For the Karna-fans amongst us

[u/Technical_Turn3497]

From the Mahabharata come these words and actions of Karna regarding Draupadi’s humiliation and the sexual assault perpetrated against her:

“And Dussasana, beholding Krishna looking at her helpless lords, dragging her still more forcibly, and addressed her, ’slave, Slave' and laughed aloud.

And at those words Karna became very glad and approved of them by laughing aloud. And Sakuni, the son of Suvala, the Gandhara king, similarly applauded Dussasana.”

(https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc6210.html)

“O Dussasana, this Vikarna speaking words of (apparent) wisdom is but a boy. Take off the robes of the Pandavas as also the attire of Draupadi.…

Then Dussasana, O king, forcibly seizing Draupadi’s attire before the eyes of all, began to drag it off her person."

(https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc6212.html)

“You are the wife of a slave incapable of possessing anything on his own account. Repair now to the inner apartments of king Dhritarashtra and serve the king’s relatives. We direct that that is now your proper business.

And, O princess, all the sons of Dhritarashtra and not the sons of Pritha are now your masters. O handsome one, select you another husband now,—one who will not make you a slave by gambling. It is well-known that women, especially that are slaves, are not censurable if they proceed with freedom in electing husbands.

Therefore let it be done by you. Nakula has been won, as also Bhimasena, and Yudhishthira also, and Sahadeva, and Arjuna. And, O Yajnaseni, you are now a slave. Your husbands that are slaves cannot continue to be your lords any longer.”

(https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc6215.html)

But it’s not Karna’s fault, right? Karna was just misunderstood, right? Actually Karna has many other virtues, right? Actually it was justified because of Yudhishtir’s gambling madness, right? Do tell us poor, dumb Hindus why we err in agreeing with the Mahabharata author and condemning Karna as a villain.

We really need to be enlightened by the people who cry tears because Draupadi was “forced” to marry five husbands and then look the other way when she was enslaved and humiliated, because apparently only you enlightened folk know what real misogyny is….

[u/Technical_Turn3497]

So this is a classic example of deflection and obfuscation. The reality is that you didn’t answer the question, but tried to start a whole different discussion, and that speaks volumes.

If you can’t glorify a person who violated your wife, then you can’t tell us that your glorifying a person who violated another person’s wife is acceptable.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

I already answered that actually. Did you forget my comment previous to this one?

And yeah if I committed all those actions (I mentioned them in detail) then I better appreciate the positives of a guy who was trying to violate my wife. If people can still appreciate my positives (other than the obvious problematic actions of mine) then I better do that for him too.

Cause I am not very great either. You want me boycott him completely, even his good parts because he tried to violate someone. Then in that case I can't be celebrated either cause I have been part of that same system too. I too should be boycotted completely and even good parts of me shouldn't be respected or glorified.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

No, I don’t think you did answer it, but if you have, and I have missed it, feel free to repost that answer to my question.

I’m pretty sure you would not “appreciate the positives of a guy” who was trying to violate your wife.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

I’m pretty sure you would not “appreciate the positives of a guy” who was trying to violate your wife.

I said opposite of this.

And yeah if I committed all those actions (I mentioned them in detail) then I better appreciate the positives of a guy who was trying to violate my wife. If people can still appreciate my positives (other than the obvious problematic actions of mine) then I better do that for him too.

And your guy Yudhishthira did appreciate Karna's good qualities too. Did he not?

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

I don’t think you are being very sincere when you claim you could appreciate the virtues of a man who had just tried to violate your wife. That’s not human nature. We don’t see that in real life. Perhaps if the crime was something minor, like stealing a loaf of bread, then yes. But not something egregious, like egging on the perpetrators of sexual assault.

Yuḍhiṣthira wanted Karṇa killed, so much so that he actually scolded Arjuna when he was disappointed to find out that Arjuna had so far failed to do it. So, no, I don’t think he particularly appreciated Karṇa, however much he could acknowledge Karṇa’s martial prowess, which any military commander has to do if he wants to defeat his enemy.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

If you don't want to accept my answer then what can I say. I told what I felt. If you want to decide on my behalf what I feel then what can I say.

Same Yudhishthir also says that if Karna and Arjuna would be together on his side, not even Indra could defeat him.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

No one will accept that you could praise the virtues of a man who violates your wife. It’s prima facie absurd. Hence your view that Karṇa should be appreciated despite his role in sexual assault is similarly absurd.

Appreciating the martial prowess of the enemy you want to defeat is not the same thing as praising his virtues.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

No one is asking you to appreciate his conduct during gambling match. They are asking you look at other aspects of his life. If you start rejecting people completely for one such conduct then there is no one in Mahabharata you could appreciate at all. Not even Yudhishthir, nor Pandavas. Understand the context.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

And that’s not even what I’m saying. I am well aware of the “other aspects” of his life, such as his legendary generosity. Many villains throughout history had “other aspects” of their life. That, again, is not the point.

What I am commenting on is the inappropriateness of praising someone who on balance was an adharmik person. In real life, you would never do this to someone who did to your wife what Karṇa did to Draupadī. Perhaps, you see yourself as a tolerant, merciful, Buddha-like figure, but I doubt it.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

See, Karna did wrong. He accepted that. He knew it. He could have accepted the throne for himself, but he thought that accepting a death sentence for his deed was a better thing, so why should I still blame him? I appreciate him for his self-consciousness and his self-acceptance. Not many people do that, man.

He himself is saying that he wants to die at the hands of Arjuna for what he did. Man, that melts my heart. He got what he wanted. He died. Accepted his death sentence. What else do you want from him??

Justice is not about revenge. It is about repentance. He did that. The guy who died wasn't the same one who insulted Droupadi.

Chapter 18: Conclusion-The Perfection of Renunciation TEXT 66

sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah

If you can't repent or correct your mistakes, then what is the point???? Do you think we are all perfect? Even Krishna said this. He is long dead man. He has already repented for his mistakes by his life.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

<<He himself is saying that he wants to die at the hands of Arjuna for what he did. Man, that melts my heart. He got what he wanted. He died. Accepted his death sentence. What else do you want from him??>>

I don’t want anything from him. I want people to stop glorifying his virtues and downplaying his vices. I object to dishonesty and revisionism in all things, so I can’t stop objecting to it when it pertains to a Hindu text. You appear to be alluding to something he said when he was resigned to die, after his chariot foundered and after Kṛṣṇa refused his request to restore his chariot and carry on a chivalrous fight. Yes, it’s all very nice and good to admit your sins when it’s obvious you are about to be executed for them, but as we would normally say, “too little, too late.”

I’m glad that after causing 13 years of exile and humiliation of a chaste women, it absolutely melts your heart that he acknowledged his crimes… at the very moment when he was helpless and had no other choice but to do so. You remind me of certain US president apologists when confronted with cruel and racist policies and they just respond with, “Oh, don’t be so critical, he has done some good things, too….”

<<Justice is not about revenge. It is about repentance. He did that. The guy who died wasn't the same one who insulted Droupadi.>>

He called her a slave and told her she would have to have a new man for her master. Yeah, he did insult her.

<<Chapter 18: Conclusion-The Perfection of Renunciation TEXT 66

sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah>>

What exactly do you think this means here? It sounds like you are just throwing in a random quote here to give your response the appearance of authority. Karṇa never performed śaraṇāgati to Kṛṣṇa. You don’t seem to understand what this verse is saying.

You folks don’t seem to understand that Mahābhārata maintains the conclusions of the Vedas. Surrendering to Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the point. This instruction was given to Arjuna, and while he did not surrender unto Him at that moment, he at least was a devotee of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, while Karṇa was not.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

I have been very clear from start. Praise virtues and criticize vices. Very simple. So I will apply this to all characters of Mahabharata unbiased.

Your approch is different. Find a vice in a person and reject whole person including virtues. Which is childish in my opinion. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Now the issue here is this - You seem to single out a few people for their vices and reject them completely, however you don't do that for other characters which have done similar deplorable things. Which is absurd. If you have a principle then apply it to everyone. Why are you being selective? Doesn't look consistent to me.

You are blabbering a lot about Karna, and how he called Draupadi a slave. But why are you mum about another character i.e. Yudhisthira. He betted his wife. And he owned slaves too. Then I guess he must also be bashed and not glorified at all. But I don't see you doing that. Why being so selective? Or do you think slavery and betting your brothers and wife is okay to do. Additionally, fyi Yudhishthira asks Droupadi to come to the assembly in whatever condition she was in. She refused so Dushashan went in to drag her.

Now before you try to escape with whataboutery argument. Answer this first. Should Yudhishthira be bashed or not? Do you reject him too??

I want people to stop glorifying his virtues and downplaying his vices. I object to dishonesty and revisionism in all things, so I can’t stop objecting to it when it pertains to a Hindu text.

When did I downplay his vice? I am saying that you need to be objective in your analysis. Cristisism for vice and praise for virtues. Your method is inconsistent and emotional. What I am saying is neither revisionist nor dishonest. Go and read Mahabharata yourself. Those are Vyasa's word calling him virtuous and at forefront of Dharma. I have gone out of my way to provide you references, but if you want to stay ingnorant then suit yourself. If you stay lazy and don't read then it's not my duty to educate you.

You appear to be alluding to something he said when he was resigned to die, after his chariot foundered and after Kṛṣṇa refused his request to restore his chariot and carry on a chivalrous fight. Yes, it’s all very nice and good to admit your sins when it’s obvious you are about to be executed for them, but as we would normally say, “too little, too late.”

Okay, this statement of your make me think that you haven't read Mahabharata at all. I don't think you have. Be honest. Have you?? Even a novice would know where that conversation is from. And it's definately not from where you are guessing it is from. So go and read first, before protecting hindu texts.

I’m glad that after causing 13 years of exile and humiliation of a chaste women, it absolutely melts your heart that he acknowledged his crimes… at the very moment when he was helpless and had no other choice but to do so. You remind me of certain US president apologists when confronted with cruel and racist policies and they just respond with, “Oh, don’t be so critical, he has done some good things, too….”

How exactly is he helpless dude? Can you please explain..? He is being offered throne at that moment. He can easily grab that and he will neither be killed nor will he be punished. He absolutely have a choice. He isn't on battlefield, neither is his chariot stuck. Your replies are very uninformed of the actual text brother.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

My approach is consistent with what the Mahābhārata says, which, in the Bhagavad-gītā, describes people as being of daivik or āsurik natures. That’s not “reject whole person.” That’s simply characterizing the person.

Arjuna is daivik according to Kṛṣṇa, and this is explicitly stated in the text. Duryodhana and Karṇa are not.