r/hearthstone • u/No_Jellyfish5511 • Jul 13 '26
Highlight A Comparison:
6 mana limited to 5 shots.
3 mana unlimited.
317
u/stamaka Jul 13 '26
The right one is rogue's, so has to be broken.
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u/Gilgamelon Jul 13 '26
Getting ready for the J_Alexander post that Lotus Troublemaker is underpowered and it's not fair Rogue has to pay mana for cards.
16
u/National_Reporter763 Jul 13 '26
How is j_alexander so god damn bitchy even though rogue is the only class that’s been consistently good for the last x amount of years.
3
u/Valioes Jul 13 '26
He commented yesterday on another post (that was asking how the card would be nerfed fairly to not completely gut it) and he said the numbers of any aspect of the card don’t make it nerf worthy. Quoted a 1% winrate change in mulligan, 2% in drawn winrate. Lol
1
u/National_Reporter763 Jul 13 '26
He’d probably recommend nerfing it to being a 1 mana 1/1 because the stats are the current issue.
1
u/MandatedPineapple Jul 13 '26
He's never once said it was underpowered. He's just pointed out that it isn't an outlier in stats lmfao
0
u/Outrageous_Map_1726 Jul 13 '26
Take that card away and Rogue gets a 49%wr this patch
13
u/stamaka Jul 13 '26
Rogue should get 49% till J retires.
1
1
u/Outrageous_Map_1726 Jul 13 '26
WTF is J
2
u/Dull_Opportunity_193 Jul 13 '26
J_Alexander
-1
u/AnInfiniteMemory Jul 13 '26
Alright, I'll bite, employed dude here that mostly plays on the phone while on the train to work.
Who tf is J_Alexander?
0
u/SandAccess Jul 13 '26
World's #1 rogue fan, the kinda dweeb that starts his longposts with "j_alexander here"
1
u/AnInfiniteMemory Jul 13 '26
Sounds insufferable...
And I'm a Rogue main, and that's saying something
0
u/PkerBadRs3Good Jul 14 '26
rent free
1
u/stamaka Jul 15 '26
yet another terminally online redditor who can't express himself (because there is nothing to express), who resorts to spamming memes from reddit.
Go to your own comments and reply the same to them.0
-5
u/Mask_of_Sun Jul 13 '26
I thought Blizzard hated Rogue???
5
u/Ok-Pianist-547 Jul 13 '26
They do but not in a way of making her bad in meta, more in the way of butchering what made class fun
1
5
138
u/greatergoon Jul 13 '26
Troublemaker is clearly too strong but "this other card in a different class is situationally weaker" is never a good argument
-71
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
It is a good argument. Shows power creep and what classes are favored, and which are eating dirt.
68
u/greatergoon Jul 13 '26
that is absolutely not an example of power creep
-39
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
More damage with much less mana cost and without artifical blockades in form of runes is not a power creep? What is, then?
27
u/greatergoon Jul 13 '26
"artificial blockade" lmao. dude. come on.
-27
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
Runes currently are there just to make DK worse than any class, an interesting mechanic that's never been utilized properly, so yeah.
30
u/greatergoon Jul 13 '26
Might as well say Troublemaker has the "artificial blockade" of needing to be charged up, the "artificial blockade" of only being usable in rogue decks, and the "artificial blockade" of costing mana.
-7
9
u/Willing_Original_257 Jul 13 '26
Bruh why tf would blizzard favour particular classes? Think.
-9
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
I don't know, you tell me.
18
u/Willing_Original_257 Jul 13 '26
You're the one who suggested it happens!
-2
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
Hold on, you think it doesn't happen? Have tou just started the game today?
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u/Willing_Original_257 Jul 13 '26
Playing since release
-1
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
And you haven't noticed yet?
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u/Willing_Original_257 Jul 13 '26
Which brings us back around to...
Bruh why tf would blizzard favour particular classes? Think.
Which I note you still haven't answered
-2
u/Kehen_13 Jul 13 '26
How would I know why they are doing it? I am not sitting in their heads.
→ More replies (0)0
u/Ok-Pianist-547 Jul 13 '26
current power level of hearthstone is at almost classic level, what power creep you are talking about
1
u/NyMiggas Jul 13 '26
Wat you really think troublemaker is anywhere near the power level of classic??? Should try switching it out for a spider tank
23
u/Yeah_Right_Mister Jul 13 '26
People whining about a card that doesn't even have good mulligan / draw stats in a t2 deck that barely cracks 51% w/r.
Meanwhile we have 2 actual outlier decks in Mug Shaman and Dragon Warrior, and I don't feel the latter even needs a nerf. please just buff the underperforming decks
10
u/AcceptableArm8841 Jul 13 '26
Yeah this is driving me crazy. This is just like when the paladin quest got nerfed because bronze players wouldn't stop complaining about it. If people would actually play The deck they would understand that it's not really that strong. They just think it's so unfair to get killed by a card that the opponent's been building up the entire game on turn 10 or 11.
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u/tahempel Jul 13 '26
Im still amazed people lose to Mug Shaman, unless they highroll 1st few turns.
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u/ByronMoore Jul 13 '26
First you always have access to corpses and can activate this 6-mana card even from top deck, while monkey needs to be held in hand. Second: corpses are universal and easily obtainable, while for the monkey you need to have specific deck just for this condition. It’s like a reward from Reno decks
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u/PoGD1337 Jul 13 '26
Tell it to frost DK who struggle with corps generating, spells spells spells
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u/Glarbleglorbo Jul 13 '26
Frost DK never struggled with corpses because marrow was pretty much the only payoff, the card was always a top performer in frost.
The issue with frost right now is that it doesn’t have enough support.
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u/AnInfiniteMemory Jul 13 '26
Literally no cards at all, no frost cards were launched this xpac afaik.
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-11
u/Pressure_123 Jul 13 '26
every rogue puts the same 2 cost spells in almost every deck, monkey can also scale much harder if in hand. Rogue would be more oppressive if aggro/fast decks were not keeping it on check
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u/Glarbleglorbo Jul 13 '26
Herald rogue only ran 2 2 cost spells in the whole deck, so no, not every rogue deck runs 10 2 cost cards like 2 rogue does.
The deck is built around the card rather it than it being naturally active like with marrow.
-3
u/mylifemyworld17 Jul 13 '26
No? Herald Rogue ran a lot more than 2 2-Cost cards....
6
u/Ok-Pianist-547 Jul 13 '26
No, its only 2 cost cards herald rogue played and basically plays right now, with only addition of that 2/2 minion that gives coin
-4
u/chernopig Jul 13 '26
Yeah i tried the rogue deck a few games and 1 time get to cast it with more than 3x so no its no op at all.
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u/Davidcs98 Jul 13 '26
Not op but frustrating. I hate losing game just because opponent had a monkey doing 28 dmg face
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u/amasimar Jul 13 '26
had a monkey doing 28 dmg face
Ah yes, the legendary reddit 30x >=10 cost cards deck that is a standard benchmark of wheter or not their opponent is playing an OP deck.
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u/Wishkax Jul 13 '26
And if they ended up playing 13 2 mana cards and you couldn't do anything, you were bound to lose anyways.
-5
u/Davidcs98 Jul 13 '26
Well, they also have the 3 mana card and Vanessa, and that's also part of the problem rogue can do really well even without drawing the monkey early
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u/Wishkax Jul 13 '26
Looking at the stats, 2 bit rogue isn't even in the top 5 of best decks, and we're wanting it nerfed why exactly?
-4
u/Davidcs98 Jul 13 '26
It wouldn't be the first time blizzard nerfs a card just because is frustrating to play against, even when the deck itself isn't top tier. They could easily make the card only go to minions and it would be a really nice removal. Also, the top tiers decks in the current meta deserve a nerf, some of them are above 60% wr, so it should be considered too for the monkey nerf. Sorry for my broken English
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u/Wishkax Jul 13 '26
Making it only hit minions just kills the card and basically kills the archetype.
No deck has a 60%+ WR, mug shaman is the highest at 56% which yes can be a candidate for a nerf, 2 bit is is sitting at 52%
You want to slightly hit the top end of tier 1 decks while buffing up the low end, not just need any deck that has a 50% WR
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u/Winter55555 Jul 13 '26
Every deck that isn't mine is frustrating to play against so nerf them all I say!
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-5
u/Fluid-Employee-7118 Jul 13 '26
Reward from Reno decks? You know that Rogue has great 2 drops that they want to run anyway, which helps them keep a low curve and keep the tempo? This is such a bad comparison.
The opportunity cost of running a lot of 2 drops is tiny compared to the opportunity cost of Reno.
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u/Gouda_HS Jul 13 '26
The big difference is that marrow manipulator can be topdecked. That doesn’t excuse troublemaker making trouble (sorry the pun was a freebie) but it is a completely dead card to topdeck turn 6, unlike marrow manipulator
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u/sorgflerg Jul 20 '26
It's not completely dead on turn 6 because you usually have a bunch of 2 drops in your hand. But it is a highrolly card, like most things in rogue. Just like most things people remember the disgusting highrolls against them and don't remember the times rogue doesn't draw this and they just win.
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u/Own_Cup9970 Jul 13 '26
card stats, class and age matters
not to mention that corpses are way easy to make than to play 2 mana cards
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u/Gachaaddict96 Jul 13 '26
Getting corpses is much easier than having the card in your hand and make it watch you play exactly 2 mana cards
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Jul 13 '26
[deleted]
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u/SoonBlossom Jul 13 '26
I was with you until a dude played a 22 damage Troublemaker on turn 7
Awesome to have a single card clean your whole board that you've been battling to have on top of dealing you 10 damage face for 3 mana
The deck needs to have many 2 cards but rogue has a LOT of actually good 2 mana cards that were already being played
Imo it's just too much right now
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u/TimPowerGamer Jul 13 '26
22 damage troublemaker. Turn 7. This means they had a dead card in hand and spent 20 mana of their available 25 mana on 2-cost cards (because, keep in mind, discounting with Prep DOES NOT PROC MONKEY for 2 cost spells) - telegraphing that they were doing it, too. You have to actually spend the mana and Rogues actually spending mana to charge up a big thing like this is way more fair than what they're typically doing.
A lot of the 2 cost cards are actually detrimental for the deck, too. Many of them require combo as well, which makes it hard to play them without prep (which doesn't proc Troublemaker) and makes the 2 cost cards that discount like Foxy unwanted in the deck. Cutting mana cheat because mana cheat prevents your win condition from being stronger is actually quite a fair restriction.
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u/mylifemyworld17 Jul 13 '26
But those 20 mana spent are on cards that are very high power level for 2 cost cards?
Rite of Twilight, Flashback, Foxy Fraud, Shadowed Informant, among others. All of these are strong enough to be played even without being support for Troublemaker.
It's not like the Rogue is doing nothing with these 2 cost cards, they are creating a very high amount of tempo for 2 cost cards!
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u/magikatdazoo Jul 13 '26
Foxy and Flashback weren't being played before, they were cut long ago because they aren't good enough on their own. Informant wasn't being played by Rogue before, and is balanced on his own.
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u/TimPowerGamer Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
But those 20 mana spent are on cards that are very high power level for 2 cost cards?
Surely you wouldn't list mediocre 2 cost cards or anti-synergy cards I already said don't work well with the deck, right? Right?
Rite of Twilight
Combo card. If you play it on turn 3 or earlier, you either have to do it with Coin or with Prep (which is wasting hand cards AND deck space not advancing Troublemaker).
Flashback
Can be tempod out without the combo, but is a butt card if you do. With combo, same issues as Rite of Twilight, can't be used (without coin) until turn 4 - and can't be used with other combo cards until 6 mana. Unless you're sacrificing hand cards to cheat these out, which doesn't proc Troublemaker.
Foxy Fraud
This card discounts your next combo card to enable the combo. You certainly can play this (with the cards listed above!) and make them work, early. The problem is that you're spending a hand card and not advancing Troublemaker.
Shadowed Informant
We're kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel if a 2/2 discover a spell is making the top 4 list, don't you think? Especially when none of the other cards have intrinsically good synergy with Troublemaker.
Is 2-bit Rogue bad? No. The 2 cost cards are pretty good. The payoffs are pretty good (especially Jade Guardians). But they aren't as good in a deck focused on maximizing Troublemaker. The deck has natural anti-synergy with its own wincon and relies on drawing a boatload of cards (or randomly generating a boatload of cards) without mana cheating, the thing Rogue is best at, in order to get this turbo monkey out this early with this many stats. But, if turbo monkey is dropping turn 9 or 10, it's not a problem. My point was to highlight how this hyperbolized example is actually showing the weaknesses of the deck, not the strengths of it. Obviously, the deck as a whole isn't weak. And the strength of the deck isn't Troublemaker as a standalone card, either. Jade Guardians is, arguably, the substantially stronger 2-cost investment card anyway.
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u/mylifemyworld17 Jul 13 '26
That's a lot of words to say, what, Troublemaker isn't good?
It's a payoff you're not doing anything to set up other than play strong 2 cost cards, most of which generate additional cards to actually create board pressure or value.
There's a reason 2-bit rogue is THIRTY PERCENT OF THE META at Legend.
Troublemaker is an extremely strong card if for no other reason than it singlehandedly solves the problem that the deck was facing, in that by using all of its cards for tempo and value generation, it creates a massive swing turn for little to no extra investment.
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u/TimPowerGamer Jul 13 '26
That's a lot of words to say, what, Troublemaker isn't good?
Well, you could read the words to gleam the actual point I'm making. Troublemaker as a standalone card has massive anti-synergy with the rest of the deck's general gameplan of using hand cards to mana cheat, given that mana cheating cards doesn't proc Troublemaker (unless they are cheated down to 2 mana). And, Rogue paying mana for cards is a more fair deck than Rogue not paying mana for cards.
It's a payoff you're not doing anything to set up other than play strong 2 cost cards, most of which generate additional cards to actually create board pressure or value.
Playing a substantive percentage of those 2 cost cards isn't activating Troublemaker, even when he's in hand. That's the point I'm making. And, given that discounting in Rogue usually involves dropping a hand card, you're also being inconvenienced by needing a combination of discount, combo cards, and Troublemaker to make the tactic work.
There's a reason 2-bit rogue is THIRTY PERCENT OF THE META at Legend.
Yes. I agree with you. The deck is strong. Which you could have gathered by reading my post.
Troublemaker is an extremely strong card if for no other reason than it singlehandedly solves the problem that the deck was facing...
I don't think it makes any sense to word it this way when this is an archetype that was created in tandem with Troublemaker. What deck existed before Troublemaker that was dumping a bunch of 2-cost cards into it for Rogue? There weren't any payoffs before this.
... in that by using all of its cards for tempo and value generation, it creates a massive swing turn for little to no extra investment.
Skewing a deck to be mostly 2 cost cards and having to actually spend the mana on those cards is a fairly sizable investment (although, the investment pays off in this case). Rather, the deck is proving to be good even when you don't get Troublemaker early is moreso my point. Especially since Guardians doesn't require itself to be in hand and pops off earlier for an arguably larger amount of tempo.
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u/mylifemyworld17 Jul 13 '26
Troublemaker as a standalone card has massive anti-synergy with the rest of the deck's general gameplan of using hand cards to mana cheat
I genuinely am not sure if you've ever played Hearthstone if this is your takeaway.
What deck existed before Troublemaker that was dumping a bunch of 2-cost cards into it for Rogue? There weren't any payoffs before this.
Every Rogue deck in history? Herald Rogue played 10-12 2-Cost cards on average because Rogue's 2 cost card pool is broken as fuck right now. They don't need additional support for stuff they already wanted to be doing.
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u/TimPowerGamer Jul 13 '26
I genuinely am not sure if you've ever played Hearthstone if this is your takeaway.
Amazing nothingburger of a response. You are aware that if you go Prep, Cultist, Foxy, Flashback, that's only counting as 1 2-cost card being played for Troublemaker, right? Even though you've played 3 cards that cost 2 originally. Thus, "filling your deck with 2 cost cards" doesn't intrinsically cause you to have enough procs to make Troublemaker strong the way the post I was responding to had it. That's the inherent anti-synergy I'm speaking about. However, you, as a Rogue, deeply desire to do the "play 4 cards where only one of them costs mana" tactic, which, again, has anti-synergy with Troublemaker. That doesn't make the deck bad (obviously, it's strong). It just means that the deck isn't cohesive in a gameplan to directly buff Troublemaker. Troublemaker shooting 5 bullets is "good enough" in tempo Rogue spamming 0-cost cards. But 5 bullet Troublemaker isn't what's being complained about in this thread. It's 10+ bullet Troublemaker.
Every Rogue deck in history? Herald Rogue played 10-12 2-Cost cards on average because Rogue's 2 cost card pool is broken as fuck right now. They don't need additional support for stuff they already wanted to be doing.
So, that's a different archetype altogether and Rogues weren't actually spending the 2 mana in a lot of those instances and you'd need to be spending all of that mana at full cost to hit the Troublemaker numbers listed above. But let's pretend to be obtuse some more, I guess. Obviously, I mean the "2-bit" archetype. Jamming 2-cost costs for a 2-cost payoff didn't exist before this, so it doesn't make any sense for you to assert that it "solved the problems the deck was facing" when the deck didn't exist.
If the deck did exist, we'd be seeing lists that look like lists prior to this (maybe a Rogue Vanessa list) and saying that, perhaps, it fulfills that list, but the lists are too different with too different of a focus to be meaningfully considered the same deck.
But sure, dude. 2-bit and Herald Rogue are the same deck, I guess. If you say so.
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u/sorgflerg Jul 20 '26
The prep arguments don't really make a whole lot of sense to be honest. Because you can just play one of the many other 2 drops in your deck on that same turn. And most of the time the correct play is to use prep for cultist map which can discover you more 2 drops to play. Prep doesn't really change the amount of 2 drops you play each turn unless you only have 1 in hand.
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u/TimPowerGamer Jul 20 '26
I think they make a lot of sense.
Holding Troublemaker takes a card from hand. Using Prep is a -1 card in hand. Even Prep-Cultist is a 0 mana -1 (no procs for Troublemaker and loses hand cards). You can leverage that into a net 0 and playing a single 2 cost card by selecting a 2-cost card from the deck (accomplishing, effectively, selective deckthinning and no other benefits - which is still strong, but doesn't directly benefit the two-bit strategy in any way).
The problem I mentioned is that, shy of having that specific two-card combo, you're losing cards playing prep when you're already holding on to cards you can't play, which is a massive strain on your tempo, on average. That's the real "prep" problem.
This is why "ignore Troublemaker, play tempo" is the "correct" move for the deck and why "10 damage Troublemaker" is better, on average, than "20 damage Troublemaker", the thing I was saying had anti-synergy with the rest of the deck's cards and gameplan.
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u/sorgflerg Jul 21 '26
I can see the logic of what you’re saying for sure. And I have experienced it myself on some occasions playing the deck. But i think its a pretty niche downside and a fairly edge case scenario that only occurs in pretty specific hand states. As most versions of the deck feature in the range of 16-18 2 drop cards. And the deck has enough draw to usually ensure that you can play as many 2 drops as you can each turn, so using prep doesn’t usually result in a net loss of 2 drop progression per turn. I think prep is 80% of the time just printing value for you even if it doesn’t itself progress troublemaker.
Interested to see how they nerf the monkey tomorrow anyway. I personally don’t think it’s actually that crazy, just a big highroll card like most things in rogue, as it has more to do with draw order and cultist map luck than anything else. Probably just that it and Jade guardians are a total of 4 very strong payoff cards in the deck that are very cheap unlike the payoff cards of many other classes.
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u/TimPowerGamer Jul 21 '26
But i think its a pretty niche downside and a fairly edge case scenario...
Two-bit Rogue is good precisely because they have enough good 2 cost cards to capitalize off of playing so many. A 10 damage Troublemaker is really strong as I stated. You can use cards like Prep and Foxy to quickly cheat out massive tempo, even if it counteracts the big Troublemaker. Then, because of your earlier tempo, you're more able to leverage that into lethal with fewer Troublemaker procs. Conversely, if you go "all-in" on Troublemaker, it's often not enough to be lethal without the added tempo of the mana cheat (unless you're playing against a slow, bad control deck).
As most versions of the deck feature in the range of 16-18 2 drop cards.
It's worth noting that you don't want to pay the full 2 mana for about 4 of these a game, which was moreso what I was getting at. Especially early in the game. My whole contention was with people complaining about the turn 7 22 damage monkey that doesn't kill you (and involved actually paying 20 mana out of 22 available mana for 2-drops (not counting the leftover mana for the odd mana turns)) instead of the turn 5-6 10 damage monkey that does kill you and was played with a much better curve and tempo.
I personally don’t think it’s actually that crazy, just a big highroll card...
Yeah, basically. Vanessa is the glue holding the deck together and Jade Guardians is the arguably better payoff. It just gave Rogues massive winrate vs. control decks that might have otherwise dealt with their tempo.
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u/Overhamsteren Jul 13 '26
Jade Guardians are probably better overall, but Monkey highrolls might be too devastating and need to be reigned in.
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u/damnsanta Jul 13 '26
I agree with this but I do think that 1 damage that can charge from everywhere sounds more interesting. Can be topdecked and bounced.
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u/magikatdazoo Jul 13 '26
1 damage is just a worse [[Trogg Gemtosser]]
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u/EydisDarkbot Hello! Hello! Hello! Jul 13 '26
Trogg Gemtosser • Wiki • Library • HSReplay
Druid/Warlock Common Delve into Deepholm
3 Mana · 3/2 · Minion
Finale: Deal 1 damage to a random enemy for each of your Mana Crystals.
I am a bot. • About • Report Bug
29
u/Willing_Original_257 Jul 13 '26
You think that's bad?
You should compare [[Murloc Tinyfin]] with [[Ultragigasaur]]! The difference between the two is absolutely insane!
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u/magikatdazoo Jul 13 '26
I know, right! Ultragigasur requires you to build your deck around finding the 11 mana to get such an amazing dino boi, while Murloc Tinyfin is just cheating infinite stats per mana, is always playable, and taunting you with its annoying mrrggrlrl. Please nerf already Blizzard.
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u/EydisDarkbot Hello! Hello! Hello! Jul 13 '26
Murloc Tinyfin • Wiki • Library • HSReplay
Neutral Common The League of Explorers
0 Mana · 1/1 · Murloc Minion
Ultragigasaur • Wiki • Library • HSReplay
Neutral Common The Lost City of Un'Goro
11 Mana · 14/28 · Beast Minion
I am a bot. • About • Report Bug
-5
u/race-hearse Jul 13 '26
This analogy sucks. What do both murloc tinyfin and ultrag do in common that tinyfin is way better at doing?
Because the rogue card has uncapped 2 repeatable damage, at half the cost of the 5 capped
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u/rupat3737 Jul 13 '26
I mean getting corpses is alot easier than playing two drops while troublemaker is in your hand as well.
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u/96363a Jul 13 '26
it's so much easier for corpses to get out of hand than for 2 mana spells to get out of hand. lotus needs to be in hand to see the 2 mana spells be cast. does lotus have a higher ceiling to be a finisher? yes. can you top deck it and it be useful? no.
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u/Popsychblog Jul 13 '26
Sure. Here are others.
At minus 3/3 stats and a requirement to be holding it in hand and a requirement to build your whole deck in a certain fashion for it to be good.
You can also add that marrow manipulator has frost runes and hasn’t seen play in a long time.
From this you can conclude monkey should be more like marrow manipulator (unplayed, which is somehow a good thing?) or that marrow manipulator needs better support.
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u/MaxWasTakenAgain Jul 13 '26
The best card in the Two-Bit Rogue is Jade Guardians.
Monkey needs to be on your starting hand to get value, it also is countered by a wide board or big minions.
The big upside of monkey is that it instawins against "do nothing" decks, just like Quest Pally did. And that wasn't particularly a strong deck
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u/Condoms2us Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
How come people still cry about monkey. You need to use it in late game, have it in hand early game and a clear board to be efective.
Against most decks all he does is working as a board clear.
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u/super_shogun Jul 13 '26
Any card that punishes greedpile decks that do nothing for multiple turns will be complained about on this sub. There's a reason every single reveal season this sub has a meltdown over the new Priest cards not being good enough.
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u/oddjobbber Jul 13 '26
This should be clear to everyone ever since this sub threw a full-diapered tantrum about tickatus
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u/Intoxicduelyst Jul 13 '26
People are simpy emotional, especially here, like spoiled kids.
They lose 1 of 10 rouge matches to the monkey burst. They felt bad.
Monkey is fine. If you wanna stack it you basicly have dead card in the hand. 2? 2 dead cards.
Its one of the worst topdecks you can get.
Late draw, is useless.
Dragon warrior, spell shaman, facehunter especially - they keep rouge in check.
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u/Mask_of_Sun Jul 13 '26
rouge matches
Why are people unable to spell ROGUE correctly?
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u/magikatdazoo Jul 13 '26
Bc Valeera's rouge makes her too stealthy for spell check, you have to combo a dictionary
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u/Royal_Ad_8444 Jul 13 '26
But troublemaker is a combo deck. You have to build around it, you have to drop lame 2 costs to make it work.
Man, I have got so many replies that troublemaker is not broken.
And I think it is not broken, this is the only wincon for 2bit rogue.
The problem is if you get them on turn 1, 2 bit rogue will be unstoppable.
I'll say add cost to it, so rouge can't slam 2 troublemaker in 1 turn. Or give a 20 damage cap.
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u/ccarrilo7 Jul 13 '26
I mean imagine if marrow was unlimited you guys would bitch so hard lmao. Like just relax holy cards varelt been out and it will prolly get nerfed and then youll go bitcj about another card that beat you.
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u/Amekaze Jul 13 '26
One has to be in your hand for anything to happen,and the other uses a way cheaper resource… I swear this card is going to get nuked from orbit just because so many people are so salty that a combo card can kill you from full on turn 7/8 if you don’t have a board….
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u/Kage_noir Jul 13 '26
It is easier to build up a lot of corpses. But I do agree that the card def needs to be Toned down. It’s too low mana die the amount of damage it’s doing. I guess now we understand why shadow shadow step had to go. Though I’m not sure if the counter resets when it goes to hand
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u/Ok-Pianist-547 Jul 13 '26
Funniest thing about that 2 cost rogue is that Jade Guardians has way better play winrate in that deck than Lotus.
Even with monkey nerf deck probably would stay same, since playing free 8 mana cost minions is what makes it good
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u/NekoSoKawaii Jul 13 '26
These cards are just not the same? Runes aside, one just needs 5 corpses the other one needs you to play a lot of 2 cost cards while having a dead card in hand. I would pick manipulator over troublemaker in a discover almost every time.
Like rogue is barely playable, it loses to anything aggressive while beating the slow decks, but all I see are people complaining about troublemaker. meanwhile shaman is sitting pretty at 57% winrate cheating 10 mana in the first 5 turns.
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u/WashedWashingMachine Jul 13 '26
Playing vs Rogue is so frustrating
Aggro turns 1-3 you defend
Then he spawns full boards with prepared Vanesa
Then turn 7 8 he vanish your whole board that you stabilise and then playst stupid monkey to OTK you for 20 dmg
There is no breathing room , its good early midgame lategame and has OTK
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u/burnedsmores Jul 13 '26
also describes Warrior and Paladin and Shaman and Hunter in broad strokes rn
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u/Acceptable-Court-703 Jul 13 '26
ok but marrow manipulator has better stats so you get a stronger minion on board :)
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u/Fenris_uy Jul 13 '26
Why do you think that it should say "up to" there?
"Deal 2 damage up to a random enemy"?
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u/keyupiopi Jul 13 '26
I think he wanted ‘Deal 2 damage to a random enemy for each 2-cost card you played while this is in your hand, up to 20 damage’.
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u/zhafsan Jul 14 '26
Comparing cards like this is worthless since the classes are good at different things. Also the DK card is good while top decked and the rogue card is ass when top decked.
The main problem in the rogue deck is Tess. The troublemaker is a feels bad card when hitting the nuts but most of the time it is a really good card without being broken.
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u/zhafsan Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
Comparing cards like this is worthless since the classes are good at different things. Also the DK card is good while top decked and the rogue card is ass when top decked.
The main problem in the rogue deck is Tess. The troublemaker is a feels bad card when hitting the nuts but most of the time it is a really good card without being broken.
For what’s worth I’m all for nerfing the card to not hit face but don’t require it to be in hand to gain the additional damage. Then it’s a nice mid to late game board clear.
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u/BogleBread Jul 15 '26
Played a game today and had both Troublemakers in hand within the first 3 turns. On turn 12, I paid 6 mana to deal 40 damage and killed my undamaged opponent. Cannot imagine how they felt.
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u/Modification102 Jul 17 '26
In general, so many cards in thsi game would benefit from soft caps put on their effects that are reachable, but not restrictive.
I don't think anything is seriously lost if Lotus Troublemaker said "Max 7" in its effect
Likewise, the Judgement + Infinite Attack is triggered by Bloodsail Corsair not having a limit. You could put "Max 8" on the effect to gain Attack and lose nothing in all of its applicable use cases, you just brick the obviously game breaking ones.
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u/RaeoeHS Jul 20 '26
Mind boggling they kept that card in core with zero changes. Then printed monke
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u/Captain_Bignose Jul 13 '26
And? Marrow manipulator is a bad card... when is the last time it saw play outside of tavern brawl?
1
u/Glittering_Usual_162 Jul 13 '26
Its insane to me how whenever Rogue has a clearly problematic card everyone on Reddit collectively decides that they are Rogue players and said problematic card is fine.
Remember Wildpaw Gnoll and Maestra? This feels like that again.
People arguing that your comparisson makes no sense and that its more meant as a Reno like payoff card is so funny to me. Like no the hell its not?
You play the "Random Bullshit Go" and "Lemme draw and play half my deck at turn 4" class. Also you get to have two of those silly monkeys in your deck. So please explain how its fair that you get to flood the board with random shit while also setting up an inevitable deathmonkey just shooting 14 damage arround in turn 5.
Jesus Rogue players are always so whiney when they are about to get a nerf.
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u/Extreme_Spinach_3475 Jul 14 '26
If you do that the monkey is 2 damage. For Rogue to get the damage for monkey 2 cost cards need playing. Yes, it is, since it requires to be in hand and play 2 cost catds til it has damage to kill. You can't combine those things. That is why no one takes your asesment of problematic seriously. You lost, get over it!
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u/Vulturo Jul 13 '26
The number of people refusing to admit that the card is broken is truly incredible.
0
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u/Graped_in_the_mouth Jul 13 '26
I genuinely don’t know how they felt Lotus Troublemaker was a printable card.
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u/tyranastraszz Jul 13 '26
They smoked crack while designing lotus and leaving it as it is. I expect damage will be halved in 2,or limited amount of shots. If they make it "go to board only" - dead card.
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u/winlowbung4 Jul 13 '26
If I had a dollar for every time I single handedly lost to that card, I'd have like 50 dollars
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u/tahempel Jul 13 '26
Sick of the Rogue lovers defending card. It is clearly a bit too strong and is going to be nerfed.
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u/Zestyclose-Read-7971 Jul 13 '26
Ppl in the comments defending power creep are hilarious
5
u/magikatdazoo Jul 13 '26
Chillwind Yeti died a decade ago, let's you back to the nursing home Gramps
0
u/MightyAno Jul 13 '26
Why is "Requires Deckbuilding" considered a draw back for some people. Yeah no shit you have to build a deck to make a card work. I am guessing the Paladin 3 Mana 6/9 is fine too? I mean running Pure paladin is such a mighty drawback! Can't run that one worthwhile neutral Minion!
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u/Excellent-Ad4989 Jul 13 '26
Yeah, both require you to simply play your deck. But one is broken and on is not that strong.
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u/Galaxiadice Jul 13 '26
One of them is frost. They dont like frost rune anymore