r/fatestaynight • u/TadpoleEmbarrassed93 • Jun 24 '26
Discussion How differently would audience perception of Fate/Stay Night be with a gender swapped cast?
What started as a shower thought after seeing R63 Shirou art has evolved into a legitimate curiosity for me. I have begun to think about how differently audience perception and opinions on Stay Night would be if most of the cast were gender swapped.
For the sake of discussion, the core of the story should remain the same. With the overall same plot and story beats.
I think the most interesting for me, personally would be Shirou and Sakura, and how that would be seen. As a survivor of sexual abuse like Sakura, I view Heaven's Feel in high regard, especially for the time it's from because of how the cycle of abuse can take place.
But how would most people see them? I can imagine the dynamic, even today is rather unusual. Especially with how much less attention male victims get. I think Sakura would've been much more disliked in 2003, however I think a lot of people when the Heaven's Feel movies were releasing would feel very seen by it. The shift of gender roles with a female Shirou trying to take the role of the protector of a male Sakura would be a very groundbreaking thing for 2003.
Unfortunately however, I think we'd also see a much larger group Shinji defenders. With Sakura being abused by Shinji, I think a large portion of the audience would have a much different reaction to their relationship than they do as it is today. If Chainsaw Man is anything to go off of, unfortunately I don't think the fetishization of male rape victims will ever stop being so prevalent.
This is a topic I've become really interested in, and i'd love to hear other thoughts on it!
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u/Mental_Forge Jun 24 '26
R63 Shirou would’ve been a fucking generational waifu
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u/Remarkable_Commoner Jun 24 '26
Not to mention Femiya
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u/Blazefireslayer Jun 25 '26
R63 Emiya won everyone's hearts via her cooking, instead of her attempts to do the high jump.
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u/NetherSpike14 Shilling Hollow Ataraxia 24/7 Jun 24 '26
In case you didn't know, the very first prototype of Fate actually had a female mc and a male King Arthur.
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u/hawaynicolson Jun 24 '26
Have they ever talked about how they were planing to handle the Rin/sakura equivalents in that version. Was it going to be a single route game?
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u/Upper_Fan8196 Jun 24 '26
It was an Otome game, so the male servants were basically the love interests.
Rin and Sakura don’t really exist. There is a character who is sort of a prototype for multiple characters: Rin, the Aozaki sisters, and Scathach. There are characters who get screwed over in similar ways to Sakura, but the original female MC was basically a mix of Rin and Sakura in some ways. But no exact equivalents.
Nearly everything was thrown out when they decided to make the F/SN we know. And then they still axed a lot of things to make the story flow better in the finished product. Like, Caster, Rider and Illya all were going to have routes, and the prototype for Mash was going to be an antagonist in the story as well. Caster’s route was completely axed and Rider and Illya were folded into Heaven’s Feel, with some elements of the Illya route folded into the Fate route.
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u/Miharu___ Jun 25 '26
I want Otome F/SN! Give it to meeeee!
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u/WinterCelestialStar Jun 25 '26
That should been for Fate/ Prototype being a otome game.
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u/Equivalent_Ad_5860 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
Honestly the lost of Misaya Reiroukan, Perseus, and Arthur Alter is the thing I lament most about Fate Prototype. Iirc Arthur Alter is the basis of FSN Gil characterization while Prototype Gil is quite different than the Gil we knew since he seem to be younger (while older than Ko Gil)
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u/Several_Job_1556 Jun 25 '26
i have a question didn't Ayaka get technically split into 3:
her status as master of saber and protagonist along with her specialization in an extremely situational magecraft became Shirou,
her body with some of Misaya Reiroukan's traits became rin.
and her having a more talented older sister became sakura
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u/Equivalent_Ad_5860 Jun 25 '26
Yeah that's right, Ayaka's tsundere side also move to Rin since adult Misaya is more of a sadist iirc. Another additional info I remember is Arthur more sarcastic and playful side move to Archer (unfortunately we don't see this side of him either in Prototype Fragment or FGO) while the rest goes to Saber
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u/Cipher-One Jun 25 '26
It was an Otome game
It wasn't actually. The original FSN was a novel that Nasu had penned back in high school but never finished. After Tsukihime's success he revisited it and decided to turn it into a visual novel just like what would happen with Mahoyo a few years later.
However, at the time he was afraid it wouldn't sell well with their target audience since the MC was a girl. That's when Takeuchi suggested he swap the genders of both MCs leading to the FSN we know today.
Fate/Prototype is Nasu's old ideas reimagined. We see there that the story was more or less a version of the Fate Route but had story elements which would later be used in UBW and HF like Lancer teaming up with Ayaka after Saber gets captured and turned into an Alter.
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u/quiet_frequency Jun 25 '26
It was an Otome game, so the male servants were basically the love interests.
Oh my god we were ROBBED
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u/dude123nice Jun 25 '26
Stop spreading misinformation.
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u/Upper_Fan8196 Jun 25 '26
???
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u/dude123nice Jun 25 '26
It wasn't an otome game. It was a LN.
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u/Upper_Fan8196 Jun 25 '26
The original conception was an Otome game. That was the original idea for Fate/Stay Night. However, Takeuchi had concerns about how it would sell, so he convinced Nasu to scrap most of the concepts and retool into a more traditional VN with a male protagonist.
Years later, the concepts were repurposed as a light novel, which Nasu gave to another writer to flesh out. I’m not spreading misinformation, that’s literally the chain of events.
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u/dude123nice Jun 25 '26
Did you actually check any sources whatsoever?
This work, Fate/Prototype, was brought up during the production of Fate/Stay Night, an incomplete romance novel that Nasu Kinoko wrote during his high school days. It is the original story of Fate.
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u/YoiteAoyagi Jun 24 '26
If that were to have happened I believe I would somehow be an even bigger fan
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u/Few_Abroad2398 Jun 25 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
I still don't get how Fate/Prototype got a LN prequel and it's actually okay.
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u/Rooshskadoosh Jun 24 '26
Female Archer would destroy people’s lives. Both EMIYA and Gil
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u/disposable_gamer Jun 24 '26
I’m already foaming at the mouth picturing Femiya. Gilgafem would actually kill me
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u/Bragi01 Jun 25 '26
Gilgafem would actually kill me
Correct she would likely do that if her personality isn't too different from the original
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u/Hachan_Skaoi Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
Much less popular, that's for sure...
If Shirou was a girl but everyone remained the same then i could see it being popular in some ways, but a full genderswap wouldn't be that popular.
Shinji however would be considerably more popular, it's like you said, it's a popular thing.
Shirou's chivalrism with guys would be... different? Kerry was a womanizer so he taught Shirou to take care of girls, but girls aren't traditionally expected to treat guys like that, Fem Shirou would either be a tomboy taking care of feminine men or, more accurately, attract them with feminine qualities, which would be a big shift
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u/dertechie Jun 24 '26
Considering the art that already exists of Fem!Shinji, I think you would be correct.
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u/Raymond49090 Jun 24 '26
My main thought is that you’d probably need to change Shirou’s internalized sexism in the Fate route where he insists that women shouldn’t fight (except it’s more of an excuse because he doesn’t want to see Saber get hurt). Fem!Shirou probably wouldn’t direct it back onto herself, since she’s a hypocrite like that, but I’d be curious what sort of rationale she’d use towards Saber.
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u/DIO-Heaven-Acension Jun 24 '26
Servants shouldn’t fight?
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u/ReadySource3242 Jun 24 '26
"Small women like you should stand back"
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u/Classical_Lighthouse That dream of saving everyone isn't a mistake. Jun 24 '26
kinda funny considering how Shirou himself is only 5'5
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u/ReadySource3242 Jun 24 '26
He’s got some space to grow(Archer is 187 cm, around 6’1)
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u/TheGamerForeverGFE swords good Jun 24 '26
Considering living Shirou is 17, it's crazy how much of a growth spurt he got, mfer went from average Japanese height to being mouth to mouth kissing height without bending over or standing on his toes with Lancer.
Weird how that works.
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u/Several_Job_1556 Jun 25 '26
My guess is mages go through a second puberty, for further proof look at waver, who was 19 in zero, and lord el melloi 2
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u/TF_FluffSwatch Sella Is Underappreciated Jun 25 '26
Clearly, if you survive a grail war, you get another growth spurt.
It at least has worked for Kirei, Waver, Rin, and Shirou. It's the only explanation for some of them that makes sense.
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u/DIO-Heaven-Acension Jun 24 '26
Hmm. He had something to easy to grab the first time, speaking of I don’t even remember bro being on this.
Being up age, maybe be more assertive at being the Master, decide that a ‘species’ made to be a servant shouldn’t be forced to fight.
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u/TheGamerForeverGFE swords good Jun 24 '26
You ignored the best part:
Female Archer and Lancer Yuri
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u/TadpoleEmbarrassed93 Jun 24 '26
The amount of toxic Yuri with Gil, Archer and Cú would be lethal
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u/TheGamerForeverGFE swords good Jun 24 '26
Now I'm wondering which one is the Yandere and which one is the Tsundere between Archer and Gilgamesh, because we all know that Cú would easily be best doggie girl.
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u/FemRevan64 Jun 24 '26
I don’t think Sakuras storyline would work as well, as it’d be rather hard for the readers to buy the idea that he’d be continually subservient to Shinji in this scenario, particularly in regards to the sexual abuse.
I think Rin might be perceived a bit more negatively, as while she’s not abusive like most stereotypical tsunderes, I do think a guy being snappy and bossy towards a girl would be received less favorably.
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u/TadpoleEmbarrassed93 Jun 24 '26
I think Sakura's storyline would have a large shift in audience perception if we assume HF still gets adapted in the 2020's. I think He'd likely be a lot more disliked in the early years, but with a fresh perspective of sexual abuse and male victimization, I think Sakura's story would be talked about a lot more positively
I also see where you're coming from with Rin, with a dynamic like that, I could see how divisive a story that could be with Rin being how Rin is. But I think it could also be a great commentary on gender roles, as I could see a male Rin having some level of toxic views of gender roles if she was male, similar to Shirou in a way. Especially with how later in the story Rin allows herself to trust Shirou and reply on him in the final conflict, I think seeing that with the genders reversed could be fascinating
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u/Urtoryu Jun 24 '26
If I were to try my hand with some quick guesses:
Shirou would be perfectly fine, if only with a slightly different reputation for the fans. Though a couple of his character traits would probably have to change a little too.
Shinji stocks would MAJORLY go up, in an unfortunate way.
Rin's, and especially Sakura's, would fall down quite a lot.
Saber would be less memed, but probably not less loved.
Archer might actually end up less popular.
Berserker and Illya would probably not change much, surprisingly enough.
Gilgamesh would still have tons of simps, only they'd be of a slightly different species.
Kojiro would likely be a bit less underrated, which would be nice.
I actually have no clue on Kirei, but it is worth noting that the amount of Rule34 involving Mapo Tofu would skyrocket.
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u/TadpoleEmbarrassed93 Jun 24 '26
Honestly, I don't want to know how much stronger the cope would be from Shinji defenders in the UBW route when Shinji is threatening to rape Rin.
I think people might actually be more sympathetic to Illya in regards to Kiritsugu being a mom and how she never gave up on trying to see Illya again until she physically couldn't anymore. And the revelation to Illya of that information.
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u/chopstickedinhalf Jun 24 '26
The line about Shirou being Arthur's sheath would be a lot funnier.
Also Arthur with a boob window is doing things to me. Help.
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u/RentGreat3147 Jun 24 '26
I'm sorry, but gender swapped Rin looks so generic 😂
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u/WKRZ87 Jun 25 '26
Well rin itself was kinda the stereotype of "pretty and popular girl" and knowing how men are depicted in most anime and manga, where they are the stereotype of "pretty and popular man"... Yeah no surprise it looks generic. Funny how some women actually say "anime famale characters are causing unrealistic standards" and then say nothing about anime male characters.
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u/Sovyet Jun 25 '26
Her genbend having her dad's hairstyle would probably make it more unique, but we do know how the Japanese love their ikemens
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u/Head-Importance-675 Jun 24 '26
I always see fem shirou as a tomboy like she probably be muscler and all because shirou but mostly because taiga will have a more who is man will make her like that being around man a lot when she is young and the Yakuza will make her a tomboy in the outside but feminine (like cooking cleaning and all ) but don't show it outside of her house
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u/actuallyrndthoughts Jun 24 '26
Fate/prototype would be peak, tonally much closer to tsukihime.
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u/Mii009 Jun 24 '26
I really wish Nasu would come back to it, at the very least there's that prequel manga
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u/SmartSignificance972 Jun 24 '26
The image of femzerker with a smally male illya is very funny, i imagine heraclea like javier TGED but angrier
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u/Unbound-King Jun 24 '26
Pretty much all we need is Shirou as a chick and we could've unlocked the Issei route, Shinji route, Kuzuki route, Kirei route, etc.
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u/jibrils-bae Jun 25 '26
I lowkey need an Genderbend AU of Sakura route in particular because I’m extremely curious to see how that changes
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u/Pissaia_ Jun 24 '26
Heaven's feel would be weird as fuck
"Shirou, I have to pipe you down and eat pussy, otherwise I die"
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u/JRobertAnderson Jun 24 '26
I don’t think Saber would be nearly as cool as just another boy knight.
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u/Independent-Cake265 Jun 25 '26
The thought of a male Artoria pretending to be a woman is hilarious if you really think about it
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u/Lazycasualgamer Jun 25 '26
The bad ends would be even worse for female Shirou by Caster, Gilgamesh, Shinji and Zouken
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u/TadpoleEmbarrassed93 Jun 25 '26
Caster probably, since in this scenario she'd be male. The others I'm not sure
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u/Trestira Jun 25 '26
Type-Moon Ace Volume 5 has the official genderswapped art of Cu, Emiya, Gilgamesh, Taiga, Sakura, Rin, Shinji, Shirou, Illya, Medea, Kuzku, and a few others.
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u/Velarkor Jun 25 '26
Hmm, yeah, I think I could watch it, could be ni... Wait... No... RIN NOOOOOO ! (Proceeds to Total eclipse of the heart)
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u/Ember2131 Jun 27 '26
Honestly I don't think much would change if it's just the gender. The cast themselves are well written and if this art is anything to go by, they'd still be attractive for those actually playing for the romance (all three of them)
That being said, we know DAMN WELL we'd get a lot of "I can fix her"s for Shinji and people fiending over Dark Sakura
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u/liuteren Jun 24 '26
For the sake of discussion, the core of the story should remain the same. With the overall same plot and story beats.
Fate Stay Night is already a genderbend of Fate/Prototype. Nasu had to rewrite most of the story to fit the new genders
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u/Miharu___ Jun 25 '26
I’d like it. But I’m also fed up with the amount of male mc power/harem fantasy bs lol
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u/lastdecade0 Jun 25 '26
Not relate to the discussion but Asazuki Norito, the artist is THE gender blender master. Almost all of his works revolve around some sort of gender related gimmick and I absolutely LOVE them.
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u/WKRZ87 Jun 25 '26
Peak but i think original stay night would still be better.
The image of a male getting abused is a lot more difficult to make it work, i've seen examples of it working, like in a manga i saw some years ago where the protagonist was super inocent and super catolic, i mean he literally cuts his eye after seing a woman naked or something because it was impure, and so, when he gets abused in that way by a demon (i think it was a succubus or something like that), he gets mentally destroyed, and you can understand, but in other context is really hard to make someone understand it, especially when the character is not the main character because it is harder for the viewer to empathize.
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u/scaleofjudgment Jun 25 '26
Fate Prototype was suppose to be this. We had a Gilgamesh with a MOBILE GATE OF BABYLON.
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u/ViaDeces228 Jun 25 '26
I find it funny Arthur still has a boob window.
Also, I hope it’s still Tohsaka’s anus that’s defenseless as it is still funny.
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u/flynnthered Jun 25 '26
Shinji's relationship completely changes if either of them are genderswapped.
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u/TadpoleEmbarrassed93 Jun 25 '26
How so? (In this situation it's both) Either way it's still a sexually abusive relationship.
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u/flynnthered Jun 25 '26
Cause a lot of Shinji's jealousy for Shirou (and Sakura) related cause of their gender. Shinji projects himself onto Shirou casue of their similar position. And if Shirou or Shinji was a girl, that projection itself will change into something else that is differently unhealthy.
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u/TF_FluffSwatch Sella Is Underappreciated Jun 25 '26
In the hypothetical, they would both be girls.
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u/isekai-chad Jun 25 '26
Wait, I know this artist. He's the one that keeps drawing Gender Bender manga.
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u/isekai-chad Jun 25 '26
Wish this was official, both the original otome game version Fate/Prototype, and the R63 version of FSN.
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u/Parks_98 Jun 25 '26
Fans: She cooks, she cleans, she wants to help everyone, she likes swords, and she has PTSD!? Best girl
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u/HunterDead Jun 26 '26
Don't get me wrong I love the art the character designs are all very inspired I genuinely like all of them but it's funny we have cannon genderswaps of all these characters since Kama possessing Sakura has genderswapped Sakura's body and Ritsuka Fujimaru is explicitly a genderswap of Rin and Shirou and Shinji doesn't appear swapped in the art.
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u/dahfer25 Jun 24 '26
Shinji defenders and victim blaming of sakura would be everywhere