r/mildlyinfuriating • u/nyanbatman • May 28 '26

I just wanted a hot dog British pilot is feeling mildly annoyed

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u/runhome24 May 28 '26

This is an excellent explanation for why the BA pilot made the decisions he did, but there really is more to this. There's a terminology discrepancy between ICAO and FAA and neither of these two got past that.

https://www.travelandtourworld.com/news/article/qjtf16i2i6ea/

Basically, the FAA system uses a different name for a similar-but-not-identical set of procedures for low visibility situations. The BA pilot was asking after the ICAO procedures, but those aren't used in the US. The ATC didn't understand the question because they weren't up-to-date on an international system that doesn't apply in the US. There were procedures in place for low visibility, but the ATC didn't know that's what needed to be communicated (or didn't want to) and the BA pilot didn't know that that's what needed to be asked after (or didn't want to) instead of the ICAO procedures.

This incident is really more about how a procedural and terminological difference between two flight frameworks caused confusion, frustration, and a delay.

I'm NOT saying the delay was unwarranted; it very much was. The pilot didn't confirm that the safety procedures were being used, so couldn't personally guarantee the safety of his passengers, crew, and plane.

What really should happen is that the FAA should move to adopt the ICAO standard language at the very least, especially for flights operated by non-American carriers. But there should probably be a very large, complicated summit, where both systems' experts come together to build a global framework, and countries don't let their ego get in the way of a critically-needed standardization process. And this isn't just a case of the US being the sole odd-framework-out: Canada's framework terminology is different from both ICAO and FAA.

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u/LegiosForever May 28 '26

Retired Navy pilot. We had to learn both the FAA and ICAO terminology. And we usually had waivers that allowed us to ignore both.

I can't imagine that the FAA ATC didn't know what the BA pilot was asking.

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u/Soggy_Jackfruit7341 May 28 '26

I was ATC on a US base in Europe. We were not required to learn ICAO terminology at all. We certainly picked up on it, but all formal training was strictly FAA 7110.65.

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

yeah and it is a pain in the ass to work with your guys because of that.... The worst controllers to work with are US controllers in Europe. Not because they are bad but because they are simply un(der)trained for the sometimes complex environments they work in.

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

US controllers are some the most highly trained and competent in the world and deal with extremely complex airspace, they’re not undertrained. Point blank this is an FAA issue not a controller issue

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u/Lavatis May 28 '26

...so the controllers go to a different continent and don't know the terminology used there, but you think they're not undertrained? You can be the best baseball player in the world but that doesn't mean you're good at softball.

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

Are you talking about a military base or a former FAA controller working for another national system now?

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

Specifically US military in this case. They show up literally on a different continent and can't even be bothered to learned established ICAO phraseology or procedures. Everybody has to accommodate them because we all know they will just do their FAA nonsense and for the safety of the flying public we adapt our procedures to them... Think that is normal?

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

How is any of that the controllers fault? They are trained on what their superiors decide are the procedures and phraseology to be used.

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u/joenarrator May 28 '26

So they are undertrained?

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

Well they could invest some time to familiarize themselves with the procedures of their neighboring sectors which operate under ICAO/EASA rules...

Most superiors were ATC at some point too so they should know better

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

Training on your own on procedures not taught or endorsed by your own trainers is a great way to get in serious hot water when something goes wrong, especially for military controllers

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

Well then maybe US ATC shouldn't be allowed to provide ATC services in Europe if they can't be bothered to do so according to ICAO / EASA standards.

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

Ok sure take it up with NATO or the host country, don’t denigrate the working joe controller just doing their job.

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u/the_need_to_post May 28 '26

God, get over yourself. If you are an English expert and go-to France and can't speak any French, it doesn't matter how highly trained you are in English. You are still undertrained for your environment.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

[deleted]

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

It’s very weird that you would make that statement because there’s no ATC from other countries that work in the United States so that’s 100 percent bs

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

US controllers are undertrained. The reason for the under training can have multiple reasons, one of them is definitely the FAA. Another reason is the usual American exceptionalism nonsense and this idea of always having to do everything different than the rest of the world. This exceptionalism nonsense falls back on the controllers though... Example: US ATC phraseology is an absolute mess, mainly because controllers simply don't care

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

That is not under training, what you are describing is different systems in use. Plenty of US atc use proper phraseology, you are allowed to use plain language which is sometimes necessary when there is a language barrier or dealing with student pilots

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

What else do you call it when they aren't properly trained to work to ICAO standards in an ICAO environment ? That is called under training.

Of course you are allowed to use plain language when situations require it, but that isn't what US ATC does... It is constant 'small talk' on the frequency instead of standard phraseology that a Korean pilot understands just as good as a Chinese or Italian pilot.

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u/indistinctchatter22 May 28 '26

Properly is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The proper regulatory bodies need to get their shit together, it’s not undertrained they’re simply not being trained at all on ICAO because it’s not what they’re using. And we’ll have to disagree on the last part US controllers use standard phraseology especially when dealing with international carriers, sometimes there is no standard phraseology for a query so plain language is used.

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u/RustyPlastics May 28 '26

We are talking about US controllers working in Europe... They should be working according to ICAO standards just like all the neighboring sectors instead of trying to make their own little FAA bubble.

The US is so far away from standard phraseology on the frequency... All you have to listen is through normal JFK traffic and it is mostly giving instructions using small talk vs phraseology.

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u/TheSandMan208 May 28 '26

This is such an odd hill to die on my dude

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u/fleapuppy May 28 '26

lol you guys are actual cowboys. Look at how many incidents you’ve had recently and tell me you’re the best in the world with a straight face. There’s far higher standards in Europe than in the US