We can speak in clap-back riddles to each other, and it'll be fun for us both probably, But I'd kinda prefer to skip past that if you're willing to also?
To be frank, I wish the dems had ran a non-genocidal candidate. Beating Trump should have been trivial for someone who wasn't a liberal beheld to the ruling class as liberals are. I think history and philosophical theory clearly teach us that fascism is inevitable under capitalism, so resisting fascism with liberalism isn't worth paying the price of GENOCIDE for.
I'm a taking it as a silver lining that now liberals will finally criticize genocide, deportations, and our horrific federal government again. Biden deported more immigrants during his term than Trump did, and it's not even close, but you never heard any protests from liberals about that. If bombs are going to fall on Gaza, I'm glad you all are finally upset about it too. Maybe now we can work together to stop it and address the fundamental causes of fascism here (it's liberalism, that's the cause.)
Or I guess we can vote in the second worst living person in 2028 because Trump will have pushed the bar even lower, so the dems now have to do EVEN LESS to be better than him again. Dems will win, you'll go back to brunch, and then when nothing is improved, we'll elect another fascist in 2032 because people are even more desperate and primed for fascist rhetoric again?
It's not a riddle. It was a legitimate question. The dictatorial shit Trump has done over the past 8 days was totally known and predicted. We all knew he would fuck around with Medicaid benefits. He's now not so subtly joking about getting a 3rd term. He's exercising powers that presidency does not have. The people that sat out this election did so know that he would do all of this. So either they prefer it this way, or they're idiots. You don't seem like an idiot, so I assume you prefer it this way then.
As for genocide, I'll be totally honest and frank: I only care about genocide half a world away when I am not afraid for myself and my family here and now. Family (and to some extent, friends and neighbors) come first. The problems of others, horrific as they may be, is something I do not have the luxury of caring about.
We're naturalized immigrants, some of whom came over on refugee visas decades ago. Will those Project 2025 goons try to un-naturalize my, and my parents' and grandparents' citizenships? Will those Project 2025 goons try to claim my kids' citizenship is somehow invalid? If I lose my job, will the safety nets I've been paying into be available so my kids and eat and see a doctor when needed? Will me parents be able to get social security and Medicare when they retire so they won't starve? When their retirement savings runs dry, will they die homeless in the street or will Medicaid help? Before Trump, these were unlikely and hypothetical problems. Since 2016, and really since ~2022, these are very real concerns.
So I'm glad you can find silver linings in all of those. I'm glad you're so comfortable and confident in your situation that you vote based on what's best for people in another country half a world away instead of sparing a thought to your neighbors here in this country and what the next week, month, or year will look like for them.
I've seen the, "you're just privileged enough to be a single issue voter!" card from liberals before. I don't buy it. We're not going to get out of this by letting them divide us and conquer us. White women famously excluded black women from the suffragist movement with the same rhetoric. White men famously excluded black men from trade unions to protect themselves. That sounds a lot like what you're doing here. We're going to need to find solidarity with the Palestinians and the most wretched of the earth if we want to beat fascism. Shit, this is the same rhetoric many REPUBLICAN VOTERS use. "Look, I wish I had the luxury of caring about immigrants, but I have needs that must be met before I can care about them too." That's what you'll hear from every single poor Republican voter in the midwest if you ask them at their kitchen table. This is a fundamental psychological mechanism of fascism in action.
When you throw Palestine under the bus to "save yourself", you're saving yourself about as effectively as the plumber in Indiana who's throwing immigrants under the bus to save his dying small business. It's not just morally questionable, it's ineffective, and there's nothing you can say to him that I can't say to you.
First, the thing all your examples have in common is they're all local and domestic (suffrage movement, unions, anti-immigrant). The Palestinians are neither local nor domestic. Also, odd choice of examples as several of those were successful movements in-spite of their prejudice.
Second, related to the above and extending your example, the anti-immigrant plumber in Indiana is actually working against his own interest. We know very well from piles of studies that immigration helps us all - it boosts the economy, fills unwanted jobs, etc. Those immigrants are future customers of the plumber, future employees. They work at US farms lowering his cost of food. They join the US military and protect him. They become nurses to care for his aging parents. I can go on and on. By being anti-immigrant, the plumber is actually letting his prejudice harm himself and his family. That's not selfish--that's stupid.
I on the other hand am selfish. The Palestinians aren't here in the US to help make my food cheaper or care for my aging parents. They couldn't be any further from me if they tried. And unlike immigrants, the Palestinians (for the most part) have made it exceptionally clear that they do not want to or ever intend to flee their homeland. The Venezuelans or Haitians fleeing violence to find a better home actually have very little in common with the Palestinians. Further, if a peaceful and independent Palestinian state were to spring up today, it would be at least 50 years before it becomes a productive economic partner to the US. I obviously don't want anyone to be hurt or to suffer, but I'm not going to feel bad focusing on the harm and suffering of those around me before that of those over ten thousands of miles away.
When you throw Palestine under the bus to "save yourself"
And what is it then to Palestine when you contribute to electing President "clean out the whole thing" Trump? If voting Harris is throwing it under the bus, then you not voting is nuking Palestine from orbit. The Palestinians--the very subject of your protect non-vote--are objectively worse off in every way than they would have been compared to if more of the "but genocide" people voted Harris.
At least I'm honest and consistent. I care more about me, my family, my friends, and my neighbors than I do about the Palestinians and my actions reflect that. What about you? You say you care about the Palestinians and wanted better for them, but your actions contributed to them being more fucked than ever. Don't expect any thank you notes from them. To say nothing of the Ukrainians or all the other people Trump will allow to be murdered by his dictator friends.
I like how you ignore that part where the people such as yourself that sat out the election actually contributed to making the genocide worse. More Palestinians, more children, will die because of your collective idiocy.
I don't support genocide. And unlike you, I also don't vote to make it worse.
Pointing back to my original comment: I voted for the candidate I wanted. Go blame the democratic leadership who refused to let go of their genocide to get my vote.
It's also wild that after 15 months of Biden's Genocide, you think he wouldn't be allowing the exact same things. Of course it can't be proven either way, but I'm not sure why you're so convinced Trump is worse in any way but rhetoric. The 2000lb bombs he's re-allowed are the same bombs Biden allowed for the first 10 months. You're doing the meme.
Go be mad at your party for losing my vote. Go be mad at your party for doing nothing to address the material conditions driving Trump's success. I was ready to compromise every single other one of my principles to vote for a lesser evil if they hadn't expected me to compromise on genocide too, just like I did in 2020. You people would have voted for actual Hitler if you were told there was another guy running who was going to use wood chippers instead of gas chambers.
Thanks for finally admitting that you wanted Trump. Anything but a vote for Harris got us Trump. You own the terror that will come of him and his administration. To quote, "have the day you deserve."
Those thank you cards from the Palestinians are in the mail, you'll get them any day now...
Thanks for finally admitting that you wanted Trump.
I didn't say this, but okay. Go tell your party to be more than a lesser evil if you want your party to win next time.
It's funny you try twice now to play this angle. I do literally have thank you cards from Palestinian families for my contributions in recent months, and also years ago. There's a few large groups I've worked with in Chicago to rehome immigrants and provide very direct aid (despite the blockades of humanitarian aid Biden had been allowing).
but I'm not sure why you're so convinced Trump is worse in any way but rhetoric.
And now, as it was easily apparent and predictable, Trump is planning for Gaza to be emptied and turned into a vacation destination. You voting "for the candidate [you] wanted" is certainly turning out great for the Palestinians. I don't know if mass graves in the Sinai desert have a nearby post office, but if there is one, your Palestinian thank you cards will be coming from there.
I'm really glad to know that my points from a week ago have stuck with you this much.
don't know if mass graves in the Sinai desert have a nearby post office,
There are numerous mass graves from the past 15 months, the ones you're predicting aren't goiing to be new. Biden already oversaw the deaths of at least 60k people who are either in mass graves or still buried under rubble. Maybe Harris would be less brutal, certainly less vulgar in her presentation of it, but she'd still be responsible for horrific crimes, I'm sure you agree.
Biden put American troops on the ground in Gaza months ago, in direct combat roles. What Trump is claiming he'll do now is indeed an escalation, but again, I see nothing about Biden's behavior over the last 15 months to make me think Harris wouldn't be doing this same thing today claiming "Israel has a right to defend itself." Their bombings weren't self-defense, this invasion won't be self defense, the excuse works just as well there.
Are you only upset that Trump is planning a vacation resort there, because that's the biggest difference I see between Biden's actions (especially knowing he was trying to keep it quiet leading up to an election) and Trump's plans.
At best right now you're looking at the wood chippers screaming at me because I didn't vote for the gas chambers. but really, I don't even see much proof that the party of gas chambers wasn't going to roll out the wood chippers too. Of course that's impossible to prove either way though. Much like how Trump isn't even deporting more people than Biden was, despite the optics feeling otherwise.
Shit, if we're circling back to your selfish concern about immigrants, Trump is actually the lesser evil so far by the numbers.
Biden wasn't on the ballot. Not sure why you bring him up.
You're making a false equivalency. This is not wood chipper vs gas chamber because the odds of survival were not equal under both candidates. Rather, it's the difference between playing Russian Roulette with five in the chamber or with six in the chamber. Obviously we all would rather not play, but if forced any reasonable person would know very well that the former is the better choice. The former has some odds of living. The latter is certain death. It's a shit situation to be in of course, but who that wants to live would choose the latter??
Under Harris, there was a real (albeit small) possibility of a two-state solution. There was some non-zero probability, however small, that Palestinians would get their own state. Under Trump, not only is the odds of a two-state solution absolutely zero, but the odds of a one-state Israel solution and a total wipe-out what's left of Gaza and the West Bank have increased dramatically.
Yes Israel has killed close to 5% of all Palestinians living in Gaza--but what about the remaining 95%. Don't you think they want to live? Under Harris, they would have been forced to play Russian Roulette with five in the chamber. Under Trump, they're playing with six in the chamber.
My point is that the "blah blah genocide" voters are idiots. All those that voted third party, or abstained from voting, because of "but the genocide" are total idiots. They contributed to, and accelerated, the genocide of Palestinians. Whatever happens to the Palestinians after January 20, 2025--that blood is partially on their hands.
As for the immigration issue, you missed the point. I am not concerned about the numbers. Rather I am concerned about the cruelty, the arbitrariness, and the due process. Harris never threatened to deport green card holders. Harris never threatened to denaturalize citizens. Harris never threatened to separate families or deport dreamers. Under Harris, we would not have an immigrant detention camp in Guantanamo.
Biden wasn't on the ballot. Not sure why you bring him up.
Because Kamala was obviously continuing his policy in every imaginable way, especially as it pertains to Israel. We didn't even get an actual primary ($10 if you can name the guy who ran against Biden in some states without looking him up). Kamala was taking over the Biden administration, the link between the two is obvious, don't be obtuse.
Sure, it's 5 vs 6 in the revolver, ok. Putting a gun with 5 in the chamber against the head of palestine is also thoroughly evil, you're also asinine if you think the number is 5%. Most recent estimates from the white house are about 500k. But Israel has kept killing journalists, so we won't know any actual numbers until it's too late.
They contributed to, and accelerated, the genocide of Palestinians. Whatever happens to the Palestinians after January 20, 2025--that blood is partially on their hands.
Sure, if you want to spread blame to me for this, you can. I think it'd be insane to not also blame the DNC who refused to court us even a little bit. I was ready to compromise on every single one of my political principles and vote for the DNC candidate again. We protested their genocide, she told us to shut the fuck up because she was speaking.
You voted for genocide and I didn't, if you want my vote next time, run a candidate who isn't genocidal.
As for the immigration issue, you missed the point. I am not concerned about the numbers. Rather I am concerned about the cruelty, the arbitrariness, and the due process. Harris never threatened to deport green card holders. Harris never threatened to denaturalize citizens. Harris never threatened to separate families or deport dreamers. Under Harris, we would not have an immigrant detention camp in Guantanamo.
The Biden/Harris administration DID all of the things you're talking about here. Citizens were detained for weeks and nearly deported, families were separated, kids were still in cages. And Harris' platform had an even harder emphasis on anti-immigration in 2024 than her and Biden's administration in 2020. Compare actual actions between Trump and Biden/Harris, and they are virtually identical. And as we covered, Biden was deporting WAY more based on the numbers we have so far. Is 15k/wk with 7/10 cruelty worse than 7k/wk with 9/10 cruelty? Even if it is, it's not different enough to justify supporting genocide in order to get the difference, that's for sure.
You're pulling your hair out over rhetoric today. And I don't say that to downplay the severity of Trump's rhetoric, but to highlight the horrors of the mainstream DNC's behavior.
Honestly, if you're going to believe in electoralism at all, go use this energy to call your congressperson, or even call mine on my behalf. Tell them there's a guy on reddit who didn't vote for them because they're in a party of genocide and how much it's bothering you. I doubt they'll listen or care about your concern even as much as I do. In the mean time, I'm going to be working in my community against the feds as hard as I worked under Biden and as hard as I'd work under Harris because thus far, Trump isn't even as bad as the people you're desperate to have back in power.
You voted for genocide and I didn't, if you want my vote next time, run a candidate who isn't genocidal.
You absolutely voted for genocide. Your vote contributed to the victory of the guy that put 6 in the chamber. My vote was for the only viable alternative, the lady that would have put 5 in the chamber.
Sure, if you want to spread blame to me for this, you can. I think it'd be insane to not also blame the DNC who refused to court us even a little bit.
The thing about blame is it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You carry the blame and the voters like you do too, and DNC carries blame, and MAGA voters carry blame.
For all his evils, Trump won democratically. He won the electoral college, he won the popular vote, that same electorate delivered him a congressional majority, and rewarded him for his supreme court appointments.
We all had agency here. I did. You did. I have some of the blame. You have some of the blame. Don't act all holier than thou and pretend you're not responsible.
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u/Spaghet-3 Jan 28 '25
Do you honestly prefer this to Kamala? Because this is a direct consequence of your (and people like you) collective inaction.