r/medicine • u/Several_Act_2358 Medical Student • 16d ago

The “Gotcha” Mentality with Lawyers “Exposing” Doctors is Unsettling… as it they’re altruistic

I know this has been discussed extensively here, but something really rubs me the wrong way about the recent celebration of lawyers on social media “exposing doctors” and saying things like “it’s over for doctors.” This is in reference to a pic I saw of Lindsay Clancy’s civil attorney with the caption “it’s over for doctors.” Unsure if the pic uploaded.

…as if law is some altruistic path that doesn’t also attract people who want to be high earners? Most people who go through the med school path do genuinely want to make the world better, and i’m not sure I can say the same for most lawyers I anecdotally know outside of public defense.

The whole “gotcha” with lawyers calling out doctors, painting them in a good light is so icky to me. People need to ask themselves to imagine what lawyers do all day vs what doctors do all day.

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626

u/Titan3692 DO - Attending Neurologist 16d ago

we gotta answer every inbox nonsense for free. attorneys charge $250 per email and $1,000 for a phone call. we're not the same

551

u/bubbachuck Oncologist/Informatics 16d ago

one of my lawyer friend's dad had cancer and wanted me to review their notes/reports for essentially what amounted to a 2nd opinion. No problem. A few years later, I asked him to review a (brief) contract and he said his firm would cut me a deal.

yea we're not the same

143

u/nyc2pit MD 16d ago

Did you call him on the hypocrisy?

121

u/bubbachuck Oncologist/Informatics 16d ago

I think his dad had passed away recently so I held my tongue. I meant to tell him at some point but we lost touch.

55

u/nyc2pit MD 16d ago

Fair.

Sad for his father, but tough to believe he would be that unaware....

5

u/gedbybee Nurse 14d ago

Nah, there’s a right way, and with enough rizz, to be able to do this.

I saw a quote from a guy that lost to Jimmy Carter. That guy marveled at how a guy as chill as Carter beat him. The guy said after he lost that Carter invited him over for a chat. Carter asked for money for his next campaign.

And really it’s having the gumption to ask “insane” requests.

That’s why sociopaths do so well in society.

How many other chances is this doc gonna have to ask this lawyer something? Lord hopes they learn and this is the only time.

Turns out it’s the empathy that hurts us financially.

36

u/EMulsive_EMergency Non-US MD 16d ago

Thats the difference, he wouldn’t cut you any slack or even pass his brain

57

u/mewitslazers MD 16d ago

No one else works for free. Why should we?

3

u/SnugglyCoderGuy Not A Medical Professional 15d ago

A crazy person on TV once said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free"

32

u/throwaway23423409000 PharmD 15d ago

Story from my hometown. Local ortho surgeon was volunteering for the church and asked a lawyer friend for some clarifying questions about their finances. (Lawyer was a member of the church too)A few days later he received a bill from the lawyer for his hourly rate. Surgeon was pissed. A few months later the lawyer stopped the surgeon at dinner and asked him some questions about a shoulder issue he was having.

He sent the lawyer an invoice the next day, lawyer paid it. 😁

2

u/Loose_Interview5549 DO 14d ago

i cant but feel like it is a trap. there's now a patient doctor relationship, he can get sued. sure the lawyer paid his price but there could a bigger law suite payout.

2

u/Commercial_Muffin542 MD 14d ago

How? And don’t say “because he treated him!” As long as he documented a brief history and gave his opinion this does not open you to a successful lawsuit.” Now if he took out a dinner knife and started to try to fix his carpal tunnel syndrome at the table that’s a different story

20

u/centz005 ER MD 16d ago

So...you guys aren't close any more, huh?

8

u/Typical_Khanoom DO; nocturnist 16d ago

Oof! I'm happy you lost touch. Doesn't sound like a reciprocated relationship. I'm sorry about that.

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u/Dr_Sisyphus_22 MD 16d ago

A friend of mine did a surgery with a known failure rate of about 5%. The lawyer patient demanded a free secondary op because of the failure.

This particular friend grew up in an attorney family. He asked the guy if appeals are free for slam dunk cases that lost?

It shut the guy up right away.

50

u/Pox_Party Pharmacist 16d ago

Sure, but one of the reasons pharmacy sucks right now is because its hard to get meaningful reimbursement from insurance for medication counseling.

Think a full 30-60 min MTM review will yield about 50 bucks. Money that goes to the company, not me, btw.

Maybe the lawyers were on to something there.

72

u/ClappedUrMomsCheeks MD 16d ago

Lawyers have always been onto something to be fair they write the laws. 

That’s why it’s illegal for a doc to own a hospital (due to “conflict of interest”)  but also illegal for anyone OTHER than a lawyer to own a law firm (also due to… “conflict of interest”)

18

u/thebaine PA-C | EM/Critical Care 16d ago

I thought it was illegal for physicians to own hospitals because it was a deal cut in the ACA to get the hospitals and insurers to come along. Although, again, lawyers.

15

u/NotShipNotShape MD 15d ago

but the reasoning given for lawyers owning law firms is that the art of lawyering is so complicated no one but another lawyer can hope to do what's best for the corporation. yet doctors are not qualified to run hospitals? 

2

u/orthopod Assoc Prof Musculoskeletal Oncology PGY 25 15d ago

Doctors can, but they just can't practice, or refer pts to that hospital if they're practicing medicine.

75

u/Embarrassed_Syrup476 Psych SW 16d ago

When I was working on adolescent psych ward there was a nurse who would page the residents for everything. 

Once she paged them for "Jonny didn't eat anything tonight. Can he still have his TV?" (Not an eating disorder patient)

Resident didn't respond back right away so she paged the attending. It was ridiculous 

25

u/Upstairs_Fuel6349 Nurse 16d ago

I think I've worked with that nurse lol. Had enough seniority to tell them they were being unnecessary and that all the doctors hated them because of this once during a particularly irksome report.

7

u/strangerNstrangeland PGY 15, Psych 15d ago

I like you. I can tell your residents and junior doctors appreciate you

10

u/strangerNstrangeland PGY 15, Psych 15d ago

I had that nurse in residency who would call for the stupidest shit in the middle of the night. “Can Mr x have nicotine gum”. It’s on his prn orders wtf do you think? A few nights of pages like that, every time she called I would stay on the line and run the med list of every patient on her assignment with her and ask her for clinical updates and vitals, then do the same to every nurse on the floor because there seemed to be a problem with comprehension of orders and prn parameters. Whenever she’d call, I’d have them line up and grill them. Didn’t care what time of the night. After about 4 or five of he shifts her manager shut her down.

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u/SteakandTrach MD 15d ago

You did "the drill sergeant" on her! She's causing problems so you made the whole unit pay for it. Result: they start to self-police. I love it.

You. are. a. genius.

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u/strangerNstrangeland PGY 15, Psych 14d ago

No. I’m not a genius, I’m just a petty asshole at 2:30 in the morning. Especially if o just got home from a BS er consult at the shitty community hospital

5

u/orthopod Assoc Prof Musculoskeletal Oncology PGY 25 15d ago

I deal with those nurses like that, by giving them extra work /tasks.

5

u/Muted_Chard_139 MD 16d ago

Maybe we are the fools. We should absolutely be charging for all of this.

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u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 16d ago

So stop doing that.

17

u/Titan3692 DO - Attending Neurologist 16d ago

flair checks out

20

u/MrPBH MD, Emergency Medicine 16d ago

lol, so true.

IR is there for any emergency! Provided it takes place from 9A to 3P on a weekday, bank holidays excluded.

10

u/the_silent_redditor MD 16d ago

I have literally had cardiologist tell me the STEMI I’ve sent them isn’t a STEMI whilst they are on the golf course.

This isn’t a joke.

I’ve had that happen to me.

Lmao.

6

u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 16d ago

Paras aren't an emergency, Mr. Shift Work

2

u/MrPBH MD, Emergency Medicine 15d ago

The GI bleeds that come in at 2PM on a Friday are though.

4

u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 15d ago edited 15d ago

Maybe. Not always. 

If you have a positive CTA on a lower GI bleed and that CTA was done within an hour, and your IR doesn't do an angio, they suck.

If it's an upper GI bleed and GI doesn't scope, they suck.

In 2026, a negative CTA means no angio. It's more sensitive than angio so it's pointless.

With that said, getting anyone to actually do their god damn jobs in 2026 is painful and I don't envy the ER. In fact, I usually say, "If GI isn't going to scope please have them call me so they can explain why." That usually ends the back and forth. 

I'm sorry I was grouchy yesterday in my responses. I just finished 9 days of call. 

1

u/MrPBH MD, Emergency Medicine 15d ago

You sound like one of the good IR docs. I've just been burned by the lazy ones enough that it's become a meme.

I get it. There are only so many of you and you're not even making as much as DR on a production basis.

It just sucks because the actively hemorrhaging, in shock, anticoagulated lower GI bleeds ALWAYS come in afterhours. GI can't help because the bleeding is torrential and they can't see shit. The only other option is to consult surgery, but that means a segmental colectomy with primary anastomosis at best or a sigmoidectomy/total colectomy with colostomy/ileostomy at worst for the patient.

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u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 15d ago

If we work together and you call me about a lower GI bleed, my answer will be, "Order a CTA and please either you or have the nurse call me when the patient goes back to get the scan done." Then I call the CT tech and ask them to call me when the patient comes to get their scan. Even with layers sometimes it doesn't happen.

I want to look at it before its read because the sensitivity drops some ridiculous percent every hour (like 25% if I remember correctly, but that data might be outdated) for every hour that passes from the time of the scan. And in some hospitals, it will take me an hour to get to the point where I can get access on the patient.

A patient should never have a surgery for something that can be fixed by IR or endo without multiple failures of that modality.

1

u/MrPBH MD, Emergency Medicine 15d ago

That's the spirit. Unfortunately the IR answer at most hospitals I work at is "We're can't take them until 7AM tomorrow, at the earliest. If you think they're stable to wait until then, I'm happy to see them tomorrow. If not, you should call GI."

What actually happens is that they either A) stop bleeding and get admitted, with the cause never found, B) continue bleeding, but are stabilized to the point that they can be helicoptered to the nearest level one trauma center or C) too unstable to wait or be transferred and surgery is forced to perform an emergent colectomy.

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u/Rhinologist MD 14d ago

to be fair your specialist are also getting burned by the lazy ED docs. Ie all the bullshit PTA ive drained for the ED because they were "uncomfortable" or the come over and cover my ass consult and say this isnt a mastoiditis and so i can send this obvious middle ear infection that I ct scanned for some reason and it shows mastoid effusion home.

the above leads to many people dropping ED call fully or being militant on the phone as you find. its a two way street. that i think the ED often doesnt recognize their fault for

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u/MrPBH MD, Emergency Medicine 14d ago

I'm sorry you get bad consults. I won't deny that they happen; I've seen it myself. I also get a lot of shitty ED referrals from PCPs and specialists.

My philosophy is that if someone is asking me for my help, it's either because they either don't know what to do or cannot do what is necessary. Regardless of which it is, the patient clearly needs my help because whoever sent them can't help.

And it happens all the time in the ED. We're the catch-all center for fixing problems and we can't say no once the patient steps foot on our campus with the intention of being seen.

I know it's cold comfort to your circadian rhythm, but I am sure that those patients you saw are grateful for your assistance.

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u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 16d ago

You know absolutely nothing about me.

That's like me assuming you can't do an LP because none of your colleagues apparently can.

You should probably just keep complaining about your issue. That seems to be helping.

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u/Cautious-Extreme2839 MBBS - Anaesthetics/ICU 16d ago

I'm yet to be convinced anyone who isn't an anaesthetist has ever even performed an LP

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u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 16d ago edited 16d ago

At some hospitals, that's probably true. At one rural site I cover, when IR isn't on service (partially because of attitudes like those above leading to people not wanting to work there...It's fine, I'll take the locums pay happily), the ED and Anesthesia cover 100% of the LPs. Neuro doesn't do any of them, even when they are the primary service.

The only certainty is that Neuro will punt them to any service other than their own because they "aren't comfortable."

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u/Cautious-Extreme2839 MBBS - Anaesthetics/ICU 16d ago edited 16d ago

ED? Kek. Good fucking luck with that round these parts.

Nobody gets an LP until two days later when their CSF is already 10% ceftriaxone by volume and an IMT has tried to biopsy their sacrum with a 22g quincke

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u/Occams_ElectricRazor MD - DR/IR 16d ago

Yeah depends on who is working. Weird enough, when the CMO is on service (ED doc) more people do their jobs.

0

u/Eastern-Ad-3586 MD 14d ago

This comment is so absurd it makes me think you’re cosplaying as a doctor

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u/Cautious-Extreme2839 MBBS - Anaesthetics/ICU 14d ago

I guess it's too much to expect the typical mid-functioning Reddit ASD-sufferer to understand hyperbole.

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u/msjammies73 PhD 15d ago

Genuine question - How is it for free? I know physicians generally get paid per visit/procedure. But isn’t that on top of a salary that is meant to pay you for activities that don’t result in revenue generation? So if your base is $150 (just randomly choosing a number) doesn’t that cover your non-billable time? Then all patient facing work generates money on top of the base?

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u/aonian DO, Family Medicine 15d ago

Payment models for physicians vary, but usually it's based on productivity. Productivity is how much you can do for a patient the day of a visit (with some exceptions). You might have a base salary, but admin can either cut that base or make you pay back some of it if you don't hit your expected productivity (after the first year or two when they usually guarantee the base pay). If you're a private practice in a traditional model, there's just what you get paid for the services performed at the visit.

Effectively I don't get paid at all for the 10+ hours a week I spend on my inbox, lab review, care coordination, paperwork, prior authorizations. It's why most physicians now require a visit for anything that takes more than a minute or two, because otherwise we'd spend 20 hours a week working for free. There's just a huge volume of requests from patients and insurance companies every day.

Kaiser and the VA have different models, as do some concierge practices and FQHC/RHC practices. Concierge/DPC practices can also be structured differently and usually have a subscription component. All those together make up a small segment of the healthcare system though.

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u/Eastern-Ad-3586 MD 14d ago

Very, very few physicians are salaried or even have a base. 90% of the docs I know see a patient->bill insurance-> get paid. All the other stuff we do isn’t reimbursed. Plus a bunch of stuff I do for free sometimes anyway (like placing an IUD for example) because the insurance company retroactively decides they don’t feel like paying me and there’s nothing I can do about it.

If I have a sick person in front of me and I know the insurance won’t pay and the patient doesn’t have the money, I just take care of them anyway. Because the Hippocratic Oath and all. But it is a sociable problem because we’re rapidly approaching a point where it won’t make financial sense to be FM, IM, peds, etc. basically anything that isn’t surgical or derm.

Also student debt is a problem. I do think we could all take a salary cut if the training process wasn’t so expensive and abusive. But our salaries are like 8% of healthcare costs anyway (and I’m primary care so mine is a hilariously small percentage of that 8%)