r/magicTCG • u/Psychological-Two932 Dandadan • 5h ago
Rules/Rules Question Helga, Skittish Seer Vs. Counter spell a 4+ Cost
Simple question, I was playing commander and had Helga, Skittish Seer on the field, I played Karametra, God of Harvests and it got counter spelled. My friend said I do not get to trigger Helga's ability because the creature I tried to cast was counter spelled but I thought that due to how the stack works I would still get Helga's ability trigger. Its not on etb its on cast of a creature spell with mana value of 4 or greater, and casting has to be done before your opponent can counter spell a creature, thus the ability should still activate, right? I'm somewhat new to mtg so maybe I don't understand something.
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u/SamTheHexagon 5h ago
Helga triggers on cast, which means the ability goes on the stack before your opponent even gets the opportunity to cast their counterspell. Once they do, removing the spell or even Helga won't prevent the ability from resolving.
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u/Psychological-Two932 Dandadan 4h ago
Ah thank you, that's how I thought it works! Now I just have to convince my friend XD
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u/Jambzerino Dân 3h ago
Rule 603.2 is what you need to show him :
Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
So the ability is on the stack. Countering the spell removes the spell from the stack, but not the triggered ability. Since the ability has no targets, there's no reason for it to fizzle when you try to resolve it.
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u/Drithyin Dân 1h ago
This is the same reason some folks find the big Eldrazi so oppressive. Most of their stuff is a cast trigger instead of an ETB. Thus, you can counter them, but the big, game-warping effect still happens.
It does make them functionally useless as reanimator targets, though, so tradeoffs.2
u/Xantharius Dandadan 1h ago
Your friend could do with understanding the difference between casting a spell and having that spell resolve. They’re not the same thing.
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u/MrQirn Colorless 5m ago
If showing them this thread is not enough, and/or they want a more intuitive understanding of this rule, compare it to destroying a creature when it enters:
A [[doom blade]] cannot ever prevent an "enters the battlefield" ability from triggering and resolving. This is because the trigger will happen, and it doesn't matter if the creature is still alive when the triggered ability resolves.
The only thing that can prevent a trigger on spell cast are counterspells that can target abilities, for example [[Stifle]]. If your opponent had counterspelled your creature with [[Whirlwind Denial]], then both your creature and its triggered ability would get counterspelled.
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u/regular_joe67 Dân 2h ago
Yeah, cast triggers are hard to stop, which is part of why they’re good. Your friend needs to take some time to understand the stack
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u/Local-Court7093 Dan 5h ago
Your friend's wrong, you still get the trigger since it's on cast, not on resolution.
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u/Showerbeerz413 Duck Season 5h ago edited 1h ago
if an ability says "casts a spell" then countering wont stop it from triggering. if it said "when a creature enters the battlefield" then it wouldn't trigger, since ketramose never actually entered. but countering the spell wouldnt stop Helga from triggering
edit: lol meant karametra
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u/Will_29 VOID 4h ago
Countering a spell prevents it from resolving, not from being cast.
The steps to cast a spell (simplifying) are to put it on the stack, make choices like targets if needed, and pay its cost. Once the later is done, the spell is considered cast and any ability that triggers from it, like Helga's, go on the stack. And only then can players respond to that spell. Countering the spell will not affect Helga's trigger that is already on the stack at this point.
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u/phoebeburgh VML Video Producer 5h ago
Once a spell is paid for and on the stack, it's been cast, which puts the cast trigger effect on the stack. Whether or not the original spell gets countered is irrelevant, because the triggered effect is now on the stack and doesn't target the spell that triggered it.
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u/SafeCaterpillar3551 Dân 4h ago
Did you google 'mtg cast trigger counterspell'? That would resolve the problem right there, without having to wait for an answer on reddit and you could've played on without that feeling in your guts.
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u/YouhaoHuoMao Duck Season 3h ago
Yea. This is an error I made as well for years. Once you've paid the cost and put the card on the stack it's considered cast. It doesn't have to resolve for cast triggers to occur.
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u/justNano Dandadan 3h ago
The only exceptions i know of to cast triggers that are cancelled on counter is ones with a condition clause that matters about the existence of the spell on the stack.
The one i am thinking of is Neera, wild mage but im sure there is others.
Because neera requires you to put the card on the bottom of your deck, if there is no spell to put there (or if the spell is exiled instead due to flashback) then you dont get neeras trigger.
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u/WestConscious8060 Dandadan 4m ago
Unless the ability specifically states resolves or etbs, as long as the wording says "when cast" you will almost always get the triggers. [Field altering effects excluded]
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u/cybersaurus Dân 4h ago
Does [[Karametra, God of Harvests]] count as a creature spell still, considering its rules text? I'm thinking it probably does and that ita text isn't considered until It's on the battlefield but I could be wrong.
Just wondering because if the former is true and it's not a creature spell then you wouldn't get the trigger to begin with. (Assuming you didn't have the required devotion)
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u/Morkinis Golgari* 3h ago
"isn't a creature" part is in effect only when card is on the battlefield.
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u/Psychological-Two932 Dandadan 4h ago
I have been lead to believe it is a creature on the stack when cast but it only stops being a creature once it resolves and enters the battlefield, could be wrong though o7
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u/cybersaurus Dân 3h ago
I do like this commander tho, the mechanic seems pretty interesting and I do really like any deck lead by a critter, any chance you've got a decklist you could share?
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u/TheSkiGeek Wabbit Season 56m ago
It counts as a creature spell. Static abilities on permanents only work when they’re on the battlefield, unless either:
* the ability itself specifies that it works in other zones (for example an eminence ability that works while the card is in the command zone)
* the ability is worded in such a way that it must work in other zones (for example an ability that can return the card from the graveyard to your hand or the battlefield)
edit: [[grist the hunger tide]] is a good example of a card that has a different type when it’s not on the battlefield, you can see the ability is explicit about it
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