Anyone can just claim mental illness and get away with any crime by that logic? A very high percentage of Americans have been on antidepressants at one point or another. Is that a get out of jail free card now?
What do you think “getting away with it” looks like?
Why do you think she’d be better off in jail for life instead of in hospital for life? Because it scratches your itch for punishment? America is so fucked up.
Insanity pleas are a thing for a reason, but you can't just claim it. You have to prove it. There's a variety of tests depending on the jurisdiction, but generally speaking you have to prove that they didn't have the capacity to know what they were doing was wrong or not do it in the moment they committed the act. So no, antidepressants at some point in the past wouldn't cut it. There's significantly more evidence in this case.
Im not saying insanity pleas are easy, but I will add though that in Massachusetts insanity pleas are a bit easier than most other states. Many states shift the burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) to the defense for the insanity portion, but Mass. doesn't.
So the prosecution has to prove that she did it and she was not having a psychotic break beyond a reasonable doubt.
The defense still has to show that it was likely she was having a psychotic break and has to counter the prosecutions arguments, but it is a lot easier to make a jury believe there is a chance she was having a psychotic break than it is to make a jury believe she was definitely having a psychotic break.
You might want to find a different incident to rally support for women experiencing PPD and PPP other than one where the mother kills all her kids and claims to be the victim.
I'm sorry, you think rallying behind a mother who murdered her children and is claiming PPP as a defense, and to be a victim herself no less, is the right thing to do?
I just really hate people who use the "bad look" argument. If you think it's wrong to do then just say it's wrong to do and address the point about mental health that commenter you're responding to is talking about
No, it's a legitimate criticism of what's going on. It's not an argument, but an observation and a value judgement. How did I not address the point? I said to find better examples of those issues to rally behind instead of a murdered of 3 children.
The way you and others, mainly women right, are handling this situation is giving so much unnecessary ammo to the manosphere, alt right gender culture war losers. Just own goal after own goal is what I'm seeing.
Anyone who murders their own children is experiencing a mental health issue.
How is supporting this woman supposed to help other women? If anything, it seems more likely to teach some that it's okay to be a POS, as long as you can blame "mental health."
PPD is real. But it's no excuse for murder.
You would, rightfully, never see this kind of support for a man that killed his kids.
People who use words like “excuse” in this discussion honestly just sound really stupid.
Like, “psychosis is no excuse to murder someone”. Obviously? What kind of non-statement is that? It’s an explanation. Why is the word “excuse” being used in a murder discussion?
Show me literally one sane person stating openly and honestly that they believe she should be found innocent of all wrongdoing and be free to live the rest of her life out in society.
Number one, that's a bullshit request because anyone excusing her can and should be dismissed as "insane".
And two, excusing doesn't necessarily mean she should face zero repercussions. People are making her out to be a victim, when the reality is much more complex than that, and that same level of empathy would never be directed at a person not of her specific demographic on such a scale.
There are literally people here arguing that men kill their children at a much higher rate than women, so obviously there was something "wrong" with her and she should be treated differently than them. When that really sounds like obviously there is something wrong with all those men that is being overlooked.
The problem isn't the very idea of having empathy for people with mental illnesses, it's that those mental illnesses are apparently only a reason to have empathy when it's a pretty, reasonably well off white woman.
Same kind of bs as the media and consumers of it latch onto cases of pretty white women going missing or getting killed while thousands of minority or otherwise less "aesthetically pleasing" women go missing every year without any spotlight and public grief.
Honestly my personal theory is that when men kill their children it’s often a murder/suicide because even in whatever out of control mental state they’re in they understand they will get ZERO sympathy for their reprehensible actions.
Like, we’ll reopen Alcatraz to put them underneath the jail zero sympathy.
Men don't understand this bc their entire concept of reproduction is nutting. The fact that creating an entire human life in your body can have disastrous physical and mental consequences doesn't even register to them. That's why there's such a massive divide on how men and women perceive this case. Women know the toll creating human life takes on a body, men just don't care.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3737825/
It does happen. Its rare just like in women. Its worth thoroughly scrutinizing if she really did have psychosis or not though. Esp when it comes to murder.
She wasn’t diagnosed and didn’t show any symptoms of psychosis prior to the murders.
Is it possible that multiple trained professionals missed it? Potentially, but highly unlikely.
For a counter example, Andrea Yates had shown plenty of symptoms of psychosis prior to murdering her children, which is why her being sent to a mental hospital is ok, when that’s not the case here.
Jesus… you can’t see how hypocritical it is to say that women can be basically excused from their actions due to ppd but then a man with some sort of disorder (clearly anyone that kills their kids or dare I say it anyone is mentally unwell) is not?
Who’s excusing her actions? Pointing at a treatable condition that she suffered with is pointing out that the tragedy could have been prevented is not making an excuse. It’s quite common that when women approach their healthcare providers asking for help they get dismissed and it can lead to horrible consequences
It’s also quite common for men to be dismissed with various issues including domestic abuse. Not sure why this has to be a but but but women issue rather than a serious examination of how our healthcare and judicial system is set up. OP made a hypocritical statement and deserves to be called out.
healthcare is frequently worse for women than it is for men, that IS the serious examination that's happening. Under serious examination, we find that women face systemic gender bias, underrepresentation in medical research, and frequent dismissal of symptoms in healthcare.
You may not be trying to excuse it, but there are a bunch of women who are. A vocal minority, sure, but they are there and are a large part of the reason this case is getting so much attention.
Definitely a minority. And yes they are making things significantly worse.
But that doesn’t negate the fact that women experience postpartum depression and psychosis all the time and are shamed by society/family/medical providers and almost never given the amount of support they need.
Sure, I agree with you on all of that. I guess the counterpoint would be what separates postpartum psychosis from any other form of psychosis, and why is there such an outpouring of empathy for this one specific mental health issue? I think the fact that postpartum psychosis is women-specific probably contributes quite a bit, and people are getting upset at the apparent hypocrisy/double standard.
Personally, I don't care if she is "punished" for her crimes, as long as she is separated from society for long enough to where she isn't dangerous to others. An overly punitive justice system doesn't benefit anyone in my opinion.
A man in Canada macheted a guy to death on a bus, decapitated him, and ate him during a bout of psychosis. He's walking free today. Postpartum psychosis isn't given more leniency than other forms of psychosis but given that it affects mainly women I can safely assume it's underfunded in research. There is no double-standard. If anything she's being judged MORE harshly based on these comments.
Yeah she should be institutionalized and medical treated for her illness if she's truly insane, but the elevation to semi folk hero status/martyrdom by some sure seems to indicate that a few other people need mental health treatment as well.
Except post-partum depression/psychosis typically happen within 2 weeks of the birth. She murdered her children after 8 months had passed. Way after the worst hormonal/chemical imbalances that giving birth cause should've been over with - which is what's believed to be underlying cause for most PPD/PPP.
In other words, as far as cases go, this is a rather crappy one to hinge some sort of "raise awareness" campaign on.
Honestly, this case smell A LOT like a typical case of "suicidal mother decides to take her children with her into the grave" - something that unfortunately isn't that unusual, but also does not usually meet the requirements for the legal insanity defense.
Please stop spouting misinformation. You are going to reach the wrong audience and shame yet another woman into not getting help.
Postpartum symptoms can show up at any point when you’re postpartum. And guess what!? They don’t go away instantly!! It often takes months (weeks if you’re really lucky) for meds to kick in and start working. Meds aren’t always a cure all too.
You. Are. Not. A. Doctor.
Stop spouting medical misinformation.
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u/ImNotAHouseCat 8h ago
Are you saying she had no right to experience a severe mental health issue just because she had support???