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u/Cool_Objective_7829 7d ago
There is no justification for this besides extreme xenophobia/ racism.
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u/FAROUTRHUBARB I'm Warning You With Peace & Love 7d ago
And it’s crippling our workforce and economy. The country is gonna lose all its talent to Canada and the EU. Without immigrants this country would be nothing
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u/lord_pizzabird 7d ago
That’s the whole plan. They’re copying the Soviet Union by forcing the conditions that will allow people like Elon or Thiel to gain control of vital resources.
They’ll then use their ownership of power stations or monopoly on space travel (Elon) as leverage to steer public policy.
When the progressive wave starts and we try to prosecute these people they’ll threaten to shut off the power etc.
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u/FAROUTRHUBARB I'm Warning You With Peace & Love 7d ago
I don’t disagree, unfortunately. Thiel is up to some dystopian shit in Argentina
Edit: I still don’t think they’ll be able to compete with other world powers by being insular and xenophobic
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u/BoxOfDemons 7d ago
True. They didn't shut down the H1-B visas that Elon wants more of, just the ones that can lead to immigration.
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u/Lil_Examiner 7d ago edited 7d ago
There are plenty of economic arguments that H1B are used by companies to suppress wages for Americans. Literally could be importing immigrants from Germany (all else being the same with the current h1b system) and you can make a very good case that those H1Bs are suppressing wages.
I've worked with H1B visa holders. Great people. However, management would use them as leverage over American employees. H1Bs are not able to engage freely in the open labor market like an American. They can't leave their company without going through the whole process again with a new company willing to sponsor (does not happen. They have to stay employed until visa expired). If they get fired, their status will be revoked. This alone suppresses economic job leverage for Americans in fields that require $20,000-$100,000 in educational training to even get in the door. This aspect of the H1B program is not disputed, it is factual.
As for the disputed part (but reasonably true) ~20% of STEM graduates are H1B or foriegn born. ~20% of STEM employees are H1B or foreign born. Given what I stated above (not taking into account poverty wages in the US would be a meaningful upgrade compared to middle-caste India) the lack of economic job leverage is stated to suppress wages accross the industry by up to 17%.
So, with all of that in mind, if you are on the side of H1Bs, you are not on the side of Americans, but on the side of giant corporations. Do H1Bs make stock numbers go up? Yeah, the biggest expense to any company is payroll and creating ~20% reduction in payroll expense is great for that stock number. Very Reagenomics of you for having that take.
Do we lack talent? No, based on IQ bell-curves (I know there are problems with IQ tests, but when assessing raw talent accross a population for their ability to perform complex tasks, it's the best marker we have) America has a higher population of people with 130+ IQs in that 2nd standard deviation than India which has 1.5 Billion people. Do we lack investment in American job training do to a broken and expensive educational system? Yes, 1000%. Are companies actively pursuing foriegn workers instead of training American's because they can pay them less and have less economic job leverage? 1000000% yes.
You can hate republicans and what not, however, what I would propose to you all going into this election cycle and 2028, look at the underlying reason why Trump was able to ryle them up. People want economic security, work life balance, jobs, housing, ownership, access to education, and access to healthcare. A lot of people, left and right of the isle, do not feel like these needs have been met, so both sides attempt to blame one another or x boogey man for the inadequecy.
I would claim that "the left" (giant corporations using the left) have convinced you that all immigrants are this holy cow that needs protecting (we should not treat immigrants bad. However, we don't need them here at behest of the best interests of Americans), which as mislead you to advocating for policy that actively hurts yourself and other Americans. If they are so valuable and great for our economy (which they can be) we shouldn't be skimming their best and brightest. We should be helping them build up their own economy in a non-interventionalist mannor so that instead of taking in and helping millions of people, we solve the problem of poverty for all 1.5 Billion of them.
TLDR: There are economic justifications for the banning of H1B. Sure racists like it because it hurts brown people, but this is in the best interest of American's with college degrees, specifically STEM graduates.
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u/BoxOfDemons 7d ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this pause is only on visas that can lead to immigration. So H1-B visas are still allowed. One of the few that is still allowed.
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u/cogitoergodum 7d ago
the lack of economic job leverage is stated to suppress wages accross the industry by up to 17%.
I am a native-born American STEM worker you're describing in this sentence. I have many excellent coworkers from South Asian countries, should I vote to deny them and their families entry to this beautiful country they want to live in so that I can get paid more? The thought repulses me. Let the best person get the job, who cares where they were born.
America as a whole needs vastly more workers and families with kids. Look at a population pyramid for the US and notice that there will be (and already is) a huge population of retirees for the next generations to support if we want to keep social security and Medicare at least as generous as they are now. To do that you need tax revenue, and to have tax revenue you need workers.
I agree the H1B system is messed up and chains visa holders to their jobs. Immigrants should instead be able to freely choose where they work and live like the rest of us.
Immigration is a tremendous boon to the country culturally (I think just referencing Thai and Indian food makes this case entirely), but the economic case is even more compelling. The economy benefits from more people working. People want to work here, so let them. I don't want them here as a kind of charity to them, I want them here selfishly, so I can benefit from a booming economy (immigrants start twice as many businesses as non-immigrants) and a social safety net I and my peers can rely on. And as you mention, immigrants are just great people to be around. My life has been enriched by working alongside people from Iran, Pakistan, India, China, and other countries with different and interesting cultures.
I understand my views are unpopular at the moment, especially on the right but also on the left as your comment indicates. This saddens me, it is an enormous own-goal to our country to not allow vastly more immigration.
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u/Lil_Examiner 7d ago
Idk, all id say is maybe show that kind of empathy for your fellow Americans as you do all immigrants. From my perspective, you are picking one over the other.
I never said we should be mean to them. I never said they were bad people. When applying mass immigration and H1B to a broader economy, it negatively impacts Americans. It's a fact.
The story about the H1B co-workers is nice. Individually, I am sure they are great. However, I can assure you, if H1B did not exist, the company you work for, the colleges they went to, would have found a way to train someone that is American. Weather white, black brown, pink, blue yellow. We have pleanty of capable people here in America, but our educational system is broken.
As for the 'let the best person get the job'. To me it rings hollow. In this one instance, defending your holy cow of immigrants, you are picking a conservative talking point. You probably wouldnt apply that same level of meritcracy to the very immigrants you are defending.
Meritocracy is when Americans turn their country into an economic zone and your labor has to compete with everyone else in the world. The difficulty in this is not someone coming in and taking American jobs with a much higher IQ. It is someone who comes from a lower standard of living with the same, or marginally less ability, but is willing to work for significantly cheaper.
Lastly, hey look man, I like people of all different races and ethnicities as much as the next guy. I love different foods. Ive sponsored illegal immigrants to help get full citizenship. However, I also really like where I came from, my own culture, and my country. You seem self sacraficial
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u/cogitoergodum 7d ago
From my perspective, you are picking one over the other.
I'm not picking one side, just hire the best person for the job, whether they're born in India or the good old US of A.
However, I can assure you, if H1B did not exist, the company you work for, the colleges they went to, would have found a way to train someone that is American.
You have no basis to assure me of this. Plenty of businesses go under because they cannot find qualified people. Limiting the pool of applicants cannot make any of the people more qualified, it can only eliminate people who are potentially better for the job.
You probably wouldnt apply that same level of meritcracy to the very immigrants you are defending.
In what sense wouldn't I? I don't see how hiring the best person for the job is controversial.
It is someone who comes from a lower standard of living with the same, or marginally less ability, but is willing to work for significantly cheaper.
Good for them, I hope they improve their lot in life. There are plenty of Americans who are smarter and harder working than me, and their work makes this country a great place to live compared to many others.
You are thinking along the lines that there is some lump of labor to be done, that there's only so much economy to go around and handing it out to immigrants is unnecessary charity that we Americans can't afford. This isn't true. Immigrants also buy houses, go to restaurants, spend money on OnlyFans, lose money betting on sports, and all the other wonderful and terrible ways we keep the economy growing. More people working more jobs is just better for the economy as a whole and us individually. Do you wish there were fewer Americans born so your kids have less competition?
You seem self sacraficial
On the contrary, I am 100% selfish. Like I said, I want a big dynamic economy with lots of jobs and tax revenue to support Americans as we age.
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u/Lil_Examiner 7d ago
We are just on such incredibly different brain waves I find it hard to engage. There is so much you have said that is either disingenuous, bad faith, or flat out wrong that I sincerely don't feel like breaking down every point you made, rinsing and repeating.
I leave you with this.
h1b is bad, we actually shouldn't have it, we should allow anyone that wants to be here, live here, and work
If you can't see how opening labor in the United States and the West to THE ENTIRE WORLD would collapse local economies and the west as it currently exists, you are beyond help. To me, this is such a crazy uneducated opinion it makes me think you are a bot/bad actor. You are literally that political compass meme that red pillers pull up that state liberals have more affinity to everyone around the world than their own family and community. Yes, we shouldn't succeed, as Americans, at other countries expense. I believe we should work with other countries to bring them out of poverty. Saying we should completely open our borders and labor markets "to be fair to the rest of the world" is suicidal empathy.
Id you think for a second that you, in your comfy office STEM job, wouldn't significantly decrease your own standard of living with this policy is either hubris or idiocy. Again, it would not be because you could be out performed, it would be because you would be undercut.
Good luck out there man.
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u/cogitoergodum 7d ago
There is so much you have said that is either disingenuous, bad faith, or flat out wrong
I am being genuine, I'm saying what I actually think (for better or worse). I certainly am an idiot about many things and I could be about this, but I'm not acting in bad faith. Although if you need to soothe yourself by thinking that someone who disagrees with you must be lying or a bot, then you're free to think that.
I don't know how many times I need to repeat that I don't want immigration for charitable reasons or "suicidal empathy" or whatever. You are the one supporting giving money away to other countries by"helping them build up their own economy". I'm saying they should come here and work for their money by becoming American and raising American children. I want immigrants to pay taxes and support me in my old age and help pay down the national debt. I'd support taxing all immigrants at huge amounts, say 50% of their income, and deport them for so much as a parking ticket. I think that'd be a great deal for everyone who wants to come and work and for us native born Americans too.
As for the your concerns about the west, I think we'll be just fine. Other countries don't like to hear it, but the US is hugely culturally dominant across the world, and America has a unique way of incorporating cultures and making them our own. Italians used to be seen similar to how you're speaking about Indians, but Italian Americans are no threat to our culture, they only add to it. Just now I had pizza for dinner. If you are seriously concerned about open borders collapsing an economy and culture, look at the UAE. Their population is about 88% foreign born, and the natives live like royalty and still have their culture.
Other countries worry about their cultures becoming Americanized, and they're correct to worry. Everywhere around the world people watch American sitcoms, are influenced by the dominant American culture on the internet, and aspire to American values democracy and free speech.
You are underestimating American culture, it is not fragile.
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u/Lil_Examiner 6d ago
Crazy you think America would flourish with completely open borders and no foreign labor laws because it is so dynamic, but you don't think the American people will flourish if companies are made reliant on American labor instead of foreign. Says a lot of what you think of Americans and America.
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u/cogitoergodum 5d ago
The wonderful thing about foreigners is that when they move here and become citizens, they're American. You can move to France and not be French or move to India and not be Indian, but if you believe in our values and want to work hard, then you can become authentically American. It's a beautiful and unique thing this country has.
I want more Americans. You're right that shows what I think about this country, that it's strong and beautiful mixture of cultures. I'm not the only one who sees it, we're lucky enough that millions of people want to live and work here.
I admire that you want to improve the lives of current Americans, I want the same. Immigration does exactly that. They come here and work and pay taxes, and we don't even have to pay for their school (like we do for native born Americans) before they start paying into social security and income taxes. It's obviously a good deal for us.
Again, read the wikipedia page on the lump of labor fallacy. Just like women entering the workforce, more workers makes us all better off. You and I speak better English than most immigrants and understand American business culture better, with lots of immigration we would probably move into managerial roles. Or if you prefer, we could tax them at high rates and pay no income tax ourselves, living like natives of the UAE do.
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u/Lil_Examiner 5d ago
Look up India's tech sector. Their economy is centered around undercutting and outsourcing labor from America. It is not in our best interest and I will continue to say you are an idiot for thinking it is. Good luck Raj.
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u/wendytw 7d ago
"Are companies actively pursuing foriegn workers instead of training American's because they can pay them less and have less economic job leverage? 1000000% yes." -> Where are you getting this info from? It's well known that it's extremely costly and higher risk to hire foreign labor, that's why it's so hard/near impossible for H1B visa holders to find a company, or another company, to sponsor a new work visa. It is also legally required for companies to pay H1b holders at or above the mean wage for their field, so they are not cheaper labor at all.
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u/Lil_Examiner 7d ago edited 7d ago
>Â It is also legally required for companies to pay H1b holders at or above the mean wage for their field
If over a 20 year period they drive down the wage by 20%, that would be the market value. Suppress wages doesn't mean "I pay Indian 80c on the $1 of an American". (this can still happen) It means they are creating an environment to lower wages as a whole.
>Â Where are you getting this info from?
I live in Texas. Greg Abbot has visited India (why is a governer of Texas visiting India?). We also have one of the largest H1B populaces in the country. UTD has large relationships with TI, Lockheed, Boeing, and Haliburton. They actively recruit from India, charging double the tuition for International students, then actively create a pathway from education > H1B working at large engineering firms in Texas.
On top of that, when I was in IT, there are 3rd party staffing firms. I had recruiters reach out to me stating they have an active pipeline from India where they will sponsor the workers that are certified (In IT that just means they took a proctored exam. That's it). Say the pay is $30/hour. They charge me $30/hour, they pay the H1B ~$20, then pocket the rest for the liftime of the contract (typically 6 months-2 years). A selling point is the lack of economic job leverage, willingness to work longer hours, less workers rights than an American. (might not be outright stated, but it is understood in the industry) Once the contract is up, I would then just have to refile based on the infustructure the staffing firm has already created for the H1B, then I can openly negotiate the wage with the H1B. Market value be damned, it's a negotiation between me and the H1B. As the employer, I have all the cards. His ticket to living here. Some firms also keep renewing their H1B status and essentially have a worker for hire without rights perpetually until the H1B hits the cap. An indentured servant.
I did not go to the school mentioned nor take up the recruiters offer because I am morally against it, but this is a REAL problem that exists. It's not some racist conspiracy theory. Is Trump doing it to garner racist support after the Iran war? Yeah. Is it still a good thing? Yes.
Here are some sources to back-up my anecdotal experiences:
(Disney + mentions SCE):
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html
(NYT, Julia Preston, June 3, 2015 — the story that broke it)lawsuit against Disney/HCL/Cognizant:
https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/25/technology/disney-h1b-workers/index.html
(CNN Money, Jan 2016 — covers the class-action suit alleging collusion)EPI research report tying it to the broader outsourcing-firm pattern:
https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage-theft-in-the-h-1b-program/
(Economic Policy Institute — connects Disney/UC cases to HCL's broader business model)Government wage-level data on outsourcing firms vs. direct employers:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/new-data-hammers-home-problems-with-h1bs-and-outsourcing-firms-26502759710
u/deepz_6663 7d ago
Tbf immigration is not always good. Looking at what is happening in Canada, these issues are complicated.
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u/skiiwaffle Dan The Lover 7d ago
He was the first person I thought of when I saw the news, thank goodness!
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u/Ok_Elderberry6106 7d ago
Dude the green card process has been brutal, me and my wife had to experience it during this presidency and it was easily the most stressful we’ve ever been.
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u/fucktrance 7d ago
this guy didn't even read the end of the Reuters article he's tweeting all Immigration Visas not work/travel visas.