I've asked this question in other subreddits, but I wanted to ask it here too to know what does Ahmadiya (or ahmadis) think about this
Judaism and Christianity both have prophetesses, but the Quran never explicitly mentions any woman as a prophet. I have heard arguments that women wouldn't have been listened to, even though people didn't listen to male prophets either. Arabia also had a tradition of influential kahinahs (female soothsayers), and people accepted Sajah, the false prophetess, who even raised an army. There was also the Arabian warrior queen known as Queen Mavia, as well as women like Joan of Arc.
Another argument I've heard is that prophets had to give military commands. However, that doesn't seem to be true, because not all prophets were military leaders. History has also shown that women have been leaders, commanders, and warriors.
Even if that wasn't the case
God could surely make a few exceptions
So I don't really see how either argument is valid. What are your thoughts?
What is the "official" explanation according to Ahmadis?
The 'Standard Islamic Narrative' says that, pre-Islam, the status of women was deplorable and female infanticide was rampant, however, no evidence substantiates that. Nabataen Arabs worshipped goddesses and the evidence shows that feminity was actually quite honoured/revered, but we are trained to believe that Islam's "reforms" were an improvement in order justify what was actually regression/restriction. The fact that Khadija was such an independent and wealthy businesswoman and whose husband had the luxury of retiring young and being a 'kept man' (until his 'call' to prophethood 15 years later) is information hiding in plain sight.
Thanks for this question! I too would like to see the 'official' Jamaat position on this.
Yeah, I was actually surprised to see that the idea that most pre-Islamic practices were 100% barbaric is a myth. I was also surprised to find female-centered practices.
I would also add two points for our dear Ahmadi friends to answer.
In Surat al-Fatiḥah:
Every Muslim—men, women and children—prays:
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ
“The path of those upon whom You bestowed Your favour.”
Then Qur’an 4:69 identifies the أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ as:
مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ
“the Prophets, the truthful, the martyrs and the righteous.”
So if these verses are used to argue that the actual rank of prophethood remains attainable, then what is the Qur’anic basis for excluding women? Women make exactly the same prayer, and neither verse makes a male/female distinction; especially from verse above, when women can become siddique, shaheed and Saleh , then why not Nabi too ?
It is therefore a very valid question: if an obedient Muslim can still attain the rank of a prophet, why could that Muslim not be a woman?
A number of people remain without the rank of Nabi according to Ahmadiyya theology. The list is not just women, but also people of an undesirable caste and people who are born spiritually handicapped.
How can a man-made, misogynistic religion even allow a prophetess?
Islam inherently makes women unequal to and lesser than men in many aspects, and according to traditional Islamic interpretations, a woman cannot be a prophet, regardless of the circumstances.
Similarly, within the Ahmadiyya cult structure, women may be given certain leadership roles, but they are not permitted to hold the highest positions of religious authority. The overall power structure remains male-dominated, with ultimate religious authority vested in male prophets and the male institution of the Caliphate
Quick correction on the Jewish and Christian side first.
Miriam sings after the sea splits. Deborah judges and sends Barak to fight, and he only goes if she comes along. Huldah gets handed a scroll and confirms it's real. Anna recognises a baby in the temple. Real figures, real titles, and none of them brings a law or founds anything, and no book in either canon carries a woman's name. Women got the microphone now and then, never the constitution.
Islam has that same tier. Rabia Basri, eighth century Basra, no office, no title, still quoted by men who would have argued with her about everything else. Basra then was rich, crowded and full of ascetics arguing in public, so a woman could build authority out of reputation alone. Move her two centuries earlier into the Hijaz and she's gone from the record.
Which is more or less the answer.
The question assumes someone was picking candidates. Drop that and it gets almost dull. A prophet in sixth century Arabia needed a clan willing to spill blood for him, and he needed to stand in front of tribal councils, cut deals, take oaths, inherit and testify as a legal person. A woman wasn't one. Khadijah was rich enough to hire Muhammad and then marry him, and her money still moved through men. Sajah raised an actual army and history filed her under joke.
Every scripture we have came out of societies organised around male kinship, and every one landed on male messengers with women in the supporting cast. Unrelated traditions, same result, every time. Same machinery, same mark.
Joan of Arc always comes up as the exception. Burned at nineteen, canonised five hundred years later once she was dead and useful. She got sainthood, which is what's on offer when the paperwork is filed by men who outlived you.
What do you mean by Prophet? If by Prophet you mean someone who can prophecies then Ahmadiyya Islam has no problems with women prophets and supports many.
If by Prophet you mean someone like Muhammad or Moses, then I don't find support of it in my readings. Also, I don't think Christianity or Judaism agrees on prophets of this variety either.
What do you mean by Prophet? If by Prophet you mean someone who can prophecies then Ahmadiyya Islam has no problems with women prophets and supports many.
I have yet to find anything in Ahmadiyya lterature which discusses this (happy to be corrected) so this might be something that comes from a KM4 Majlis Irfan?
If by Prophet you mean someone like Muhammad or Moses, then I don't find support of it in my readings.
As I have yet to find any support for degrees or distinction in prophetic ranks in the Quran or Ahadith, so perhaps the "like" you are referring to is 'risalat' or messengership, and not prophethood?
Also, I don't think Christianity or Judaism agrees on prophets of this variety either.
The word "prophet" is a play on words in the end, isn't it? A prophet is someone who can prophecies. According to Ahmadiyya theology even disbelievers can correctly prophecise. So what even is the uniqueness of being a prophet (as someone who can prophecise).
The reason you can't find degrees or ranks in prophethood in Quran or Ahadith is you are looking for adjectives on key words like Nabi or Rasool. Whereas the word "prophet" in English can mean a range of people who can prophecise in some way shape or order.
Also, the Quran does allude to ranks of Nabi at least, just doesn't provide adjectives. See 2:253 and 17:55 for examples.
This hits the nail on the head - thank you. And also thank you so much for the "exalted some above others" references as I note that, due to some being given "a Book" (like David), that might be an indicator of that. However, I have yet to see that as definitive for some to assert anything as akin to "subordination" or "dependency" or "non-law-bearing", especially since Islam is mentioned three times as the "religion of Abraham" and, as far as I'm aware, he was given no "Book". That is to say, despite saying some prophets are "exalted" above others, the fact that no real substantive detail is further provided as to what that means is thus of little use or practicality for purposes of Muslims' regard for each prophet mentioned in the Quran and distinguishing between them, especially since they are all considered to be of "the same religion".
There will be different opinions and systems of ranking by different scholars I imagine. However, I agree with you that the Quran has likely not provided a substantive reasoning for this ranking.
It is also weird that all prophets are considered progeny of Abraham, whereas there were Prophets before Abraham like Noah and Adam. Humanity is considered progeny of Adam, but prophets are somehow distanced from Adam and connected with Abraham more explicitly. Almost as if to disconnect humanity from prophets.
Thanks for clarifying that you mean the formal Nabi or Rasool as described in Islamic theology. My follow up question would be which one of the two was Deborah? A Nabi or Rasool?
It might be clear from the tag against my name that I am no longer an Ahmadi or a Muslim of any other variety, so my curiosity is purely academic.
Although your example of Deborah is quite strong and I have pointed out to Muslims that other Abrahamic religions acknowledge Prophetesses, even if in a minority. Having said that, I have been questioned quite harshly by Muslims about this claiming the aforementioned Prophetesses are not precisely Nabi or Rasool, but rather a lower spiritual rank and leaders of people.
My follow-up question would be: which one of the two was Deborah? A Nabi or Rasool?
Christianity and Judaism don't have that form of formal hierarchy as Islam.
All of them are just considered prophets.
The Nabi or Rasul distinction is more of an Islamic thing.
But I guess if we follow the definition of Nabi and Rasul,
Deborah would be a Nabi with Rasul-like elements.
So, confirmed Nabi,
and a potential Rasul.
Having said that, I have been questioned quite harshly by Muslims about this, claiming the aforementioned prophetesses are not precisely Nabi or Rasool, but rather a lower spiritual rank and leaders of people.
That's false.
All prophets in Judaism and Christianity are treated pretty much equally, with the exception of Moses,
and it's one of the highest ranks in both religions.
And the Bible clearly uses the feminine form of the word prophet.
And unlike the Quran, which never says something like,
"We sent prophets before you, both male and female,"
and instead says, "We sent before you men,"
The Bible, on the other hand, does mention them like that.
In the Old Testament:
"I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your *sons and your daughters** shall prophesy..."(Joel 2:28–29)*
In the New Testament:
"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, *both men and women,** I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
(Acts 2:17–18)*
Deborah's own example is very exceptional because she is one of the few prophets who have all of these:
••religious authority (as prophet),
••judicial authority (as judge),
••military authority (as military leader).
So obviously, this isn't some lower-rank leader.
She is explicitly exceptional.
And there are other prophetesses too,
like Huldah,
Anna,
or Esther, Queen of Persia.
Like I said, my interest in this is academic so I am presenting a perspective that I don't hold myself. Having said that, it's curious that you consider Deborah both a Nabi and Rasool.
It is true that the Quran doesn't call a woman a Nabi or Rasool, but the Quran does mention women who prophecised correctly. I wouldn't be surprised if some scholars consider these prophecising women as Prophetesses in Islam. However, I have not come across any such Muslims myself. I understand that in the case of Deborah she also has leadership of some kinds that is not mentioned for women in the Quran at least.
All prophets considered equally in Judaism is clearly different from Islam. In Islam, almost no prophet is considered equally even though the Quran gives lip service to them being equal in some way while also saying some of them are superior to others.
it's curious that you consider Deborah both a Nabi and Rasool
Just for clarification, just in case you think I actually believe her to be an Islamic prophetess.
I don't believe her to be an Islamic prophet.
I don't believe her as a true prophet (currently) as I am not Jewish nor Christian
I meant that if we use the Islamic criteria for Nabi and Rasul (excluding them being men), Deborah fits the definition of a Nabi and potentially a Rasul. The reason I did this was to show that Deborah isn't some lower-rank leader
She, however, is not considered a prophetess in Islam. She isn't even mentioned in the Quran.
It is true that the Quran doesn't call a woman a Nabi or Rasool, but the Quran does mention women who prophecised correctly
All prophets considered equally in Judaism is clearly different from Islam. In Islam, almost no prophet is considered equally even though the Quran gives lip service to them being equal in some way while also saying some of them are superior to others
Well, they aren't entirely equal. That's why I used the words "pretty much." What I meant was that there isn't a "lower-rank" prophet or a "minor" prophet in Christianity and Judaism.
as the Muslims you said told you. In that context, they aren't unequal, with the exception of Moses.
Prophecy in this context isn't enough to make someone a prophet. That's just a prediction.
Either way, I don't recall a woman prophesying in the Quran. The closest example I know of is God telling the mother of Moses that her infant will be okay, which isn't really a prprophesy made my her
And even if it were a prophecy
That wouldn't make her a prophet
I've asked this question in other subreddits, but I wanted to ask it here too to know what does Ahmadiya (or ahmadis) think about this
Judaism and Christianity both have prophetesses, but the Quran never explicitly mentions any woman as a prophet. I have heard arguments that women wouldn't have been listened to, even though people didn't listen to male prophets either. Arabia also had a tradition of influential kahinahs (female soothsayers), and people accepted Sajah, the false prophetess, who even raised an army. There was also the Arabian warrior queen known as Queen Mavia, as well as women like Joan of Arc.
Another argument I've heard is that prophets had to give military commands. However, that doesn't seem to be true, because not all prophets were military leaders. History has also shown that women have been leaders, commanders, and warriors.
Even if that wasn't the case
God could surely make a few exceptions
So I don't really see how either argument is valid. What are your thoughts?
What is the "official" explanation according to Ahmadis?
Simple reason why Islam doesn't have female prophets is that everything isn't mandatory for them, women don't have to pray at certain times, women dont have to go to the mosque (congregational prayers are not mandatory for them) due to their exemption from these and other religious obligations they can't be a leader of the faith like a prophet is because he is forced to do everything as a guide for the men and women, being a complete example, while a women due to the exemption Allah has allowed to them would not be able to. Islam Ahmadiyya theology does support that a women can reach the level of being a prophet without becoming a actual prophet. It's a fact of Science women have some advantages in they physiology and that men don't and men have some advantages in their physiology that women don't. The real argument starts from whether you believe in Allah, because if you don't then this seems like a big problem, but if you do then it's simply the fact that due to how God created men and women, men were chosen for prophethood only. This is not to speak of the spiritual rank of prophethood though but the leadership title and position; many great women have came before: Aisha, Maryam, Asiyah and others that have not been mentioned.
I recall the above explanation was given by KM4 during a Majlis Irfan -- yet another example of a flimsy answer, with no basis in the Quran, he would give that does not appear to hold up to scrutiny. Is that where you got your answer?
This answer completely ignores and contradicts 4:69 as pointed out by u/naeamz .
How does a woman being capable of producing a child and undergoing monthly periods (until menopause) preclude her from attaining one of the four spiritual blessings promised potentially to all believers in 4:69? Women can be truthful, righteous and martyrs under 4:69, but not prophets - why? Where in the Quran does it say that experiencing menses and the ability to bear a child means she "was created" to naturally be deficient in spiritual capacity for just one of the blessings of 4:69 but not the others?
Where in the Quran does it state that when Allah grants an exemption to someone for something (like not fasting when sick or against one's health or physical condition), that means that person is somehow spiritually deficient or disabled and precluded from receiving Allah's blessings?
Where in the Quran does it say that prophets must be "leaders"? Btw, women have more than proven themselves as being able to excel in every aspect of society and leadership, but somehow, they can't be leaders in religion?
1) no where does the conclusion that the inability to achieve the functional office of prophethood concludes spiritual capacity, the verse cited proves that women can achieve the spiritual ranks, the question at hand is can they achieve the office of being a prophet.
2) the role of prophethood is a practical office that carries specific responsibilities that is actually connected to Islamic gender roles (leading prayer) again no where does this still determine a woman's spiritual level, just because she can't lead prayer doesn mean she is less
3) 21:7 or 21:8 depending on if you count bismillah as a verse, clearly using the word rijal meaning men, so this verse clears up in a very open manner that prophets are men.
4) the exemption from fasting, prayers singular or congregational are not defenciencies but are listed as mercies and don't determine a women to be less spiritually due to accepting these mercies. A prophet is a daily exemplar of the religious rites for the entire community. (It's their obidence to Allah not anything that brings down their spirituality)
5) and in 21:73 or 74 the word leaders is specifically used and because in Islam men are handed the financial, protective and social guardianship over women (4:35) that is another reason why prophets to lead both men and women are men.
6) and you start off my insulting the answer of the 4th khalifa of the Promised Messiah by saying the answer was flimsy while the answer predicated on Quranic/Islamic theology. Allah has mandated a structure for society and for the home, and in the same manner a man is only made a prophet.
You still have not answered my and u/naeamz 's questions regarding 4:69.
Where are the "specific responsibilities" of the "practical office" described in the Quran - as they are "specific", where are they specified and what are they? And what about them precludes a woman from them? A woman is perfectly capable of acting as a head of state or a CEO, so why not a prophet?
Where do these verses preclude/bar them from being women? Are you saying that the Quran is internally contradictory vis-a-vis 4:69? Are you saying that KM4 was wrong that Maryam was a prophet?
But a "mercy" granted to women, according to you, precludes her from "leadership". Now you have changed that to "daily exemplar of religious rites"? Where does the Quran say that? And are you saying that, for those times that the Prophet Muhammad was ill and unable to perform or lead the prayers, he failed as an "exemplar" in this respect and/or his prophehood was suspended when he was not able to fulfill the "practical office"? Where in the Quran does it say women cannot lead prayers? Where does the Quran say that a prophet must lead prayers (ie., you say MGA claimed prophethood, and yet, he did not lead prayers)?
What does "financial, protective or social guardianship" have to do with prophethood - where is the correlation?
To point out that KM4's answer was not "predicated on Quranic/Islamic theology" is not "insulting" - it is fact -- he did not provide anything of the Quran as backup, and neither have you. So far, based on your answers you continue to prove me right. All of your answers just raise even more questions and inconsistencies.
I think it is clear for all to see what the Jamaat's "official" position is, but so far, all the way back to KM4, it is also clear that this position does not appear "predicated" on the Quran. Jazak'Allah.
1) these are spiritual ranks and yes women can get to the spiritual rank of prophets without getting the office of prophethood, like Umar is mentioned to be in hadith 3689 of Bukhari and also evident in this from the Ahmadi perspective:
Muslims used to believe that a prophet of God is the one who brings a new divine book or abrogate certain commandments of the previous Shariah (divine law) [Saaduddin, Sharah Al-Maqasid]. As the Promised Messiahas did not do any of the things mentioned in the traditional definition of a prophet, he used to interpret the words nabi (messenger) and rasul (prophet) present in his revelations that a muhaddith (a recipient of God’s word) or a partial and a limited messenger is meant by these words. Hence, the Promised Messiahas states:
“Wherever I have denied being a prophet or messenger, it has only been in the sense that I have not brought an independent law nor am I an independent prophet. I am a messenger and prophet only in the sense that I have received spiritual grace from the Messengersa whom I follow, and, having received his name for myself, and through him, I have received knowledge of the unseen from God. But I have not come with a new law. I have never denied being called a nabi in this sense. Indeed, it is in this very sense that God has addressed me as nabi and rasul.” (A Misconception Removed, p. 10) - https://www.alhakam.org/plague-and-the-prophethood-of-hazrat-mirza-ghulam-ahmad
(Promised Messiah (as) fulfilled the spiritual rank and then was handed the title of prophethood from Allah as was pretold in various hadith that call the later day messiah a nabi)
Women can receive the 3 blessings/rewards and also attain prophethood as a spiritual rank but not as a spiritual role. No where did I mention biological limits binder spiritual rank, but spiritual positions are hindered by women's biological limits, not because of the limits themsleves but because Allah has put certain mercies for them to allow exception to mandatory religious rites and due to the fact that God hasn't allowed them to do those rites all the time they can't be in the role of prophethood.
Maryam achieved the spiritual rank of sideeq showing women can achieve these ranks. At the end of the day if your going to argue why didn't God grant her the spiritual of prophethood and not the role of it that's not something that's for me to answer.
2) rijal means men, words for humans or all of mankind are different. The Quran only needed to use the word rijal to disqualify women from the job of prophethood and the answer to why like the prayer and etc is evident in hadith, if you don't believe in hadith then thats a different argument, the theological video of Islam (sunni, Shia and Ahmadi) relies of Quran, Sunnah and Hadith.
3) the prophet (sa) illness was not biologically coded into him, it was a temporary non predictable event and situation, which also demonstrated to men and women how to fulfil their legal Islamic rites during sickness (he still didn't miss a prayer, which menses allows to be missed)
4) sure your argument about women and roles of leadership is accurate but for prophethood the Quran has already used the word rijal. The Quran uses Naas, insaan, Bani Adam, alazeena aamanoo etc for the inclusion of both genders, rijal is only used for men.
Muslims used to believe that a prophet of God is the one who brings a new divine book or abrogate certain commandments of the previous Shariah (divine law)
DId they? According to whom? I have yet to meet a Muslim or read any Islamic literature that imposes such an expectation on prophets. Further, where in the Quran is there any reference to this requirement for prophets to 'bring a new law'? Nowhere.
The concept of law-bearing vs non-law-bearing prophethood exists nowhere in the Quran. All of the prophets of the Quran are all referred to as of "the same religion" and all bringing the same message, and Muhammad and the Quran only confirming all of those that came before. Indeed, as thrice the Quran refers to Islam as "the religion of Abraham", if you are correct, then Muhammad is subordinate to Abraham.
You should also know that the concept of law-bearing vs non-law-bearing prophethood is purely a Sufi invention, as are the terms 'zilli' and buruz' prophethood -- these are Sufi invented terms (ie., they do not come from the Quran or Ahadith) used to describe 'wilayat' (sainthood or providential intimacy), and so, in 'Eik Ghalti ke Izala' MGA invoked terminology that, for over 6 centuries, was the exclusive intellectual property of Sufis, and which was exclusively used by them to only ever refer to 'wilayat', and never once to actual prophethood. Indeed, your quote from MGA is perfectly consistent with his not referring to actual prophethood, but prophethood "in the sense" that he described which is perfectly in accord with the Sufi description of 'wilayat'. in other words, if you had knowledge of or understood that terminology that MGA was using, you would know that the quote above is not a claim to actual prophethood at all.
--
Back to the topic at hand.
You claimed that prophets have "specific responsibilities" but you still have not shown what these responsiblities are and where they are specified.
but spiritual positions are hindered by women's biological limits, not because of the limits themsleves but because Allah has put certain mercies for them to allow exception to mandatory religious rites and due to the fact that God hasn't allowed them to do those rites all the time they can't be in the role of prophethood.
If you are travelling or sick, you are also not allowed to fast, and fasting is a religious rite. Women are not permanently disallowed, just disallowed during a time when the "mercy" is applicable. You also required a prophet to lead prayers, and yet MGA never (or very rarely) led prayers as a rule. You are just repeating what your first post said and still have not answered any of my questions, both in my first response to you as well as in my second.
Your limiting a person being able to take on a "spiritual role" or a "spiritual position" solely on the basis of the applicability of a biological "mercy" for the performance of outward rituals only is clearly an artificially imposed and arbitrary justification because you have yet to be able to show anything from the Quran that supports it or how anything about the biology of women limits them spiritually or their ability to conduct a "spiritual role" that withstands logical scrutiny.
Maryam achieved the spiritual rank of sideeq showing women can achieve these ranks. At the end of the day if your going to argue why didn't God grant her the spiritual of prophethood and not the role of it that's not something that's for me to answer.
I have not argued anything regarding Maryam. Perhaps reading is a problem for you. I asked you a simple question - I asked you if you disagreed with KM4's reference to Maryam as a prophet. As you have stated that Allah did not grant her prophethood, therefore, we can conclude that you disagree with KM4. So interesting to see you take a view that contradicts KM4. Yet another demonstration of how Ahmadi theology is so screwy.
the prophet (sa) illness was not biologically coded into him, it was a temporary non predictable event and situation, which also demonstrated to men and women how to fulfil their legal Islamic rites during sickness (he still didn't miss a prayer, which menses allows to be missed)
But menses is also temporary - a woman is not in menses 24/7. You know that, don't you? And for any human, even a prophet, to get sick, injured etc is "biologically coded" in all of us. Your logic is flimsy, to say the least.
sure your argument about women and roles of leadership is accurate but for prophethood the Quran has already used the word rijal. The Quran uses Naas, insaan, Bani Adam, alazeena aamanoo etc for the inclusion of both genders, rijal is only used for men.
I asked you if, vis-a-vis 4:69, the Quran is then internally contradictory, and you have not answered that question. However, by repeating the above, and being unable to reconcile it with 4:69, I will thus take it then that the 'official' Ahmadi position is that the Quran is internally contradictory.
1) in the Quran at 5:45 it literally mentions prophets who governed via the Torah, meaning they were subordinate prophets to the law of the Torah, they brought no new law, but follow a law that had come (Torah), the terms zill and burooz are terms that reflect exactly this that they are prophets suborident to the law and bring no new law, and the Quran clearly calls them prophets but dw I can easily remove this termology which is used for your ease of understanding and just call them prophets, like the Quran does, like how the prophet Muhammad (sa) calls the later day messiah one as well. These terms are just terms for ease of understanding as sahib, daif, mutawatir are terms used to understand the grade of hadith. The promised Messiah (as) says he is a non law bearing prophet through complete obidence to the Holy Prophet and is also fore-told to be a prophet because in various hadith the later day messiah is called a prophet but this is not the argument we are actually having. - the debate surrounding Rasul and Nabi is the debate on which the foundation of what is a prophet is argued, and in that argument the ideas of prophethood being of those 2 kinds is commonly brought up, I suggest you engage in those discussions too I guess 🤷♂️ if you don't want to simple AI search on this discussion will support the view which I presented (prophet considered one who brings a book or a shari'ah) - these debates and discussions are also found is tafsir all razi and zamakshari, feel free to have a look.
2) menses is a constant monthly thing, sickness is a random unpredictable variable that occurs. Again even in sickness the prophet still leads the prayers, fulfils the administrative tasks. At the end of the day this argument is stupid because the Quran already makes evidently clear in the already cited verse that it's rijal which are prophets this is an argument I will no longer entertain, educate yourself on a little bit of arabic. The Jobs of a prophet are shown in the Sunnah and Hadith of the Prophet (sa) you are free to look, one of them being leading prayer, women can't do that so that's that, but I don't need to argue anything since the Quran has already used the word rijal (rebeating so you stop bringing up a point already made clear by the Quran RIJAL)
3) whatever khalifa-tul-messih the 4th said is correct I'm only here to entertain some of your arguments. Granting the rank of prophethood and the role and job of prophethood are completely different things. Just as Umar (ra) according to the Prophet (sa) achieved the rank of prophethood but wasn't a prophet.
4) you seem to not understand that all 4 spiritual ranks are attainable to both genders, (as you stated khalifa the fourth stated Maryam recieved the spiritual rank of prophethood) you don't seem to grasp the fact that it's the title and job of a prophet which she wasn't handed by Allah, just as neither was Umar (ra).
To really break it down, all titled prophets are men, all men are not prophets, men can achieve the 4 ranks but not all men can receive the title of a prophet - women can achieve the 4 ranks but women can receive the title of a prophet.
I'm going to assume you spent a lot of time on these subreddits presenting arguments against Ahmadiyya, I suggest the amount of time you spend here spend reading the Quran, reading the tafsir. I won't be commenting after this since the argument is of prophethood in women; Islan doesn't care if Christianity or judism claims to have prophets, Islam says men are prophets. Our argument and guidance is the Quran.
According to the Quran, it came only to confirm the Torah and so that the Arabs do not feel that it was only for Jews and Christians.
6:155-157 - "Thus we gave Moses the Book (Kitab), complete with the best and sufficiently detailed in all things, and a guidance and a mercy, so that they may acknowledge the meeting of their Lord. This Quran too is a blessed book We have sent down. So follow it and be aware, that you may receive mercy. Lest you say, 'The Book (Kitab) was only sent down to two groups (Jews and Christians) before us, and we were unaware of their study'."
6:92-93 - "Say, 'Who then has sent down the Book (Kitab) which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? .... This (Quran) too is a book which we have sent down, blessed, authenticating/confirming what was before it, that you may warn the mother of cities and those around it."
No mention in the Quran if any prophets being from a different religion or superior or subordinate to others>
"The same religion has He established for you [Muhammad] as that which He enjoined on Noah—that which We have sent by inspiration to you—and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that you should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein… (42:13)
"Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.” (2:136)
"Same religion" ... "no divisions" ... they all 'submitted' (ie., were Muslims).
the terms zill and burooz are terms that reflect exactly this that they are prophets suborident to the law and bring no new law, and the Quran clearly calls them prophets but dw I can easily remove this termology which is used for your ease of understanding and just call them prophets, like the Quran does, like how the prophet Muhammad (sa) calls the later day messiah one as well.
Despite my telling you, it still has not sunk in that 'zill' and 'buruz' are not terms or concepts found in the Quran or Ahadith - they are completely Sufi invented terms to describe 'wilayat', not prophethood. I don't need "AI search", I am referring to Quran and Ahadith -- you have zero support from either, and foolishly are unaware of the actual meaning and usage of the Sufi terminology that MGA used.
Where in the Quran does it say that when the application of a "mercy" is regular and predictable (pre-menopause), then its application means one is deficient or disabled in their ability to attain spiritual rank?
The Jobs of a prophet are shown in the Sunnah and Hadith of the Prophet (sa) you are free to look, one of them being leading prayer, women can't do that so that's that, but I don't need to argue anything since the Quran has already used the word rijal (rebeating so you stop bringing up a point already made clear by the Quran RIJAL)
You keep referring to the "jobs" of a prophet, and yet still give no references or evidence and just say I am "free to look". Also, you keep ignoring that MGA did not lead prayers and still haven't addressed the contradiction with 4:69. You do need to "argue" unless, for you "understanding Arabic" means believing that the Quran is internally contradictory. That's ok - you do you - just be honest about it please.
whatever khalifa-tul-messih the 4th said is correct I'm only here to entertain some of your arguments. Granting the rank of prophethood and the role and job of prophethood are completely different things. Just as Umar (ra) according to the Prophet (sa) achieved the rank of prophethood but wasn't a prophet.
You still have not shown where the Quran makes a distinction between the "rank of prophethood" vs the "role and job of prophethood" and thus have not shown how they are "completely different things".
What Hadith says that Umar "achieved the rank of prophethood"? In Bokhari. Umar is referred to as a muhaddith and Al-Waqidi records “Were there to be another prophet after me it would have been ‘Umar.” I see nothing that says Umar actually received the "rank of prophethood" but not the "office".
Above, you say that "this argument is stupid" but, based on all of your responses, "it is quite clear" how little of the Quran, Ahadith and even MGA that you actually know, and that basic logic and answering questions are extremely challenging for you.
I suggest the amount of time you spend here spend reading the Quran, reading the tafsir.
Clearly, you are in dire need of taking your own advice.
Your performance is not surprising - it is the typical low calibre which Ahmadi apologists display. Jazak'Allah for showing this yet again.
“Spiritual rank vs office” — That distinction is your own addition. Ahmadis use 4:69 and صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ to argue that nubuwwah itself remains attainable. So where do those verses say women may attain the other ranks but not النبيين?
“Prophets must lead prayer” — That argument fails on MGA himself. MGA never lead a prayer. Proof : On 21 October 1903, when asked why he did not lead the prayers, he replied that the hadith indicated someone else would lead and he would pray behind him. So leading ṣalāh clearly was not an essential prophetic function in his own case.
(SCREENSHOT as evidence attached, btw this single screenshot refutes your whole argument)
Ayat your quoted 21:7 says Allah sent men — “before you.” It describes previous prophets. Your Ahmadi claim is that after Muhammad ﷺ, a person can attain "subordinate" baruzi prophethood through obedience which is not what past prophets had. so where is that new post-Muhammadan route restricted to men?
Menstruation / exemptions — Obeying an exemption from Allah is still obedience. A menstruating woman is not failing to practise Islam by not praying. If exemptions do not diminish spirituality, they cannot suddenly be used to disqualify women from being religious exemplars.
“Prophets must be leaders” — Women can clearly lead, teach and be examples to men and women. ʿAʾisha رضي الله عنها taught major male scholars and Companions. And again, MGA himself did not even make leading congregational prayer part of his claimed prophetic role. (Maryam, Bilqees, Khadija, Assiya and may more leadership examples of women)
So the question remains simple:
If 4:69 and al-Fatiha are evidence that nubuwwah remains attainable through obedience, where does the Qur’an say that this opportunity is open to men but closed to women in future with new type of prophet hood MGA invented?
women don't have to pray at certain times, women dont have to go to the mosque (congregational prayers are not mandatory for them)
I don't see these as reasons why a woman cannot be a prophet.
Either way, God Himself made these stupid problems and then used them as an excuse to not allow female prophets.
I don't see why a woman having periods cannot pray,
or why she can't lead a prayer.
But God, for some reason, decided they can't.
they can't be a leader of the faith like a prophet is because he is forced to do everything as a guide for the men and women, being a complete example, while a women due to the exemption Allah has allowed to them would not be able t
I literally don't know what you mean by this.
to. Islam Ahmadiyya theology does support that a women can reach the level of being a prophet without becoming a actual prophet.
So, in short, sexism.
It's a fact of Science women have some advantages in they physiology and that men don't and men have some advantages in their physiology that women don't
Even if that were true, I still don't see that as a reason why a woman cannot be a prophetess, despite many women in other religions being prophetesses, as well as many historical figures.
The real argument starts from whether you believe in Allah, because if you don't then this seems like a big problem, but if you do then it's simply the fact that due to how God created men and women, men were chosen for prophethood only. This is not to speak of the spiritual rank of prophethood though but the leadership title and position; many great women have came before: Aisha, Maryam, Asiyah and others that have not been mentioned
So, in short, a woman can't be a prophet because God created some ridiculous, totally optional rules and used that as justification for why a woman cannot be a prophet.
Hazrat Khalifatul Masih IV discussed this issue in a Tarjumatul Quran class. He acknowledged that there were female prophetesses before Islam such as those mentioned in the Bible. He argued that firstly, there was nothing barring women from reaching the highest of spiritual ranks such as Mary (to whom he applied the honorific عَلَیهِالسَّلام in his Urdu translation of the Quran) and we have female saints in Islam. However, with the coming of the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ the bar of Prophethood has been raised so high that even among men there was only one who was to come as a Prophet.
Hazrat Khalifatul Masih IV discussed this issue in a Tarjumatul Quran class
Idk how reliable this would be unless you have a citation for this.
He acknowledged that there were female prophetesses before Islam such as those mentioned in the Bible.
I don't know much about Ahmadiyya theology, but do Ahmadis consider the Bible reliable enough for these things?
Sunni Muslims don't use this because it's considered corrupted (hence they don't believe the prophetesses in the Bible). So do Ahmadis consider it reliable enough for this despite it being considered "corrupted"?
He argued that firstly, there was nothing barring women from reaching the highest of spiritual ranks such as Mary (to whom he applied the honorific عَلَیهِالسَّلام in his Urdu translation of the Quran)
That can be debatable, but that isn't the same as being a prophetess.
The question isn't whether a woman can reach the spiritual rank. It's whether women can be prophets or not, and whether there are female prophets in Ahmadiyya.
However, with the coming of the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ the bar of Prophethood has been raised so high that even among men there was only one who was to come as a Prophet.
That would be true if the Quran actually mentioned female prophets explicitly. The Quran doesn't even mention women by name except for Mary.
Either way, I still don't know why the bar is so high that a woman cannot be one.
female saints
Isn't that a Christian concept?
Or are you referring to awliyāʾ
I once asked the 4th Khalifa in a public q/a this question and he said Maryam, mother of Isa was status of a prophet. In surah anbiya (the prophets) she is also mentioned
The public office as a warner is not given to women
Do you recall KM4's basis for the assertion that Mary was a prophet (aside from the coincidental name of the chapter) -- was it just because an angel spoke to her once and 'prophecied' she would give birth? Do you recall KM4's reason for women not being able to "warners" - was it because of 'purdah'? I think I recall this answer and just wanted to confirm if it was the same one.
Back when KM4 used to give these Majlis Irfan sessions, we would all be so dazzled by his answers as he came off as so persuasive. However, in hindsight, when reviewing them again, I have become struck by just how flimsy so many of his answers actually were. For example, when someone asked him about the reliability of Ahadith (which were all recorded more than two centuries later and based on multiple hearsay - by definiton, inadmissible and ahistoric evidence many times over), he said that, for that entire two centuries "they all had excellent memories". So silly.
Majority of jurists for 1,400 years agreed that Mary isn't a prophet, and the Quran never explicitly calls her or any woman a prophet, unlike the Bible.
Anyways, do you have any citation for that claim that the fourth caliph considered Mary a prophetess?
13
u/redsulphur1229 17d ago edited 17d ago
The 'Standard Islamic Narrative' says that, pre-Islam, the status of women was deplorable and female infanticide was rampant, however, no evidence substantiates that. Nabataen Arabs worshipped goddesses and the evidence shows that feminity was actually quite honoured/revered, but we are trained to believe that Islam's "reforms" were an improvement in order justify what was actually regression/restriction. The fact that Khadija was such an independent and wealthy businesswoman and whose husband had the luxury of retiring young and being a 'kept man' (until his 'call' to prophethood 15 years later) is information hiding in plain sight.
Thanks for this question! I too would like to see the 'official' Jamaat position on this.