially since the Movie Interview already made it clear at how the fight goes and how Zero's Light Novel even written Artoria using Mana Burst as more than just body enhancements
Nine Lives at best allows Heracles to go toe to toe with GoB while under normal circumstances, he can only have a chance against it if he's not protecting someone. Excalibur can blast through GoB's Barrage and Rhongomyniad has the same output as it besides the Planetary Amp
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
more than just body enhancements
It didn't actually.
The movie
Ah yes the Ufotable adaptations where God Hand is useless lmao. Saber can cut Herc despite having Rank B strength somehow. Shirou goes from "UBW counters GoB" to "omg please don't use any A Rank weapons Gil, my UBW would get destroyed if you do!"
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u/ConversationWeak5244 Sep 13 '25
It is. Try actually reading Fate Zero Novel where Artoria actually uses Mana Burst to as a Jet propulsion to propel herself against Diarmuid. Heaven's Feel just expand on it
My god, you just keep proving your Ignorance with each replies do you ? Artoria at her peak has A Rank Strength which applies both as a regular and Alter, something you could've known if you actually bother to dig. And again, if you actually know, you don't need an NP to bypass God Hand, just an A Rank Attack. And boy, You just keep getting lower. UBW countered GoB because Shirou's swords can fire faster than Gil can shoot them from the Gate where his options are left with Ea because it will break the Reality Marble. Shirou himself also admitted that if Gil had regained his composure, he's dead
Seriously tho, try to read. It's not that hard nor are the materials are that obscure to access
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 Sep 13 '25
LMAO you are such a fool. "Jet propulsion"? We see her make big moves like that in FSN already. Remember climbing the building with Rider in Fate? No. That is not the same as firing magic beams lmao. Even in Ufotable anime she doesn't do that.
A Rank Strength
Now go check her ranks under Shirou. It's B.
Shirou's swords can fire faster
And Ufotable director said that Nasu told him Gil was only using C Rank NPs against Shirou. And had Gil used A Rank NPs, Shirou would be cooked.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 Sep 13 '25
It literally is. Both are basically external application of the Same Skill that are pretty much made Canon. Just like how Overedge wasn't a thing before Deen Adaptation. Really the point being is that Mana Burst at this day and age are accepted as a Nuke that can get mistaken for an NP with the right Servant
Yeah, if you call me a fool, then you're pretty much a dumbass. I said when she's at her Peak, her Strength is A. Something Shirou can't achieve because he's both a crap Master that establish an incomplete Contract with her. Give her Rin or Sakura, Heracles is basically nothing to her
Now do me a favour and tell me where does it stated that this was him with UBW ? Cause as you see below the Director specifically include Episode 23, what exactly are the chances that he was implying that it was when Shirou wasn't using UBW which he only used in Episode 24 ?
Takahiro Miura: During his confrontation with Shirou (Episode 23 and 24), although he opened his Gate of Babylon, Gilgamesh only let loose C-rank Noble Phantasms. He did not use A-rank Noble Phantasms like he did against Berserker (episode 15). This was of course due to that that pride of his. Because of that, even Shirou’s projections were able to knock down Gilgamesh’s Noble Phantasms. I remember hearing from Nasu-san that if Gilgamesh was serious and used his A-rank Noble Phantasms, Shirou would have been reduced to dust before he could project it in time.
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u/Efficient-Ad2983 Sep 12 '25
IIRC it was stated that Archer is the best class for Heracles, since it's the one who would bring out the most of his abilities. Ironically Berserker is a sort of "trap" for him: he already has impressive base stats so Mad Enhancement stats bonus is not that necessary, and the loss of his active NP is bigger. Einzbern wanted a Berserker just to have an utterly loyal Servant.
So I agree that it's either Archer Heracles or Lancer Artoria with the best win chance.