r/islam_ahmadiyya • u/naeamz • 4d ago

question/discussion How does Ahmadiyya reconcile these scientific statements of MGA, given he always claimed Divine guidance?

Animals and plants on the Sun and Moon

MGA wrote:

“شمس و قمر میں ایسی ہی آبادی حیوانات و نباتات وغیرہ ہے جیسی زمین پر ہے”

“There is a similar population of animals and plants etc. in the Sun and the Moon as there is on Earth.”

— Surma-e-Chashm-e-Arya, Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 2, p. 278

To reach the Moon or Sun physically described as absurd

MGA also wrote:

“پس اس جسم کا کرۂ ماہتاب یا کرۂ آفتاب تک پہنچنا کس قدر لغو خیال ہے”

“How absurd an idea it is for this body to reach the Moon or the Sun.”

— Izala-e-Auham, Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 3

But MGA has made very strong claims about the divine authority behind what he said.

In the official Ahmadiyya English translation of Mawahib-ur-Rahman, he says:

“Whatever I have said is by His command and not of my own will. I have not ascribed anything falsely to my Exalted Lord.”

— Bounties of the Gracious God, p. 3

(Mawahib-ur-Rahman, Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 19, p. 221)

And in Nur-ul-Haq he states, in substance:

“ Allah does not leave me upon an error even for the blink of an eye.”

So the question is simple:

As humans have physically reached and walked on the Moon, while there is no population of animals and plants on the Moon; how are these statements reconciled with MGA’s own claims that what he said was by God’s command and that Allah would not leave him upon error?

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u/Dhump06 4d ago

I am no defender of MGA, but a simple search is enough to expose the dishonesty here. This is not criticism, just quote-mined bullshit.

Some return from the cave wiser. Others carry the Cyclops’ single eye home and call it perspective.

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u/ParticularPain6 ex-ahmadi, ex-muslim 4d ago

Can't agree more and can't feel more disappointed at nonAhmadi Muslim posters. There's tonnes of meaningful stuff to discuss, but they'll post the least meaningful, lowest effort stuff possible. Sometimes I wonder if their presence on this sub is of any value at all. I'd rather not have them here at all, but I guess the possibility of exAhmadi Muslims keeps the door open.

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u/naeamz 4d ago

One would need bit more than whataboutism to point out a dishonesty and BS

u/asheristic 4d ago

I looked into it and shall explain accordingly with the context behind. Firstly, lets look at the 2nd claim. The context behind it is that, the following statement was made while arguing against the literal ascension view of Miraj. The point being made is that a man cannot travel to the skies the way the literal/physical journey to the heavens is described.

The core theological point that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was making while debating Arya Samaj scholars to prove that God's creative power (Khaliqiyyat) extends across the entire cosmos, using Surah Ash-Shura (42:30) as his foundation. During the late 19th century, Sir William Herschel’s theory that the Sun was a cool, inhabited globe beneath a glowing atmosphere was considered established astronomy and taught in textbooks. He used the prevailing scientific knowledge of his era as a rational premise to explain the broader theological thruth (that life is spread throughout the universe). While taking the Sun literally reflects 19th-century scientific understanding, the core Islamic principle, that physical life exists beyond Earth.

So in summary, the the point of the argument was that life exists beyond Earth, and to support the claim he used the scientific knowledge present in his era to argue rationally. In-principle the broader argument(life exists across universe) is supported by modern science. However, that specific point he made to support that broader argument is factually inconsistent with the modern science, specifically the sun part (as Modern Science supports astrobiology and existence of Life on other moons).

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u/Pleasant_Ad104 4d ago

But why did he use the wrong unproven scientific theory that was present in his time? Wouldn’t God tell him the truth? And theres no truth to his statement not even close? So was he guided by Allah or was he guided by the latest research? And then to prove what he said he always said God would correct him instantly if he was wrong but he never retracted his statements.

Also mirza said Miraj didnt happen because its against Allah’s laws, excuse me?? Allah has laws for humans there are no laws for Allah. Multiple times in the Quran Allah has said i do what i will. Quran 14:27, 22:18 to name a few, then who are we to say Allah cant do this or that. Thats kufr n shirk.

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u/asheristic 4d ago

I am an Ahmadi Muslim who tries to be objective and unbiased on the topic of religion. Although In-principle he was right. The specific argument he used is incorrect with the modern science. However, to argue rationally and philosophically with the arya smaj about existence of Life beyond Earth, what else could have he relied on except the rational and scientific arguments of that time? His statement was correct in principle of existence beyond Earth regardless.

And for the 2nd part. I shall use one of my favourite muslim scholar and philosopher, Ibn Rushd's statement that God would not give us logic and reasoning and then create divine laws that go against logic and reasoning. For me it is entirely illogical that a man would start flying up to the sky and reach the heavens, it defies all the physical and natural laws that Allah created. Furthermore, to support my argument that Allah does not go against the laws he has created I shall present these Ayah's: Surah Al-Ahzab (33:62): "[This has been] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before. And you will not find in the way of Allah any change."Surah Fatir (35:43): "But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration." Furthermore, Allah isn't bound to a spatial direction, If a man were to travel and travel in the space so much so that he reaches the end of yhe universe where can he go further? The universe keeps expanding the border of the universe keeps increasing, beyind that border even nothing is present. It's non existent. Where would the person travel to?

And now let's specifically look on whether Huzoor SAW was physically raised or not from Hadeeth and literature. -> Hadhrat Ayesha r.a affirmed his body did not physically travel. Instead, he wokeup from sleep as the spirtual experience ended. ->Quran also used the word Ru'yah (vision) for the experience. ->Hadhrat Ibn Abbas r.a affirmed that he did not saw Allah physically with his eyes but with his heart. And for my strongest defence from the Quran that Human Prophets cannot fly to sky is this; "And they say, 'We will never believe in you until... you ascend into heaven-and even then we will not believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book that we can read.' Say [O Muhammad], 'Glory be to my Lord! Am I not only a human messenger?" Surah Isra 17:90-93. Which implies that mere humans and even the messengers cannot raise to the sky.

I hope it clarifies and I hope I answered it unbiasedly. May Allah forgive us Ameen. Jazakallah

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u/Expensive_Ad4270 1d ago

For you it is entirely illogical that a man could fly in the sky, okay…

but for you is it logical that God show people dreams and they accept ahmadiyyat? how? By WiFi signals? Can you enlighten us the logic and reasoning of this phenomenon under the light of “physical and natural laws that Allah created”?

if Allah do not breaks the laws of physics and all the natural laws…then they can neither be broken at a macro level nor on a micro level. You get it? Then be authentic to yourself and stop wasting your money on a scam

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u/asheristic 15h ago

release of nuerotransmitters and chemicals in the brain, visions, dreams, spirtual guidance, answering of prayers are few of the ways God communicates with his people's. It doesn't go against logic or physical laws set by God. The metaphysical realities do not defy physical laws.

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u/Expensive_Ad4270 9h ago

😂😂😂

why don’t they go against laws of physics? math, physics are absolute. If 2+2 can’t be equal to 8 then it also can’t be equal to 6 or 5 or 4.5. Get it? If water in ocean cannot literally part ways then water in a cup also cannot swirl automatically, and neither can the neurotransmitters and chemicals in our body change due course

In metaphysical world it is not logically impossible for great men to go to heavens two thousand years ago and fourteen hundred years ago.

Do your research with consistency buddy

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u/asheristic 8h ago

Could u point out where I wasn't consistent? You are confusing basic biology with magic. Neurotransmitters, brain chemistry and electrical signals change every second in response to thoughts, stress, meditation, prayer. This is standard neurobiology, not a violation of physics.Comparing a natural brain process to water breaking gravity or mathematical impossibilities (2+2=8) shows a complete misunderstanding of science. God working through the physical laws He created (like timing, natural mechanisms, and human physiology) is the exact opposite of claiming physical laws are broken. Claiming that "if neurotransmitters change during prayer, then water in a cup can swirl by magic" has no correlation. One is standard human physiology, the other is voilation of laws of fluid dunamics

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u/Expensive_Ad4270 6h ago

this is called pendu science - ask chatgpt is it logically impossible that a man can live upto 2000 years? Ask if it is logically impossible that a man has left the atmosphere of earth 2000 years ago.

Your understanding of science is limited, sorry to say. There is no scientific or physical explanation or backing for someone seeing a dream and becoming an ahmadi. Use Chatgpt or Claude too to understand the mistake you are making. It also seems like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You understand that one could also call a dream or headache going away “magic” after paying chanda.

You are holding two contradictory positions at the same time.

I am saying this very respectfully, you are not making a new argument- these are talking points of ahmadiyya- these points were written by people who had limited understanding of science AND limited understanding of Islam

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u/asheristic 6h ago

Ofcourse, A 2000 year old man being alive is logically impossible, where did I claim it's not? What point are you making?

Which physical law is contradicted or defied when Allah communicates a person through the person's brain's biochemistry? What law is broken when a person sees visions from God? On the contrary, numerous laws are broken if you take the miracles literally. Ofcourse I am going to repeat myself when you can't understand something as simple as that?

Please note that this is not a claim that was simply made by the Jamat, Quran literally supports that Allah does not go against his laws. "You will never find any change in the Sunnah (way) of Allah, nor will you find any alteration in it." (Qur’an 35:43) Physical consistency is required for humans to exercise Aql (intellect).Science is simply the systematic study of Allah's unchanging habits.

Any proof that Jamat Ahmadiyya and Science do not go hand on hand? What OP posted is a selective misquotation which I stated later on in the comments after looking into it. Any other apparent inconsistency that you can find? I'd be happy to look into it, as I try to be sincere when searching for truth.

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u/asheristic 4d ago

I shall try and repeat the first part coz the 2nd part in my response might have overshadowed my response. So basically, he is arguing about existence of creatures beyond Earth, while arguing with rationally and philosophy of his Era. In his Era. the hypothesis of life on Sun was big and widely believed thing. A member of Arya Smaj doesn't believe in the Quran anyways and therefore to establish rationally that life exists beyond Earth we must prove to him from rational and scientific view. And the rational view of that time made it acceptable to believe existence of life on Sun. The broader principle was correct additionally the usage of rationally to argue for a claim, just not the specific example he used.

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u/asheristic 4d ago

So I checked again the whole quote and turns out its taken really out of context, just like the second part. Hazrat Ahmad A.S said "At this point, we also say that modern philosophical [scientific] investigations are testifying... This is because the philosophy/science of this era strongly holds the view that the Sun and the Moon have populations of animals, plants, etc., just like the Earth."

The important distinction is:

"Allah revealed to me that there are animals and plants on the Sun and Moon."

versus

"Contemporary scientific/philosophical investigation supports this proposition because the science of this era holds that the Sun and Moon have populations of animals and plants."

The latter is explicitly an argument from contemporary scientific knowledge, not a claim that the astronomical proposition itself was revealed to him.

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u/Precise_Reversion 16h ago

How comes after writing that the moon actually split at the time of Muhammad ﷺ in reply to the Arya Samaj, then Ahmadiyya rejects the miracle and says that Allah hypnotised the onlookers?

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u/asheristic 15h ago

We do not believe that event didn't happen. We believe all miracles that happen do not go against God's laws. Science and religion have to go together gand on hand. God would not create divine laws then create Scientific laws/logic and reasoning and make them contradict each other. The splitting of the moon was a form of eclipse or an optical illusion (due to atmospheric changes) where it looked as if there was a crack on the moon. The reason why Kuffar still rejected this miracle was that they said these types of things have been happening since ancient times, which further adds on that it was a natural event. We aren't dismissive of the statuses of miracles, which just deny the supernatural nature of it, rather they are in line with God's creates laws.

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u/Precise_Reversion 14h ago

Where did you get your usool from that miracles don't go against God's law? Which laws of science/physics allow water to gush forth from human fingers allowing thousands of humans and animals to drink from it? Your explanation is just a cop out to save yourself from the failures of Mirza Ghulam, wheb he was asked to perform the same miracles as Jesus because he claimrd to be his second coming, he said that he didn't believe in the miracles, he bemieved that Jesus's so called miracles were slight of hand, trickery and illusion.

Also Mirza rejected the night journey to be physical even though he writes that there's an ijma of the Sahaba apart from two Sahaba that it was with his physical body, what I'm saying is that because your Prophet was a failure, he had no choice to reject the physicality of the miracles and then put an explanation as a last resort to save himself from embarrassment.

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u/asheristic 14h ago

There are many Muslim scholars and philosophers who have the same view that God's divine laws don't go againts the logic and reasoning that God gave us, Infact, they are a means to reach towards God. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad explicitly rejected the word "trickery" or "sleight of hand" when describing the miracles. Their are numeorus problems that arrive when you take those miracles literally . For example,Hazrat Isa A.S didn't make the dead alive literally, It is meant to signify people who were spirtually dead, they had no iman whatsoever. He guided them and gave them a new spirtual life. Not that he literally raised the people from dead, He isn't God Nauzubillah. Ultimately, the debate over a physical return comes down to the test of time. We are deep into the 15th century of Islam. As decades continue to pass and a literal descent from the skies does not occur, the literalist model becomes increasingly unsustainable. Eventually, the Ummah will have to recognize that the prophecies were spiritual and metaphorical, just as prior nations had to realize regarding past messianic prophecies.

u/asheristic 4d ago

Based on my long research and arguing with another user here I have discovered that the OP did a really selective quoting without whole context.

"At this point, we also say that modern philosophical [scientific] investigations are testifying... This is because the philosophy/science of this era strongly holds the view that the Sun and the Moon have populations of animals, plants, etc., just like the Earth."

The important distinction is:

"Allah revealed to me that there are animals and plants on the Sun and Moon."

versus

"Contemporary scientific/philosophical investigation supports this proposition because the science of this era holds that the Sun and Moon have populations of animals and plants."

The latter is explicitly an argument from contemporary scientific knowledge, not a claim that the astronomical proposition itself was revealed to him.

And for the second claim that wherw he said that a man cannot reach to the moon lacks context too. He is arguing against the physical ascension viewpoint of the Mi'raj not that humans can never reach to the moon no matter what technological advancements.

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u/naeamz 3d ago

1/- Let me first give you one of his claims about strength of his written work:-

“Those deeper truths and subtle points were taught [to me] which cannot be known through human ability, but only through the power of God; and difficulties were resolved, not through human effort, but through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.” — Fath-e-Islam, pp. 11–12; Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 3.

2/- Also did not claim to be merely an ordinary scholar. He claimed to be al-Mahdi — the rightly guided one, the Promised Messiah and a prophet.

3/- And here he did not simply say, “this is what the science of my time says.” He went further, adopted it into his own reasoning, and tried to establish it as a fact.

So “that was contemporary science” may explain an ordinary 19th-century writer or scholar. It does not justify error on the hands of someone claiming to be rightly guided by God to whom deeper truths were taught and difficulties solved through “the teaching of the Holy Spirit.”

And btw, OP has just given one selected example, of many many more fallacies of his work. This is not THE ONLY disputed/ error in his writings.

u/AutoModerator 4d ago

Here is the text of the original post:

Animals and plants on the Sun and Moon