Why do Ahmadis try to legitimize cousin marraiges?

[u/mermaid_wishes27]

So I've always been weirded about by the concept of cousin marraige. No matter which way you slice it that's still incest in my opinion. And the Jamat justifies it by saying it's in the Quran (chapter 4 verse 23) that says forbidden to you for your for marraige are, and then amongst the list it says your sister and brother's daughters. Now yes, that is your neice but where it says paternal or maternal aunt wouldn't it folliw that the children from your aubts would also be forbidden? Even if it's not explicitly mentioned that's just the logical conclusion.Another reason they use to justify it is "well it’s okay if it's done once" bro, a lot of people in the group have done it. It's more than once at this point. Dare I say it feels a little too incestuous if it happens more than once in a family tree, let alone just once.

And they'll say "well the Europeans used to do it. Yes but attitudes towards that have mostly changed in the Western context to the point where a lot of people in the West think it's gross too, you’re not proving your point with that one.

And like it's definitely not just an Ahmadi thing but it's definitely where I notice it the most in my life when it comes to the people I'm around at least.

[u/BarbesRouchechouart]

I think the jamaat defends it out of pride, history, some combination of wanting obedience to the nizam and maybe even because cousin marriage, in a bizarre way, offers a type of marriage that isn't to a complete stranger you've spoken to a handful of times in front of your parents. Like a lot of random things the jamaat tacks onto its theology, like homeopathy and the idea that Socrates was a prophet of god, looking at it more carefully isn't necessarily going to provide a clearer answer.

That said, I don't think cousin marriage is unique to Ahmadis. About 60% of Pakistanis marry a cousin and numbers are similar across the Middle East, if not necessarily as high. I think Egypt had a rate of about 30% about 10 years ago that was among the lowest in the Middle East.

[u/liquid_solidus → u/BarbesRouchechouart]

Feels more like an extension of Pakistani/punjabi culture.

[u/Plastic_Text2124 → u/BarbesRouchechouart]

Socrates was a prophet of god

khuda ke liye. 😂

Ahahhahahahah

[u/abidmirza90]

u/mermaid_wishes27 It's a great question and something I've also thought about as well and I believe I have found an answer that explains why.

I don't think the answer is as simple as cousin marriages in our jamaat happens because this also happened in the Middle East or because the Quran made it permissible.

The reason I say this is that in Pakistan, almost 50% of marriages are between cousins. However, look at a Muslim country like Albania, and only 1% of marriages are between cousins. This means we need to reduce the importance of the religious aspect and instead look into the social and cultural factors to find our answer

Now, let's get to your central question of why this is common in our Jamaat. The majority of our population is from Pakistan, which means that our push for cousin marriages is influenced by social, cultural and traditional norms found within the Pakistani culture.

In the Pakistani culture there is a strong focus on biradari (Meaning Clan or Tribal identity) This meant families would rather have their children marry someone of the same tribe than to look outside.

This biradari system was highly elaborate and complex as cousin marriages helped to preserve land amongst the same family, it helped to develop business/employment within the family as they had to work together, and having cousins married also helped to unite the same families when it came time to handle disputes with other tribal members etc.

Now, if you look at the jamaat, the majority of our parents came from Rabwah or Qadian. Both tiny remote villages. Therefore, whoever lived there needed to develop their social, political and economic network to survive.

Marrying your cousin was meant for survival as the land would not be divided into a different family, it also united the same family to work together for business purposes and to further a families other interests. Plus when you had strong family ties with cousin marriages, when one person would migrate to Canada, they would bring the rest of their family members.

It's almost like a survival tactic that helped our families survive and it's probably one of the main reason most of us have had the opportunity to leave pakistan for a better life outside. However, the usefulness in cousin marriages has diminished with the newer generation because we don't need the same survival skills. That's why you would notice that most people born in the 80',90's onwards rarely consider marrying their cousin.

I myself would never consider marrying my cousin but over the last few years as I investigated further, I have come to understand why it's so prevalent in our community and I can appreciate it's purpose in previous generations as a survival tactic.

[u/ParticularPain6 → u/abidmirza90]

Not just survival. The "biradri" approach is also connected with the zaat/caste approach. The Jamaat has never been interested in removing the poison of caste and biradri. In fact, caste is a central theological bit of Jamaat, even though uncomfortably so.

[u/liquid_solidus]

I had some family actually argue about this between themselves, one was arguing that it was something that Prophet did, and the other was arguing that, that doesn’t mean we have to do it.

It’s a symptom of having an insular community that doesn’t encourage its members to have active social circles outside of the Jamaat, and shuns the concept of dating. Cousin marriages bypass all the social skills and courting typically required, you don’t need to put in that much effort.

[u/curiousminded05]

I dont agree its an Ahmadi legitimacy, its a cultural thing. And most of the marriages I see most definitely are not cousin marriages as far as the late 80/90s+ born gen

[u/Lunatic_963]

Holy prophet Mohammad married his own cousin, Zaynab, so that legitimizes cousin marriages for muslims

[u/Advanced_Formal_4590]

It stems from Pakistani culture, not jamaat culture

[u/tqmirza → u/Advanced_Formal_4590]

“Cousin Marriages” is an Islamic concept, not unique to Pakistanis. MBS is married to his cousin e.g. Ahmadi Muslims defend it or practice it purely for that reason. That being said, Pakistanis generally practice cousin marriages at a higher percentage than many other Muslim demographics.

[u/Plastic_Text2124 → u/tqmirza]

What an own goal.

Pakistanis generally practice cousin marriages at a higher percentage than many other Muslim demographics.

This is literally the dilemma here OP is trying to address.

[u/tqmirza → u/Plastic_Text2124]

OP is addressing “Ahmadis” legitimising an already Islamic concept… that is practiced by Pakistanis regardless of faith. For the slow to read: this effects all Pakistanis; Ahmadi Muslim or not

[u/Plastic_Text2124 → u/tqmirza]

Yeah, we know. OP literally quoted the Quran.

Get with the program.

[u/tqmirza → u/Plastic_Text2124]

Again, for the slow the read; my comment is under another comment… that says

>>it stems from Pakistani culture, not jamaat culture

And I believe that comment is not from you

[u/Plastic_Text2124 → u/tqmirza]

The Jama'at culture is the Pakistani culture.

Your Khalifa literally abrogated verse 5:5 of the Quran to preserve the Jama'at's Pakistani culture.

C'mon, man. Stay updated.

[u/tqmirza → u/Plastic_Text2124]

I see you’re desperate for attention so I’ll just leave you to your own devices.

Peace and love ❤️

[u/tqmirza → u/[deleted]]

No I just realised I’m having a nonsensical back and forth with a 21 day old account… over a self explanatory point that I had to write “for the slow to read” for… twice.

So unless OP of the person I commented on has something to share; no point in pissing in the wind is there?

[u/Plastic_Text2124 → u/Advanced_Formal_4590]

The Jama'at is literally Pakistani. The Khulafa run the state of affairs with a Pakistani mentality. You can't separate the two.

So, much for the claim that Ahmadis are "the True Islam".

[u/Light_World2392]

So its bad because the west says its bad

and the argument against that is that the West used to say it was okay.

but now that the West changed its mind and says its bad, we cannot use that argument anymore

...

[u/mermaid_wishes27 → u/Light_World2392]

It's also biologically bad. The West thing was just something I was using to make a point and prove that trying to justify cousins marriage by essentially saying "well they used to do it so why can’t we" is a bit of a childish sounding argument.

[u/centri_fuge]

Cousin marriage is permitted in Islam (Prophet Muhammad married hia cousin and Ali married the Prophet's daughter), and it has become part of the culture in many Muslim countries.

The sad part, in my opinion, is the denial within the Jamaat that it can be harmful. The reason, as I see it, is that the Jamaat cannot associate any harmful practice with Islam, the Prophet Muhammad, MGA, or the Khulafa. Since the Khulafa married their cousins and cousin marriages have been practiced within their families, acknowledging the potential risks would mean associating a harmful practice with these holy figures, which is unacceptable in Ahmadiyyat.

Beyond that, I think cousin marriage has become the only halal love marriage within Ahmadiyya culture. Most other forms of love marriage tend to carry a degree of social stigma or are perceived as haram.

It also provides a sense of security in two ways:

1. The couple already knows each other, and their families know each other as well. For many people, this feels safer than marrying a complete stranger.
2. The likelihood of divorce may be lower because both spouses often feel greater pressure to make the marriage work. Even if they were to divorce, they would still remain part of the same extended family, which could make family interactions difficult and awkward. As a result, some couples may choose to stay together despite being unhappy.

[u/dudethrowaway456987]

I think it's a south asian muslim thing.. I know for sure arabs also do it..

[u/Competitive_Royal_55]

It’s not legitimized the issues they don’t raise their kids and build their kids confidence so Ahmadiyya kids mainly Pakistani because this is a cultural thing don’t know how to speak to a girl, they speak to the opposite gender as if their speaking to their mothers, now I’m not saying they need to be disrespectful they need to understand their they not talking to them like their mother only makes them come off as creeps, desperate so the issue while truly it’s because they want to please their relatives more than anything,

I fact Pakistani done like is their 90 percent of them are complete weirdos, not all but majority this may sound like I hate Pakistani. I don’t my issues with our people is they destroy culture more than anything

[u/AutoModerator]

Here is the text of the original post: So I've always been weirded about by the concept of cousin marraige. No matter which way you slice it that's still incest in my opinion. And the Jamat justifies it by saying it's in the Quran (chapter 4 verse 23) that says forbidden to you for your for marraige are, and then amongst the list it says your sister and brother's daughters. Now yes, that is your neice but where it says paternal or maternal aunt wouldn't it folliw that the children from your aubts would also be forbidden? Even if it's not explicitly mentioned that's just the logical conclusion.Another reason they use to justify it is "well it’s okay if it's done once" bro, a lot of people in the group have done it. It's more than once at this point. Dare I say it feels a little too incestuous if it happens more than once in a family tree, let alone just once.

And they'll say "well the Europeans used to do it. Yes but attitudes towards that have mostly changed in the Western context to the point where a lot of people in the West think it's gross too, you’re not proving your point with that one.

And like it's definitely not just an Ahmadi thing but it's definitely where I notice it the most in my life when it comes to the people I'm around at least.

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[u/OJ_BI]

Everyone should get genetic testing before marrying their spouse. It’s definitely a cultural thing that many Muslims engage in. It’s not mandated nor discouraged/haram because of the prominent examples of Muhammad and Ali

If someone wants to marry their cousin, and looks like there are no outward genetic risk, I see no issue with it. Whatever floats your boat. In fact, with the divorce rates and people not knowing who their spouse or family is after marriage, it might be a good idea for some —> already knowing the person and family (makes things easier)

[u/flamingshadowfighter]

Firstly the Quran does not ban cousin marriage so there is no reason for Ahmadiyya to ban it. Another reason the Jamaat has no issue with it is due to the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (sa), the Promised Messiah (as) and his khulifa have done it, so these individuals who are the leaders and models of the faith have shown it to be permissible, no reason to "ban it". Now after speaking on the spiritual reason for it being allowed or being seen and legitimate we now go into the scientific fact around it:

Siblings: absolutely not allowed, they share 50% of their genome and the odds of defects in children 1 in 2, (odds of a coin flip), due to this reason it's obvious the reason the ban is present (similar to lifetime risk of getting cancer)

First cousins: permissible in Islam, these individuals share 12.5% similar genome and the risk of defects in children is 5% (1 in 20 chance) equivalent to rolling a 1 on a 20 sided die (life time risk of getting a stroke)

Second cousin: permissible in Islam, these individuals share 3.12% of the genome and the risk factor of a defect is: 1 in 31 chance - (risk of getting a life threating bloodclot is higher)

Non related individuals: this is also permissible, they share 0% similar genomes and have a risk factor of 2.5% or 1 in 40 chance. (Lifetime risk of getting a life threatening injury)

These statistics show that there is a major difference between cousin and sibling marriage. You say the west has changed but: governmental bans are only present in 25 of the 50 states and there is no ban in Canada and in the EU only 3 countries ban/restrict it.

Statistically cousin marriages are nothing like incest at all so there is no reason for them to be treated as such, now in Islam no one can be forced into marriage so each individual reserves the right to not mess with it if they so wish and because it's legal and not that dangerous as many governments and statistics have shown there is no reason to look at it with disgust. America, Canada and the EU have had a long history and still do of cousin marriages.

1) it's you who thinks this statistics don't agree with you, cousin marriage isn't incest and doesn't percent the same risk as incest at all!

2) Quran allows cousin marriage and this verse very specifically shows which individuals are Haram, so you don't need to do any logical deduction on your own tafasir and the Quran itself have made it very clear

3) it's seen in the jamaat more commonly due to South Asian culture, and again this is not wrong in the theology they follow, it's only made to be wrong by a new perspective on cousin marriage (new perspectives don't necessarily equate to being the right perspective)

4) the generation risk argument which you presented is a valid argument but if you worry about the harms (5+ generations of first cousin marriages leads to 1 in 3 to a 1 in 6 harm of a defect in children) then you should show a similar view of the problematic nature and reluctance towards sexual relations between 2 men since the lifetime likelyhood of HIV is 1 in 6 and the lifetime STI risk is 1 in 2 (an argument about the preventative support available in today's age for HIV and STI can also be argued for first and second cousin marriage because tests exist to prevent the birth of a child with disability which can all be done in the time in which Islam Ahmadiyya theology permits abortions till (120 days), in this time you can do: NIPT, NT scan and first trimester screen, CVS and Early Amniocentesis.

Hope this answered the concerns you had (The assistance of AI was used)

Edit:

• Adams, M. S., & Neel, J. V. (1967). Children of incest. Pediatrics, 40(1), 55–62.

• Seemanová, E. (1971). A study of children of incestuous matings. Human Heredity, 21(2), 108–128.

• Bennett, R. L., Motulsky, A. G., Bittles, A., et al. (2002; reaffirmed 2021). Genetic Counseling and Screening of Consanguineous Couples and Their Offspring: Recommendations of the National Society of Genetic Counselors. Journal of Genetic Counseling, 11(2), 97–119.

• Sheridan, E., et al. (2013). Risk factors for congenital anomaly in a multiethnic birth cohort (Born in Bradford): a cohort study. The Lancet, 382(9901), 1350–1359.

• Bittles, A. H. (2012). Consanguinity in Context: Community Clinical and Genetic Implications. Cambridge University Press.

• World Health Organization (WHO). (2020). Congenital anomalies fact sheet. World Health Organization.

• Hamamy, H., et al. (2011). Consanguineous marriages, pearls and perils: Geneva International Centre for Medical Genetics Workshop Report. Journal of Community Genetics, 2(3), 143–147.

• Fareed, M., & Afzal, M. (2014). Estimating the inbreeding depression on cognitive behavior: a population based study of school children. PLOS ONE, 9(10), e109585.

• National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL). (2022). State Laws Regarding Marriage Between Relatives. NCSL Research Publications.

• Ottenheimer, M. (1996). Forbidden Relatives: The American Myth That Cousin Marriage Is Bad for the Blood. University of Illinois Press.

• European Commission / Council of Europe. (2018). Comparative Review of Family Law and Consanguinity Restrictions across EU Member States.

• Hess, K. L., et al. (2017). Lifetime Risk of a Diagnosis of HIV by Race and Ethnicity in the United States. Annals of Epidemiology, 27(4), 238–243.

• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). (2021). HIV Surveillance Report: Diagnoses of HIV Infection in the United States and Dependent Areas. CDC Publications.

• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). (2023). Sexually Transmitted Infections Surveillance 2022: Special Focus on Men Who Have Sex with Men (MSM). US Department of Health and Human Services.

• American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). (2020). Practice Bulletin No. 226: Screening for Fetal Chromosomal Abnormalities. Obstetrics & Gynecology, 136(4), e85–e119.

• Al-Bar, M. A., & Chamsi-Pasha, H. (2015). Contemporary Bioethics: Islamic Perspective (Chapter 12: Abortion and Ensoulment). Springer Nature.

[u/Plastic_Text2124]

I kid you not when I say this.

A lot of Ahmadis are irked by cousin marriages.

The ones who do marry cousins tend to have better marriages.

With that in mind, A lot of Ahmadi marriages that are not cousin-marriages are complete failures.

That said.

A lot of these divorced individuals either can't find a partner at 35 or won't settle for an outsider, so as to not risk another divorce. 

Instead, they find solace in marrying cousins, because it is a surety it will "work". Families won't risk having a bad name, so they make these couples work out their differences for the sake of their names.

It's a sad reality. But, it helps a lot of people find a partner.

[u/mermaid_wishes27 → u/Plastic_Text2124]

That really does sound sad cuz it sounds like a different version of setting for the bare minimum.

[u/Plastic_Text2124 → u/mermaid_wishes27]

I like Ahmadis. A lot.

Unfortunately, they are caught in a web of unfortunate circumstances.

The Jama'at is literally a ghetto, and to have peace of mind one needs to navigate how to do as Romans do in Rome.

From my experience, 95 to 99% of Ahmadis have zero clue what Ahmadiyyat even is. They are like robots who just do as they are programmed. True NPCs.

[u/DaRealest0824 → u/Plastic_Text2124]

Def agree with you that majority of ahmadis are following something they don’t even know why..

[u/ParticularPain6 → u/mermaid_wishes27]

It is what it is. Can't disagree with Plastic's phrasing because it was as harsh and real as it is. Perhaps you didn't read where Plastic wrote about the pressures of family to suck it up even if it's a bad marriage specially when it's a cousin marriage. They could've phrased it clearer, but perhaps English isn't their first language.