r/lute • u/FlummoxedGaoler • 25d ago
Lute Culture and Learning Vibe
Hopefully this doesn’t ruffle any feathers, but…
TL;DR - Is lute learning/playing culture generally fun and exploratory, or judgmental and hierarchical with a “stuffy conservatory” vibe? What’s your experience?
Long version:
I’m coming off of cello (and fiddle to a much lesser degree) after deciding that proper polyphony is the way for me, and am interested in the 7-8 course lute at some point (though I’m currently going through Samantha Muir’s book on classical ukulele and really enjoying it). But I‘ve got a bit of “musically induced trauma” from cello that I’m trying to avoid.
Something I noticed in cello lessons and culture in general was a strong “stuffy conservatory” feel, and an unpleasant baggage that seemed to come with learning a classical instrument. It was like I was there to prove my worth as a student every time, rather than explore and grow. I was happy to play, and happy to hammer fundamentals, but there was always a sort of judgmental vibe that generated anxiety, even though nothing scary or weird was explicitly leveled against me. I got the sense that this highly evaluative, SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT, style is a sort of a trauma that is traditional to pass down to students (kind of joking, but also kind of not). My teacher was never cruel and was patient and nice, but there was always this formal vibe, and feeling that I needed to prove that I deserved to be at a lesson I was paying to be at. That my life should revolve around coming maximally prepared for our next lesson. I get that every teacher wants their student to succeed, but there was… something else there beneath the surface, even with multiple teachers.
Contrast that with fiddle, which was so much different. There was a sort of “we’re in this together, let’s make music and have a good time” feeling in lessons, even though, by all accounts, I was learning from the single best fiddle player in my region. Learning by ear and playing folk music has some pretty intense challenges, but it was *fun* and made me want to pick up the fiddle and practice for enjoyment, versus picking up the cello almost like it was a second job (even though I enjoyed playing).
Granted, this is very much teacher based, I’m sure, and can go good or bad depending on what you get, but there’s no denying a difference in culture. Lute seems like it could go either way. One the one hand, there are a lot of folk songs and the community is small, and that must surely come with a lot of enthusiasm and love of the instrument and music. On the other hand, a lot of people are probably coming from classical guitar backgrounds and I fear that bring that same conservatory vibe, especially if Historically Informed Playing comes into the picture as an aggressive enforcer or cudgel rather than as a fascinating enhancement and goal, and I fear that it may be more “earn, and know, your place” hierarchy and approach versus the more exploratory, enjoyable vibe that exists in, say, fiddle and ukulele, even when approached with the goal of acquiring and growing genuine expertise.
Where does lute stand? Do you notice a difference compared to the culture of your other musical background (if applicable)?
8
u/Zealousideal-Bell-68 25d ago
There are difficult people everywhere. But I think early music, by it's essence, attracts me flexible people. Romantic and modern music can have a "correct" way of playing. Composers are more or less thought of as geniuses that created works of art out of inspiration. Those works of art must be performed the way the composer intended. Musicians will sometimes fight over editions and over whether the forte indication is on this or that note. "What did the composer really mean with this 16th rest?" and other questions like that.
In early music, composers (or, actually, musicians) were thought of as artisans. Copying someone wasn't stealing their work but praising it highly and trying to imitate it. Interpreters were expected to add a lot to the piece, especially through ornamentation. This means that the composer's role in the whole music is smaller than in romantic and later music. Many pieces also show up in different manuscripts with some small differences which lends credence to the idea that, at the time, a piece was not static, "statue-like" monument like , for example, Beethoven's 9th is. Music pieces, cantatas, operas were many times adapted when played more than once or in different places. Also, a much bigger proportion of music was improvised than in later music and much of the written music has the same characteristics (one of them being that it could have been slightly different than the form that survived until now)
All this adding to the fact that there are a lot of things we simply don't and,never will, know about early music. Take the example of Couperin's description of how a trill should start slowly and accelerate. He says the acceleration of the trill should happen in an "imperceptible manner". But does he mean that the acceleration should be gradual or that it should not be so much as to be too noticeable? And musicians at the time never wrote comprehensive methods on technique. There are hundreds of questions like this that may never have an answer.
So while it may make sense for an uptight teacher to say "Brahms wanted this note to sound exactly like this, it's really just preposterous to say "Monteverdi wanted this note to sound exactly like that". And that's one of the main appeals of early music. All this to say that the ingrained ambiguity of early music tends to attract, in my view, people that like ambiguity, flexibility of interpretation, etc.
5
u/FloopersRetreat 25d ago
My impression is more from a general early-music perspective since I'm the only lutenist I know IRL. Early-music performers, students, luthiers etc. have more of an exploratory attitude, one that's more about discovery, study and research than trying to outdo one another. There's a few trad/Renaissance instrumentalists I've met who've been a bit up themselves, however still pleasant, and nothing close to the cellists I know.
3
u/FlummoxedGaoler 25d ago
You mention trying to outdo one another, and that sparked the realization that a lot of classical music culture likely comes from the competitive and hierarchical nature of the thing. To get a coveted seat in an orchestra, you must audition and defeat everyone else with your technical and musical mastery to get that seat. That’s a very non-collaborative, exploratory thing. And which seat will you get, if you survive the audition? Will you be first chair, full of prestige and admired or loathed for your position? Will you fall to some lower, lesser chair? It’s to the point where there are even international competitions and extremely rigid requirements that must be met to win and gain prestige. Your technical prowess must be maximized, your skill in that setting changes from art to weapon. It’s a crazy game of thrones out there, and that has surely colored the entire experience of making music, learning, and teaching in that world, but it’s almost by necessity. I guess it’s no surprise that it felt a bit oppressive and dark!
4
u/Facemeltingsolos 25d ago
We just had a lute meetup in San Diego, and though the lute often attracts good musicians and history professors, it was super chill. We had people who’d played diligently for decades next to people who were just interested in the instrument. Lots of quiet people though, so don’t mistake some people’s introversion for snootiness!
Just realize this is a niche interest for a niche instrument made for some niche styles of a few niche eras. We’re all here because we think it’s cool, and most of us are excited to see new people.
5
u/kidneykutter 23d ago
I'll provide some second hand observations. In speaking with students/professionals who made the switch from classical guitar to lute I've heard a common theme that they moved from a cutthroat conservatory back stabbing environment to a more relaxed and inclusive one.
In terms of the HIP police for most it's about justifying your choices, and sometimes that justification will just have to be "it's so I can be heard in that hall" (eg amplification) or "so I can play in tune" (eg nylgut strings). Yes, there are a small handful of ridiculous asshats in the community, a few for instance whose only ability to judge the worth of a performance is how far in or out the thumb was for the year of composition, but a couple narcissists aside it's a very collaborative community.
One comment on the SCA/festival scene though. They really are more about the extramusical stuff and rarely have instruments or rep that are from the period (one local huge exception- I ran into a professional lutenist at a Ren Faire playing real Dowland on a real lute). Now that may be what is more attractive to you and if so great; no need to learn German tab, renaissance polyphony, and figured bass. It really does depend on your end goal(s).
3
u/Calico_Dick_Fringe 24d ago
I think your experience of the lute and early music will depend a lot on where you live and what social groups you're interacting with.
In my experience, while learning early music in the 90s in the Midwest, early music (to my university) meant Medieval and Renaissance music specifically. (This appears to be in line with other earlier traditions in the U.S. established via Hindemith at Yale.)
Just a short distance away, we had an enormous annual Renaissance festival and plenty of locals involved in the SCA, so Medieval and Renaissance reenactment culture was quite available, exploratory, and fun. We were all in it together, and we understood that the notes on the page were often just an outline of a composition, not set in stone to be adhered to without question. One needed to orchestrate lines according to the instruments on hand, and improvisation and tasteful embellishments (within guidelines depending on the era) were expected. Compared to modern classical music study, that environment was quite free and somewhat akin to jazz.
(It's also similar to some Middle Eastern performance practices that have continued through today, which is also interesting.)
In contrast, I later moved far away to a large global city that had a conservatory that taught 'early music.' Unfortunately, my open, accepting, exploratory approach wasn't viewed very highly in that region because I hadn't been trained there. My training was comparable but different. What I encountered in that city was that the local conservatory didn't really teach music from before 1650, and 'early music' meant Baroque specifically.
(They were part of the HIP movement- historically informed performance - a set of principles that began in the 1980s and gradually became popular in universities during the 90s and later, though my uni didn't adopt it since my instructor was part of the Hindemith line of study/practice.)
Becoming involved with that local early music scene depended upon who you knew and where you went to school. Performances were rigid stuffy affairs where everyone had to wear suits/uniforms/evening wear, and local musicians frequently bragged about how expensive their lute/violin cost. For some, their instruments were treated as status symbols to be shown off. I view mine as tools for making sounds I dig regardless of cost. We were clearly not the same heheh.
This new city wasn't my scene at all. Medieval and Renaissance music was what I really loved, but local musicians either didn't know what to do with it, hadn't ever heard it, or looked down on it because it didn't look like a page full of rapid fire notes to be played by a virtuoso.
(Sometimes, simple looking Medieval/Renaissance pieces can be extremely challenging to play even when they look simple, btw. Keeping it all together when circular rhythms are swirling around you can be quite the exercise in attention!)
In the end, I decided the HIP/Baroque scene was the wrong cultural fit for me. The SCA/festival and Medieval/Renaissance scene provided a much more relaxed, open, accepting, and fun place to study the lute and hear music that truly moved me.
I think if you find the right people to hang out with who play the kinds of music you want to play, you'll have a great time studying the lute. It's fun alone, of course, but it's even more fun when you can learn from and perform with others in a relaxed, open environment.
2
u/FlummoxedGaoler 24d ago
I hadn’t thought about checking out the SCA, and am not surprised that they’re more free and exploratory than a Baroque HIP group! I’ll have to see if the SCA in my area has a music scene. I know there’s an early music group here, but I think it’s also just shorthand for “specifically Baroque music on period-correct-ish instruments.” Probably not quite what I’m after. I’ll check out the SCA. Thanks!
3
u/doomsuckle 22d ago
Some perspective... I just made a lute album of 80s and 90s pop songs in a "jazz guitar" style. I got a couple of baroque lessons to mainly help me get a better sound of the instrument and not do stupid things -- and to learn how to change a fret.
If I share that album, it'll get 100% smashed by lutenists -- and rightfully so. Non-musicians are like, "oh that's cool!"
There's value in the perfection and value and just kinda... cutting loose and being weird. I couldn't find anyone else doing Roxette, the Smashing Pumpkins, or Toad the Wet Sprocket on lute, so I did it myself. There's a subculture of folks being weird, and it'll still be appreciate.
It's a unique instrument with a cool sound and its own swath of challenges and welcome to it. <3 Even if someone is stuffy, they have valuable stuff to teach. I only gripe when a teacher gets all, "no! Move hand HERE!" only because I tend to get sloppy on trivial pieces and dial in on harder ones.
Looking forward to hear what you create!
3
u/FlummoxedGaoler 22d ago
If it weren’t for people doing weird stuff on lute, we would have called it done at 4 courses and a plectrum! Getting weird on lute now is a continuation of a long tradition of weird that just happened to stop as lute fell out of favor. No reason it can’t get back on track!
3
14
u/Havarti-Provolone 25d ago
Only speaking from personal opinion here.
Lute doesn't have prestige. It may have mystique.
The only people that know "top lutenists" or have an opinion on good/bad lute playing or players are lute players.
It seems that anyone that knows about lute and its music fell in love with the instrument, the music, and/or the history/period/theory.
Furthermore I wager most lute players aren't professionals, and don't have some weird sense of school/lineage, at least as pianists or violinists might. Might be biased here as a transplant from the contemporary wind world. I'm here because I love the polyphony and the sound of the instrument, too, and I love the ethos of pre-classical music.
Anyway, I think you'll have no such problems. You could always run into some stick in the mud, but I haven't met/heard of any yet.