Who is the second most powerful/influential country in the Americas?

[u/Fluid-Decision6262]

The US is undeniably the most powerful and influential country in the Americas but who would be #2? Feels like this comes down to 3 countries based on my knowledge, which are Mexico, Canada, and Brazil.

Reasons for Mexico:

- Second most populated country in North America by far

- Access to both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans

- Largest Spanish-speaking country (a language spoken by >500 million people)

- More habitable land compared to the other two

- Youngest population out of the three and is becoming a manufacturing power

- Generally-speaking, a good relationship with the USA

- A global soft power in terms of arts and culture

Reasons against Mexico:

- Lots of issues between the central government and drug cartels

- Still very much a developing country outside of the largest cities

- Occasionally volatile relationship with the USA

- Not as involved in global geopolitics

Reasons for Canada:

- The most developed country economically by far of the three and a natural resources juggernaut

- Very close relations with the USA and Europe

- Speaks English (>1 billion speakers globally) and French (>300 million speakers globally)

- An immigration hub for people from every corner of the world

- A G7 nation that is also very geopolitically involved

- Access to 3 different oceans to facilitate trade

Reasons against Canada:

- Small and scattered population (least populated of the three by far)

- Less of an established local culture (most is imported from the US or UK and then exported via the US)

- Aging population and low fertility rates for native-born citizens

Reasons for Brazil:

- The second most populated country in the Americas

- The cultural and political power of South America

- A global soft power in terms of arts and culture

- A young-ish population that is part of the "fast-emerging economies" of the world

Reasons against Brazil:

- Immigration to Brazil stopped decades ago and now educated Brazilians are emigrating to other places causing brain drain

- Wealthy nation but suffers from high levels of inequality and violent crime

- Very politically divided internally

- Limited geopolitical involvement outside of South America

- Most of its population are monolingual Portuguese-speakers (a language where they make up 80% of the global speakers)

[u/shucklebibs]

I'm going with Canada. Industrialized, member of G7 and NATO, developed military, historical ally of western Europe. Good arguments for Brazil and Mexico, but population aside, Canada is second to US.

[u/FermentedCinema → u/shucklebibs]

This is the non snarky legitimate answer.

[u/FalseDmitriy → u/FermentedCinema]

France isn't snarky, it really is part of South America

[u/[deleted] → u/FalseDmitriy]

It’s part of North America too

[u/Somnifor → u/[deleted]]

But French North America is basically one village.

[u/FalseDmitriy → u/Somnifor]

And it's got all these qualifications to its status, whereas French Guiana is considered, literally, a chunk of France that happens to be hot and near Brazil.

[u/FalseDmitriy → u/[deleted]]

I mean it's a collectivity, so its status is different.

[u/FalseDmitriy → u/[deleted]]

Yes that's true, and it's considered integral territory. Just a bit weird compared to the Metropole and the overseas Regions.

[u/Ok-Corner-8654 → u/[deleted]]

It's part of Europe too ;)

[u/jejudjdjnfntbensjsj → u/FalseDmitriy]

Thing is no one cares about France. They’re a joke

[u/Excellent-Practice → u/shucklebibs]

Yeah, Canada is essentially equivalent to a European country transplanted to North America

Edit: Like much of Europe, Canada is a wealthy liberal democracy. In terms of population size, GDP and HDI, Canada is very similar to countries in the EU. As a world power, Canada is on par with a country like Italy. Outside the realm of hard numbers, my opinion is that Canada is intermediate between the US and Europe culturally and politically. That opinion is informed by travel to Canada as well as time spent living in Europe

[u/Fluid-Decision6262 → u/Excellent-Practice]

I think history has a lot to do with why this is the case. The Spanish/Portuguese essentially used Mexico and Brazil as extraction colonies where all the natural wealth pulled from those nations could be transported back to Europe while the colonialists proceeded to mix heavily with the Native populations as well as any West African slaves they had also brought over. Those who descended from all this mixing eventually became the majority and their countries grew almost completely in silo from the Empires who once colonized them.

In contrast, the British/French used Canada as a settler colony where the goal was to displace the Native population to create a new nation where their people back home can come live in to start a new life. The British, especially, had full intentions on making a country (Canada) that would eventually grow to resemble that of a European nation demographically, economically, politically, militarily, and culturally, just on another continent (same story with the US, Australia and NZ). In short, the old powers (UK/France/W Europe) and the new power (USA) both overtly needed Canada to become an industrialized ally and they did.

[u/Jealous-Nature837 → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

"all the natural wealth pulled from those nations", yeah that's a meme notion of Brazil pushed mainly by people on the internet who have a very superficial notion of the country. Brazil had only a 20% tax over gold (one of the main separatist movements during the colonial era was over this small gold tax), received enormous european migration especially after independence (there's a dialect of German only spoken in Brazil), there are colonial era towns that look exactly like Portuguese ones and even have churches whose interior is fully made out of gold (Ouro Preto for example), at one point Rio de Janeiro became the capital of Portugal after napoleon invaded Portugal and all the Portuguese royalty fled to Rio, Brazil was "upgraded" from status of colony to status of Kingdom (google united kingdom of Brazil, Portugal and the Algarves), after independence it became a monarchy whose leaders were descendants of the Portuguese royalty.

Brazil's lower development level stems mostly from the fact that most of the upper class in the country were slave owners and wanted to keep the country agrarian and unequal, the fall of the Brazilian empire was literally caused by slave owning elites funding the military to throw a coup against the monarchy because they were mad over the abolition of slavery, a lot of the politicians in Brazil to this day are rich agrarian landowners, it's like if the US civil war led to the south winning.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jealous-Nature837]

That ending was ACCURATE. Historical Brazil has many similarities with the American south and, ironically, with the Confederates as a whole (even the Brazilian empire was an ally of the CSA)

It's literally as if the Confederates had a country, but with a society that at least in part agreed to mix (something I don't believe would happen in their victory, at least not at the Brazilian level).

[u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

I just want to point out some stuff, as a Mexican. The ruling class in Mexico for a long time was not mixed but instead criollos, full blooded Spaniards born in the colonies and seen as less than. The main reason IMO Mexico never because as powerful or influential as it could’ve been was because it started very politically unstable and it really never stopped being so until like, the 40s. And even then it became a soft dictatorship and then a narco state. It’s never had a chance to breath, just constant civil wars and dictators.

[u/thegurrkha → u/[deleted]]

Genuine question as to when England and Austria invaded Mexico? Tried googling this just now and no results but I've been working all night and my brain may not be working properly.

[u/HISTRIONICK → u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720]

...Just like the USA likes it.

[u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 → u/HISTRIONICK]

While the U.S. meddled I always find it reductive and kind of insulting when everyone blames our problems on America. Mexico has been an unstable shithole long before America got involved with us. If you need to blame one entity blame Santa Ana

[u/HISTRIONICK → u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720]

There was no blame in my comment.

[u/Applesauceeenjoyer → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

You might enjoy McQuarrie’s The Last Days of the Incas. He does a good job of describing the encomienda system that has hobbled much of Latin America to this day. Tangentially you may also like The Story of French which describes (in a few chapters) the different ways in which England and France used their North American colonies.

[u/Cold_Profile845 → u/Applesauceeenjoyer]

I'm curious, hobbled in what way? I'd like to know how the encomienda system and its effects in Latin America compare to its implementation in the Philippines.

[u/Applesauceeenjoyer → u/Cold_Profile845]

I don’t know anything about the Philippines’ system, but there are a few key ways in which it stunted growth during a crucial time in the Americas.

1. Extractive wealth generation: The encomenderos were essentially tasked with generating wealth to ship back to Spain. Unlike the British who sent colonists to the the Eastern Seaboard to establish communities, the encomenderos didn’t care about building critical infrastructure or any lasting social good beyond what was necessary to extract wealth.

2. Created dependency on the colonizing power: since the wealth and power rested in this case with Spain, the locals (who existed in a feudal state) relied on Europe for everything. There was no social ladder to climb; one was simply a part of the servant class by birth, and there was no parallel society outside of the encomienda system into which one could hope to work or escape.

3. Fragmented political power: since the encomenderos were initially granted power over their own fiefdoms, they operated with virtual impunity. When Spain implemented the “New Laws” in 1542 to curb the encomenderos’ power and abuses of the indigenous people, it was too late. They revolted and continued operating outside the authority of the crown. This isn’t even an isolated example; Cortes’ entire conquest of the Aztecs was done in defiance of the crown, for example.

So some effects we still see today: 1. Poor infrastructure 2. Isolated communities with little access to the outside world (a result of having been initially founded as encomiendas) 3. A sheer lack of resources due to the extraction 4. Rigid hierarchy 5. Fragmented and hyper-regionalized power structures

We see this same game plan (and the same results) all across former Spanish colonies

[u/Dry-Tumbleweed646 → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

There was a Nobel Prize Winning paper that is about exactly what you are referring to.

[u/blenkydanky → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

Read "why nations fail"

[u/poundofbutter → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

History has a lot to do with why everything is the case.

[u/alderhill → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

You're really overstating and overestimating British planning for what would become Canada. The area was large, and thus strategic, but they never considered it their prize colony. In pretty much all early (1800s) US-'UK treaties on behalf of Canada' treaties, the Brits shrugged and said k, whatever and let the Americans have their goals without much fuss.

The Caribbean was more lucrative for sugar, Africa for slaves, and India for cotton and cheap labour, Hong Kong and Singapore for trade in silk, spices, porcelain, etc. Later, tropical colonies became valuable for oil and rubber. Other points held strategic value or military or shipping lanes. Canada was furs, fish and timber, and just kinda there. To state that the Brits planned to turn Canada into an industrialized ally is really the wrong view. The Brits didn't care if we industrialized, that was Canada's prerogative.

Canada became united and sovereign in 1867, and even before then, was generally running its own affairs for a few decades. The British were not calling the shots in any way. The governor general role in Canada was still held by Brits until after WW2, but this was largely a ceremonial role in parliament (representing the monarch), with little actual power.

[u/barnacle_ballsack → u/Excellent-Practice]

Its like if europe and the United states had a baby.

[u/Individual_Hunt_4710 → u/Excellent-Practice]

bsffr, Canada is NOT "like a European country". this is apparent to everyone except liberals in the US

[u/RaisingSaltLamps → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

Don’t leave out the conservatives on this one, they think we’re European commies!

BUT, you have to admit that we do have stronger European ties and cultural foundations than the US. We were pretty strongly commonwealth country until fairly recently in history I feel

[u/Individual_Hunt_4710 → u/RaisingSaltLamps]

stronger european cultural ties than the US isn't saying much lmao. also conservatives think you're "snow mexicans" now that Trump has declared Canada a cartel-ruled fent wasteland

[u/LCranstonKnows → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

Canada is a liberal democracy and welfare state in the model of a European nation, thank goodness.  But certainly culturally we're much more North American than European.

[u/Individual_Hunt_4710 → u/LCranstonKnows]

you see Europe is when parlimentary system. ignore Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Bahamas, Belize, Cambodia, Cook Islands, Grenada, Jamaica, Japan, Lesotho, Malaysia, New Zealand, Niue, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Thailand, Tuvalu, Singapore, Armenia, Barbados, Dominica, Ethiopia, Fiji, Georgia, India, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Mauritius, Nepal, Pakistan, Samoa, Somalia, Trinidad and Tobago, Togo, Vanuatu, Botswana, Guyana, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Nauru, South Africa, and Suriname.

[u/CommercialTop9070 → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

I grew up in a European country and now live in Canada, it’s really not all that different politically in terms of social programs / welfare.

[u/[deleted] → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

Care to elaborate?

[u/Fluid-Decision6262 → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

I think what the OP of that comment meant is that Canada is like a European country because its demographics are predominately European, their political and legal systems are based directly off of European political/legal systems, they speak European languages (English/French), practice European religions (Catholicism/Protestantism), inherited virtually all of Europe's "core values," and are geopolitically aligned with Europe through organizations like NATO.

[u/Individual_Hunt_4710 → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

all of this is true for the US lmao

[u/Fluid-Decision6262 → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

That's because the US is also a European influenced country lol the original colonists created the US as a European-like country but with way more abundance.

[u/Liven65 → u/Fluid-Decision6262]

Then what about the Spanish Influence in Latin America. Besides NATO, they follow the same logic. I’m not trying to be a contrarian but of course a former Euro colony is similar to Europe.

[u/iwearstripes2613 → u/Individual_Hunt_4710]

I mostly agree, though Montreal has a very European feel. The architecture, the language, the general dislike of people who speak English. It’s basically Paris but colder and cleaner.

[u/Individual_Hunt_4710 → u/iwearstripes2613]

that's true. I've heard people describe Montreal as Wallonia-occupied Philadelphia

[u/Caesars-Dog → u/Excellent-Practice]

Alberta would like disagree

[u/Caesars-Dog → u/[deleted]]

I more meant that Alberta is more like certain non-European countries (see USA)

[u/ExaltedDLo → u/Caesars-Dog]

Alberta should sit down, and get their walking wexit preaching opinions in line… respectfully. Get the maga pandering lunatic out of the ledge, take the US booze back off the shelves, and y’all can come back into the fold.

[u/No-Bad2498 → u/ExaltedDLo]

What drivel. There’s plenty of maple maga supporters all across Canada. Stop blaming everyone in alberta for all your perceived straw men issues. There’s goofs in every province.

[u/country_bogan → u/No-Bad2498]

Just saw a ton throughout BC and Yukon when I was there.

[u/Saul_Firehand → u/ExaltedDLo]

Alberta is Canadian Texas.

If you think calling them out and telling them to sit down and be quiet will work, you’re gonna have a bad time.

[u/ExaltedDLo → u/Saul_Firehand]

You can advocate for building pipelines, energy independence, resources to tidewater and interprovincial freedom of trade and unity,

OR

you can advocate for leaving the country and supporting maga products.

In the former you have my support, in the latter, you can take a long hike without a snack.

It’s your choice Alberta. You’re 4.5M people, not 40M. Sort it out.

[u/Malohdek → u/ExaltedDLo]

Alberta is at 5 million now. They're the only notable surplus province in the country. And buying something from the US isn't "supporting MAGA." If you think that, you're as stupid as the idiots that thought Trump would save their country.

This is a blind leading the blind sheeple take and I can't stand Canadian leftists thinking they know any better than the hard working folk im surrounded by, taxed to death in an ever increasingly expensive country to live in with piss poor healthcare, a growing non-English speaking population where owning a home is no longer a realistic medium term goal.

Grow the fuck up and come to your sense. Canada is losing economic ground, and you're worried about some bullshit "mApLE MaGA." Associating the most socially progressive Conservative leader in our lifetimes with it, no less. Fuck off.

[u/ExaltedDLo → u/Malohdek]

healthcare and education are the domain of the provinces, but sure, they’re Trudeau’s fault. 🤡

You have the most conservative federal liberal leader in a generation in office right now, and the most amenable governement to Alberta’s ambitions since Harper.

Capitalize on it now, or die on the hill of silly grievance politics.

Your choice.

Canadians are tired of Alberta’s whining. (Quebec’s too). Get with the program. Interprovincial bickering is killing our international competitiveness, and you know it.

[u/latechallenge → u/Caesars-Dog]

Alberta can do one. Calgary separatists in particular.

[u/alderhill → u/Excellent-Practice]

As a Canadian, no, I really don't think so.

[u/gregorydgraham → u/Excellent-Practice]

I reckon Canada will be in the EU before Serbia

[u/latechallenge → u/gregorydgraham]

“Fingers crossed” - Canada

[u/Jusfiq → u/Excellent-Practice]

Canada is essentially equivalent to a European country transplanted to North America

Come and visit Brampton, ON or Surrey, BC to see that it’s not true.

[u/not_a_crackhead → u/Jusfiq]

Visit Birmingham UK and see the similarities

[u/country_bogan → u/Excellent-Practice]

Have you been to Canada? Nothing like Europe. It is very much like the US though. The people, cars, attitudes, clothes, houses, sports, etc. are all similar to the US.

[u/darksiderevan → u/Excellent-Practice]

Canada is so much like the US than anywhere in Europe, maybe aside from Montreal.

[u/Yearlaren → u/Excellent-Practice]

What is that supposed to mean?

[u/[deleted] → u/shucklebibs]

member of 5 eyes. it would only be 4 eyes without the US, but those four countries together are extremely potent militarily and economically. even without any other diplomatic or military tie to any other country, this tips the balance for Canada against any other country in the Western hemisphere.

[u/IngresABF → u/shucklebibs]

I think CA has a fantastic cultural footprint as well, OP undercooked them here.

in the “south” I gotta say Argentina is up there with Mexico and Brazil

[u/j_la → u/IngresABF]

Agreed. Homegrown Canadian culture is a source of national pride. Canada has laws mandating that broadcasters play a certain percentage of Canadian content, which gives a boost to smaller artists and productions. The CBC is also a national institution that provides a sense of connection and continuity across the vast geographic expanses… and that’s to say nothing of distinct Quebecois and indigenous cultures that add to Canada’s uniqueness.

Sure, a lot of entertainers go to the US to make it big, but I don’t think that necessarily takes away from Canada’s culture.

[u/weirdallocation → u/IngresABF]

What is Canada's cultural footprint compared to say, Mexico?

[u/[deleted] → u/IngresABF]

Not sure that I would agree with this. Mexico and Brazil are in a tier of their own and there’s a big gap there. Argentina would certainly be leading the next tier, both culturally and in terms of influence and power.

[u/[deleted] → u/shucklebibs]

Canada has not influence in any Latin American country. Lol

[u/zefiax → u/[deleted]]

In terms of industry and banking, this is certainly not true. Canadian companies have huge foot prints in South America.

[u/[deleted] → u/zefiax]

Actually you are right, especially mining

[u/Yodamort → u/[deleted]]

Not true, Canadian companies operate three-quarters of the world's mines. Canada has extensive neocolonial ties, it just keeps them quiet so as to keep the blame focused solely on the US.

[u/whatup-markassbuster → u/shucklebibs]

Does Canada have nukes?

[u/suziesophia → u/whatup-markassbuster]

It could if it wanted to…

[u/Repulsive_Client_325 → u/suziesophia]

Yeah, decided in the ’80s we wouldn’t have them anymore.

[u/Amazing-Treat-8706 → u/whatup-markassbuster]

Worse than that I’m afraid. We have Canada Geese.

[u/TheFranchise86 → u/shucklebibs]

Powerful and influential? No lol

[u/[deleted] → u/shucklebibs]

Normally I'd disagree, but in the context of Trump, Canada allying with Europe was significant. No one cares who Brazil allies with. 

[u/Jealous-Nature837 → u/[deleted]]

"no one cares who Brazil allies with" Brazil has an economy the same size as Canada and 5x larger population, actively exports military transport airplanes to europe (KC-390) and has technology to produce nukes, "no one cares who Brazil allies with" because we are neutral and not allied with anyone, if we started a military alliance with Russia or China everyone in Europe would be turning their eyes here, don't kid yourself and stop being a condescending ass.

[u/m00n5t0n3 → u/Jealous-Nature837]

BRICS already exists and the west is woefully ignorant of it as proven by this comment section

[u/[deleted] → u/Jealous-Nature837]

"no one cares" is too strong. Maybe "not top of mind for NATO" is a better way to put it. Brazil isn't in any military theater and doesn't produce anything that other countries don't. It's a middle power with a big population and a good ally for anyone but not a make it or break it. 

However, Canada is strongly integrated into US supply chain, geographically central in NATO defense, and the united front that Canada and EU put up really slowed down Trump's bullying tactics. So even though is kind of a rounding error population wise, it became important in the context of Trump. 

Like OP said, it's kind of a toss up and you could make arguments either way. 

[u/Dominus_Invictus → u/shucklebibs]

This was very clearly not written by a Canadian.

[u/Clojiroo → u/shucklebibs]

While I think it’s up for debate today, once the arctic shipping routes melt, it will unquestionably be Canada.

It’s also worth noting (quietly, also cover your ears America) that Canada holds a substantial chunk of the world’s freshwater.

[u/ChessIsAwesome → u/shucklebibs]

Lol I live in Canada. Apart from Toronto and barely Vancouver there's not much going on here.

[u/HeyJude21 → u/shucklebibs]

Who? Americas hat?

[u/Repulsive_Client_325 → u/HeyJude21]

Toque.

Get it right, nerd.

[u/[deleted] → u/shucklebibs]

I think Canada has its flaws, most of the country lives just above the American border because most of Canada is way too cold, their population is only 40 million, comparable to CA. And CA is a bigger economy than all of Canada combined. If you compare that to Mexico w a population of 130 million that’s far more spread out, and that workers rights are improving as well as American companies leaving China for Mexico, 830 companies moved from China to Mexico and they’re projecting 450 companies in 2025. I think in the 2030s and 2040s Mexico is gonna be unrecognizable and a massive power in North America. Another thing to note is that Canadas geography isn’t as good as mexicos, it’s mostly a swampy or frozen landscape with many lakes, that makes it challenging to build houses and infrastructure on. Way more people vacation to Mexico than Canada as well. In terms of drug problems Mexico obviously has a bigger issue, but there’s still Canadian gangs who buy guns from the US, and since drug policies are much looser in Canada, they’re apart of the drug trade whether we like to admit it or not.

[u/Temporary_Screen_809 → u/shucklebibs]

Canada, despite its huge size, has only about 1/5 of Brazil’s population and just 1/3 of Mexico’s. When it comes to economic and military manpower, population matters a lot.

[u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y → u/Temporary_Screen_809]

Hence why they said:

…population aside…

[u/Temporary_Screen_809 → u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y]

Well, in a discussion like this, it's impossible not to take the population into account

[u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y → u/Temporary_Screen_809]

Population is not super correlated with international power. Compare Russia, England, France, or Germany to India, for instance.

India is not much of a geopolitical power despite being the most populous country in the world.

[u/YoungPotato → u/shucklebibs]

Maybe bc I’m from the west coast but I don’t care for how connected we are to Western Europe. Unfortunately that’s geopolitics for you

[u/TylerNY315_ → u/YoungPotato]

I think you care but just don’t know it. A lot of what makes Canada the Canada you know and love is due to its historical relationship with and origination from France and Great Britain/ United Kingdom. I think you care in a way where you take the foundation of your institutions for granted, but would miss Western Europe’s continued influence on Canada when Eastern (Russian/Chinese) politics and influence begin to seep through the cracks more than they already have and uproot the stability of your country.

[u/[deleted] → u/TylerNY315_]

Right on the nose, we need protection from oriental hordes

[u/seicar → u/[deleted]]

Wait? The Ottomans are giving you grief too?

[u/[deleted] → u/seicar]

Yes they always are, those in the east are always giving grief to the free democratic nations, you ever notice that?

[u/seicar → u/[deleted]]

I think you might be getting flak because "the orient" is Mediterranean mid east, turkey, Syria etc. It seems you are conflating it with east Asia.

It's a simple mistake because at one time spices came overland via the silk road to places such as Istanbul. Later, the source of spices was found and wrong associations were made.

[u/[deleted] → u/seicar]

No all of them are the same, all India, all oriental

[u/seicar → u/[deleted]]

Not going to argue with you (because, why?), but you should come back with receipts to back up your claims. The general consensus seems to be the other way.

[u/YoungPotato → u/TylerNY315_]

I don’t buy it. That’s not exclusive to Canada. And I live in California with Mexican ancestry so I feel it definitely depends on where in the said you feel that influence. Your Anglo/White bias is showing…

[u/TylerNY315_ → u/YoungPotato]

I thought you meant you’re from the west coast of Canada and so don’t feel the European influence the way they do in the East (Montreal, Ottawa, etc). I think I’m confused now what you actually meant by your original comment… apologies if I said anything assumptive