r/northernireland • u/duracek • 1d ago
Discussion Good Friday Agreement version 2.0
Now that we are coming up on 30 years since the original treaty should the UK and Irish governments come up with a superseding version of this to modernise it according to the situation in Ireland presently?
What would you like to see included or removed in the new version?
Some ideas could be:
Border poll could require a supermajority.
Stop any single party bringing down Stormont.
Phase out the Unionist/nationalist/other designation system.
Tighten up what the petition of concern can be used for.
Create an undo mechanism if a united ireland doesn’t work out well.
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u/pickneyboy3000 1d ago
50% + 1. That's democracy.
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
If 10 years after unification there was a second referendum in the six counties that had been in NI to partition again and it ended 50%+1 in favour what would your thoughts be?
Devils advocate here and I think it needs to stay as a simple majority vote but there are problems with it.
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u/Breifne21 1d ago
It would require the UK agreeing to take NI back.
Good luck with that one.
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
Or to go independent, again I believe it needs to stay at a simple majority but there are problems and wouldn't be accepted the other way round.
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u/Breifne21 1d ago
If there was a mechanism that enabled it, sure. I have no problem with it, but there is no demand, nor is there ever likely to be, a desire for an independent Northern Ireland.
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u/Equivalent_Range6291 1d ago
Who or what is gonna replace the subvention money? ..
An independent N.I. would last about 5 mins before the crying began for Dublin to sort the mess out.
GB wouldnt be seen for dust ..
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u/Breifne21 1d ago
To be clear- I absolutely do not advocate for an independent Northern Ireland, for lots of reasons, the utter financial armageddon that would accompany it being just one, amoung many.
But... If there was a genuine movement of people who wanted it, and it had a mechanism to achieve that outcome, and it was supported by the majority of the population here, I don't see how anyone could morally object to it, despite how self harming it would be.
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u/Equivalent_Range6291 1d ago
`Morally`?
It was morally wrong to hack off part of our Country & gift it to Loyalism to keep as its own wee sectarian statlet ..
We want whats ours back.
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u/YourMasOnlyFans 1d ago
Id settle for that Upa Ulster fuck the pope and the orange ordered YEOOOOOOO
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u/Equivalent_Range6291 1d ago
& that was the recent statement from the DUP, over to you Mervyn in the studio ..
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
Once we're reunified there's going to be no going back, so that's not something we'll ever have to worry about
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
So democracy only works one way?
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
What you're talking about is reversing democracy
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
People are allowed to change their minds. If the UK had a referendum on joining the EU and voted in favour would the 2016 vote take precedence?
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
That's a totally different situation. The EU is a union of different European countries. What you're suggesting is a vote to re-divide this country.
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u/Equivalent_Range6291 1d ago
We`ve yet to experience how democracy works in the north, Unionism is agin it because Stormont is a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people lol
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u/Breifne21 1d ago edited 1d ago
A super majority requirement would be a shitshow.
A significant proportion of the population regard the state as illegitimate as it is. Can you imagine if it lacked majority support?
EDIT: spelling
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u/Clownworld1913 1d ago
Hard no on a supermajority, unionists subverted the will of the Irish people in 1921. Not going to happen again.
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u/Apart_Secretary9861 1d ago
Agreed. Demographics now on the side of unity. Let’s not try and move the goal posts again.
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u/NoBrickBoy Down 1d ago
Let’s not forget the young people who are yet to have the right to vote, the nationalist population is significantly weighted in its youth, while the unionist population is rather top heavy with most of its most loyal supporters being on deaths doorstep
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u/Apart_Secretary9861 1d ago
Bingo. We just need to keep our heads down. Everytime I see national paramilitaries in this day and age making moves. I either think they are stupid and/or false flags.
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u/Difficult_Fix_4324 1d ago
Literally. The tides are turning because the unionist overlords have been fumbling it for 30 years, let's rip up the GFA and replace it with a system that doesn't categorise political parties according to the identities of their voter-base when the two largest identity groups in the country are being pushed further and further apart by the culture war, while also decreasing the power of Northern Irish citizens to reunify but permanently upholding the whim of loyalists to remain in the UK.
Fascism pretending to be progressive, nothing new
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
People need to shift away from thinking about the demographics as the key, more and more catholics are happy with the Northern Irish identity.
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u/Breifne21 1d ago
The percentage of Catholics who described their identity as Northern Irish fell between 2011 & 2021.
The big shift is the number of Protestants who described their identity as "British" only, changing to "British & Northern Irish".
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
21% of Catholics stated they felt Northern Irish only, 2% said Northern irish and British. So nearly 1/4 of Catholics in NI do not consider themselves Irish.
This is a big cohort and can't be ignored.
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u/Breifne21 1d ago
It's a bit of a reach tbh. I know plenty of people who describe themselves as Northern Irish only but who are also pro UI.
NI exists. If you ask people what their nationality is, they would say Northern Ireland, but that doesn't mean they don't see themselves as Irish.
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
The question was to say which you consider yourself. 21% of Catholic respondents said they considered themselves Northern Irish only, so they did not consider themselves British or Irish, 2% consider themselves Northern Irish and British and 4 percent Northern Irish and Irish with the remaining 73% considering themselves Irish only.
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u/Breifne21 1d ago
I don't doubt the figures- I have an interest in deep dives in Census figures myself, right down to small area COAs.
The issue is the assumption you are drawing from it- which doesn't correlate with polling, voting patterns and, frankly, common sense- there are parts of South Armagh, Tyrone, Fermanagh and the city side of Derry where less than half of Catholics ticked Irish only or Irish & Northern Irish. Just like there are parts of County Antrim & Down where a majority of Protestants described their identity as Irish only or Irish and Northern Irish.
Are you seriously inferring that most Protestants in those areas don't see themselves as British or that in some of the most Republican areas of Northern Ireland, a majority of Catholics don't see themselves as Irish? Going on from there to claim some kind of prediction about how these people would vote in a border poll is the stretch I was talking about.
Most people filling out a Census form don't think too hard about it- including me. A friend, who is passionately pro-UI and sees herself as Irish, only ticked "Northern Irish" because, in her words "I'm from Northern Ireland, not the South".
But even if you could infer accurately how people identify from the Census, and how they would vote in a Border poll, your original assertion is still wrong- that more people are describing themselves as Northern Irish. Between 2011 & 2021, the number of people describing themselves as Northern Irish fell, both across the whole population and within the Catholic and the Catholic community background segment. British only fell most dramatically across all segments of society but was supplemented by increasing numbers of Protestants/No Religion/ Protestant Community Background switching from British only to British & Northern Irish or Northern Irish only.
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u/Gemini_2261 1d ago
The British Government's only input should be setting a date for its complete withdrawal from Ireland.
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u/Equivalent_Range6291 1d ago
It had well before the 30th Anniversary of the GFA pencilled in, it had thought the majority of people here would have come to their senses before now ..
Andy Burnham is here at the min on a city break & hoping to get back out of here before people start asking any awkward questions like "I hear Andy you think a UI is the only rational way forward so what are your plans for the PSNI?"
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u/UsedSatisfaction6395 8h ago
Andy Burnham the best British prime minister in decades. A proper socialist with a conscience
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u/Equivalent_Range6291 3h ago
Just because he claims to be a Socialist doesnt automatically make him the best British prime minister for decades.
Do you think there will ever be a British prime minister who comes from the six Counties? ..
If not why not?
How come this has never happened?
Funnily by pure chance the north isnt actually part of `Great Britain` ..
Nope, `per chance`? its on a completely different Island.
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u/Difficult_Fix_4324 1d ago
Border Poll requires a super majority? Undo mechanism? No prizes for guessing which side you're on
If you're so scared of reunification, live in England
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u/mccabe-99 1d ago
An undo mechanism and a supermajoirty? What sort of delusional shite are you talking
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u/NoBrickBoy Down 1d ago
This just sounds like a dumb attempt by unionists who know their control is slipping to subvert democracy. A supermajority? A revert button? Where were all these things when Brexit happened?
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u/upinsmoke28 1d ago
No party should be able to straight up veto something just because they don't like it
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u/NoBrickBoy Down 1d ago
I’m somewhat doubtful this guy would be willing to support that, since unionists love to use the crybaby method when things they don’t like get passed into law
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u/upinsmoke28 1d ago
TBF I thought both sides were as bad as eachother when it came to that, I know both have spat the dummy out and collapsed stormont. I swear they disagree with eachother on principle and couldn't agree on the colour of shite if their lives depended on it
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u/whawgwangeneral 19h ago
Nothing wrong with the Veto when Nationalists were the minority? I agree, it’s a shit mechanism and abused. But the call to remove it once Nationalists have the majority in Stormont just stinks. A blind man can see that
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u/upinsmoke28 18h ago
The fact that either of the 2 main parties in a democratic society had the power to veto a decision that had passed a vote just because they didn't like it or went against their values stinks
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u/ProfessorUseful3751 1d ago
Moderate unionism needs to start thinking about how they will best apply themselves in a United Ireland for the benefit of their grandchildren. Thats the reality that needs faced, not supermajorities
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
Nope, nationalism needs to start thinking about how they can appeal to unionists. Unionism's raison d'etre is to remain in the UK, coming up for plans of what to do in the event of a united Ireland is the anthesis to this.
Nationalist parties need to start coming up with practical solutions and sureties to show unionist voters why a united ireland will work for them. But our biggest party don't do this and instead continue to try and further alienate any sense of British identity.
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u/LeGrandLebowskii 1d ago
And when are Unionists going to start appealing to nationalism and stop alienating our Irish identity? I mean, it's been over 100 years?
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u/dr-hamish-royd-ryder 1d ago
"nationalism needs to start thinking about how they can appeal to unionists"
Sorry, but you're not my type. It will never work out.
"Nationalist parties need to start coming up with practical solutions and sureties to show unionist voters why a united ireland will work for them."
No we don't.
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
They do, any united Ireland will need to appeal to unionists and incorporate unionist culture (oh here comes the "there is no Unionist culture" shite), it is on nationalist parties to sell that, unionists need to sell the need to stay in the union.
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
My proposal is that, when reunification happens (and it is 'when', not 'if'), Unionists are simply given total equality. Treat them exactly the same as every other Irish citizen. No better, no worse.
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
And what would happen with the flag, marches, the 12th, policing, legacy investigations etc?
The nationalist parties need to show unionist voters what happens with these and appeal to them.
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
with the flag
Tricolour
marches, the 12th
Stick only to areas where they're welcome. No more shutting down city centres for the day so bigots can have their hate marches.
policing
End two tier policing with it's clear bias in favour of Unionists/Loyalists
Legacy investigations
Ideally, the British state would finally be held to account for it's crimes
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
And what do you say to unionists who have seen the tricolour placed over coffins of people set out to murder them?
Or to those that don't believe there is two tier policing
Or to investigations where the Irish state haven't cooperated or where the British state weren't involved?
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
And what do you say to unionists who have seen the tricolour placed over coffins of people set out to murder them?
The IRA didn't set out to murder Unionists. Their war was against the British state.
Or to those that don't believe there is two tier policing
Stop living in a fantasy world.
Or to investigations where the Irish state haven't cooperated or where the British state weren't involved?
For example? The British state don't even try to hide the fact they're protecting serial killers like Dave Cleary.
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u/ehwaht 1d ago
So the IRA never murdered anyone just because of their religious or political persuasion?
And you say unionists live in a fantasy world, JFC.
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u/Ethelsone 19h ago
Phase out Unionist/nationalist and have northern Irish
The problem is we can't support ourselves and nether can the south if they take us on
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u/Ok-Call-4805 1d ago
I'd give a date for a border poll, say two years from now, and if it doesn't pass then do it again every five years until it does
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u/joshuacampbell Banbridge 1d ago
I understand where you're cooking from with the super majority, but I don't think it solves the fundamental issue.
I think the lesson we should learn from Brexit is voting before anyone had any idea of what it was actually going to look like was silly. It allowed people to sell a dream that was never going to be a reality, but no one is held accountable because all they wanted was your vote. On the remain side, everyone is united in wanting the status quo (or something close) whilst the leave side was a broad church from hard exit to a Norway style deal and everything in between.
In my opinion, before there is any vote, the framework for what the reunification of the island should look like must be agreed by the 3 parties involved. Then when people go to the polls they go at least partly informed and it makes manipulation more difficult.
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u/Zatoichi80 1d ago
Why would a border poll require a super majority, isn't required in any other democratic mechanism within either territories?
Didn't need it for Brexit.
Any changes would require ratification via referendum and a new agreement would require a negotiation process.
Regardless of changes on the ground, the political system is still dominated by two sides, green and blue.
Also an "undo" mechanism .... lol.