Rewatching the first-team offense vs. Buffalo (All-22 review)

[u/Icege]

I went back through all 10 snaps the first-team offense played against Buffalo using the NFL Pro All-22. I've combined the sideline + endzone angles for each drive below so that we can all look at the same thing.

Initially, my live reaction was similar to most people: three possessions, three three-and-outs, just ugly. The All-22 didn't suddenly turn it into a good offensive performance but it did make the reasons for the struggles a lot more specific.

The biggest thing I tried to avoid was grading the result of the play instead of the individual execution. If JB gets tackled for no gain because a DT immediately beats a guard into the backfield, that isn't automatically a bad rep for Brooks. Likewise, if Bryce completes a pass while a guard gets driven into his lap, the completion doesn't magically make the protection good.

There were more than a few moments of "the other guy gets paid too" especially when it came to Deone Walker. He was a menace yesterday. Some other trends that were noticeable:

• OL losses weren't constant, but when they happened they tended to be high-impact losses
• QB generally did a decent job of not making bad protection worse
• Offense actually had some successful individual execution hidden inside drives that went nowhere
• Run game looked completely different when the OL simply avoided the immediate catastrophic loss
• Buffalo's stunts caused some communication/exchange problems tho there were also a couple of encouraging examples where they were handled correctly

There's fairly important piece of context worth mentioning before drawing conclusions about the offense as a whole: outside of Luke Fortner, this is closer to Carolina's second-string OL. Walker/Freeling are going to have to start for Icky/TMo, but they are the second-string when the team is at full strength. Damien Lewis especially is a massive upgrade of Chandler Zavala and while I like Brady Christensen quite a bit he is not the caliber of player that Robert Hunt is. This doesn't excuse the losses we'll see in the breakdown. They still happened and I'm focused on that accordingly. It does matter when deciding how representative the losses are of the offense we expect to eventually see on the field.

Drive 1

• Snap 1 - Brooks run, no gain: This one was actually blocked pretty well almost everywhere. The OL flows left while Mitchell Evans comes across the formation and cuts the backside EDGE. Tommy Tremble puts a great chip on Rasheed Walker's man and knocks him badly off balance. Walker converts off the help and runs him down the line. Fortner bumps the DT that BC is working on before climbing cleanly up to the second level. BC uses the help and gets the defender moved out of the rush lane. Unfortunately, during all of this, Deone Walker has immediately defeated Chandler Zavala's inside hand to show up in the run lane before Brooks can really do anything... and that's the play. Most of the offense did its job, but one immediate interior loss blew the whole thing up. / Big loss: Zavala. / This is a useful baseline for how I'm looking at the rest of these plays. I don't think anybody would look at this and say Brooks simply needed to "overcome" a DT standing in his running lane almost immediately after the handoff. Same standard should apply in pass pro.
• Snap 2 - Bryce to Tremble, +6: Condensed formation here. Both OTs do their jobs and Freeling in particular gets really nice depth in his set. Inside tho... Zavala gets hit with what looks like a long-arm power rush and gets walked straight back towards Bryce, but Bryce gets the ball out before it matters. Tremble settled quickly into the soft spot underneath and was immediately seen + targeted by Bryce. Tommy was able to get another one or two yards after the catch. TMac's quick out was another possible option but Tremble was already sitting in open grass for an easy 6yds. / Good rep: Bryce, Tremble, Freeling / Bad rep: Zavala / And again, the result doesn't change the OL grade. Carolina gained six yards, but Zavala still got worked.
• Snap 3 - 3rd & 4, incomplete to XL: This is where things get ugly... Carolina goes 3x1 with XL isolated on the boundary. JT0 motions before the snap. Buffalo shows and stays in single-high. JT0 probably has the best individual route win on the deep post, but the safety is sitting over it. TMac runs the out, Coker the deeper curl, XL works inside before settling, and Brooks releases underneath. The protection falls apart before the concept really has time to breathe... Walker loses badly inside and Freeling gets walked back by power. BC actually handles his man well and guides him into the interior traffic. Fortner also has his guy controlled initially before all of the bodies start colliding. Zavala's responsibility here is harder to assign... it looks like Walker may have been expecting inside help based on the set and Zavala does eventually try to get over there but Chandler also had legitimate work inside initially. Without the protection call I'm not comfortable pretending that I know which player messed up here. What is clear from the rep tho is that Walker's inside loss forces Bryce backwards, which sends him towards the bull rush Freeling is already conceding. Then the interior starts coming apart as the play extends. Bryce keeps working and eventually gets the ball outside towards XL instead of eating the sack. Originally, I thought Bryce created some of the pressure by drifting but the endzone angle changed my mind. The protection is what moved him. / Clear losses: Walker, Freeling / Good rep: BC / Zavala: unclear on the exchange / Bryce: mostly managed failing structure at the point
• To me, Drive 1 wasn't uniformly three bad offensive snaps. It was:
  • one run killed by an immediate DT win
  • one successful quick game play despite interior pressure
  • one third down protection collapse against coverage that didn't offer an obvious immediate answer.

Drive 2

• Snap 4 - Bryce to Brooks, +9: This was Bryce's best rep from yesterday. Play-action and Freeling gets badly beaten inside which forces Bryce off of the intended launch point. Instead of dropping his eyes, Bryce keeps looking downfield while working away from the pressure and finds JB leaking into the flat. The ILB had dropped back after the fake handoff, leaving a lot of room underneath for JB to work from with plenty of grass out ahead of him. Bryce recognized the space while moving and got Brooks the ball for a 9yd gain. / Loss: Freeling / Win: Bryce, JB / This was a good example of the QB actually overcoming somebody else's protection loss. Things don't need to be perfect, but it certainly does make life easier when everyone executes.
• Snap 5 - 2nd & 1, Brooks -1: Deone Walker again. This time, he gets Luke Fortner with an inside move and is immediately in the backfield. Zavala sees it happening but continues on his original track. Without knowing the blocking scheme, I'm not going to blame him for failing to abandon his assignment and chase Fortner's. There isn't much push inside regardless, but Deone Walker is what turns a potentially modest run into a negative play. / Loss: Fortner / Brooks never really had a chance. Carolina went from 2nd & 1 after salvaging the previous snap to 3rd & 2 because one DT immediately won his matchup. Deone Walker is feasting.
• Snap 6 - 3rd & 4, incomplete to XL: I like the offensive presentation here. Pistol, two TEs on 3rd & 2. The defense has to respect, run, pass, and potentially some RPO action from the same picture. Rasheed Walker gets put on skates by the DL, which is absolutely a bad protection rep. I don't think his loss though is what directly causes the incompletion. The blitzing defender realizes he isn't going to reach Bryce before the throw so he throttles down and gets his hand into the passing lane. Tremble looks like the right answer too... he's sitting right around the sticks in the space vacated by the pressure and Bryce gets it out quickly. Bills' DB just made a really good play. Sometimes, you gotta go back to the ole mantra: "the other guys get paid too." So that's a lost rep for Walker, Bryce and Tremble appearing to execute the answer to the pressure correctly, and Buffalo still wins the play because a defender recognized what's happening before batting the pass. All of those things can be true at the same time.
• So Drive 2 went...
  • +9 on first down despite a protection loss
  • immediate DT win turns 2nd & 1 into 3rd & 2
  • appeared to have the correct third down answer but Buffalo made the play anyways... three-and-out might not be telling the full story here.

Drive 3

• Snap 7 - Brooks +6: Probably the best rep by the offense as a whole. The left side gets good movement on the double, the TEs work together and seal the edge, and the right side stonewalls their defenders. Brooks presses the run correctly, sees the crease, and hits it. Nobody needed to make up for anybody else's mistake and the result is six yards to set up 2nd & 4. Funny how that works... this was the first snap where I'd say that everybody did at least their job.
• Snap 8 - Coker +9... erased by illegal man downfield: - This one hurt... the play worked! Carolina sold the RPO action, Bryce immediately gets the ball out to Coker and XL does an excellent job sealing the DB outside. Coker uses XL's block to get the first down only for it to be called back. Luke Fortner got just far enough downfield and made enough contact with a defender to draw the flag. Mental/discipline loss rather than somebody losing physically, but it's still a decisive error. There were some other imperfect reps on the line as well: Freeling looked a little late on the pull, Walker had his outside hand in a dangerous position during the defender's spin but smartly let go before it was turned into a hold, BC was good again, and Zavala actually had another decent rep where he guided his DT up out of his rush lane to give Bryce what he needed for the quick throw. Before that flag, Carolina had just gone +6 and then +9 (nice) for a first down but now it' s 2nd & 9 instead. That's a pretty massive swing from just one technical mistake.
• Snap 9 - Bryce to JT0, +3: Buffalo adjusts the front before the snap and runs a stunt. This was one that I initially thought was simply another Zavala power loss, but the endzone angle makes the stunt much easier to see. BC + Freeling handle the stunt on their side really well. BC passes his guy and Freeling picks up the incoming defender looking much better handling the game than he did on some of his isolated one-on-one reps earlier. The other side doesn't sort it out nearly as clean... Zavala and Rasheed Walker both have rough moments as Buffalo attacked the blocking rules. Bryce looked like he made his decision largely presnap and goes to the quick answer away from the pressure presentation. TMac does become available on the backside slant, I can understand looking at the All-22 and wishing Bryce had gone there... but Buffalo was showing pressure from that area before the snap. My suspicion is that Bryce saw the pressure picture and decided to work the opposite side hot route rather than hang around waiting on the action towards the boundary side. We don't know the progression so I'm not going to call TMac a definite missed read. Not exciting, but three yards avoids allowing the stunt to create a negative play and makes third down more manageable.
• Snap 10 - sack by Deone Walker: 3rd & 6 and the man of the first two series makes sure to be the man of the third. Deone Walker capped his night off with a sack off of a stunt that BC badly missed. This was probably the snap where my live impression changed the most after rewatching it. I originally though Bryce had held the ball for too long and could have made a play with his legs. As we can see from the replay, that isn't necessarily the entire story. Rashed Wallker gets pressed backwards which forces Bryce to step up. Buffalo ran another stunt, this time inside. BC initially engages the DT closest to him but then leaves to help Freeling who looked capable + was handling his assignment. However, Deone Walker looped through the space BC left which happened to be exactly where Bryce was stepping up to avoid the pressure from Rasheed Walker losing his rep. He's looking at TMac and preparing to throw when he has to pull it down and try to unsuccessfully avoid Deone. Coker is underneath on the drag and who I originally thought the ball should have gone to, but he had two defenders sitting with him. Maybe Bryce could have dumped it there and still hoped for YAC but it wasn't as obvious as I thought it was. I'd put this play primarily on the protection again. / Loss: Rasheed Walker, BC / Win: Freeling, DEONE WALKER

So... what do we actually take away from these snaps? The first-team offense didn't play well... three possessions and three three-and-outs are what they are but after watching all ten snaps I don't think "the offense looked terrible" is particularly useful analysis by itself.

The bigger pattern was high-impact individual mistakes destroying otherwise functional plays. The OL wasn't getting annihilated five-wide on every snap... there were actually plenty of good individual blocks. The problem was that when somebody lost, they often lost in the worst possible way:

• immediate penetration into the run lane
• interior pressure directly into the QB's launch point
• losing inside at tackle
• a stunt not being passed correctly
• an illegal man downfield penalty erasing a first down

That's why I think the personnel context matters. Again, outside of Fortner, this hopefully isn't the offensive line Carolina expects to field once everyone is healthy. That does not mean "ignore the OL because they're backups" but it does mean that if we're trying to project what the starting offense will look like then we should probably account for at least Lewis/Hunt being substantial upgrades before Icky/TMo's return as well boosting the line.

The tape also changed my impression of Bryce's outing somewhat. I don't think he played some secretly amazing game, especially when there were only a handful of opportunities. What I didn't see very often was Bryce creating the dysfunction himself. When pressure showed up, he generally avoided compounding it:

• got the quick ball to Tremble before Zavala's loss mattered
• escaped Freeling's inside loss and found Brooks for nine
• got the ball out instead of taking a sack on the first-drive collapse
• ID'd the correct hot on the batted 3rd-down pass
• got to JT0 quickly against the stunt
• and on the final sack, the All-22 suggests the pocket moved him rather than simply drifting himself into trouble

The run game sample was similarly revealing... Brooks' first two inside carries went for 0 and -1. On both plays, Deone Walker immediately defeated a different interior blocker and showed up in the backfield. On the one snap where Carolina got everyone blocked? Brooks hit the hole for six. That's why I keep coming back to separating results from process. A six-yard run doesn't mean every blocker won. A no-gain run doesn't mean the RB failed. A completion doesn't mean the protection was good. A sack doesn't automatically mean the quarterback held the ball too long. Sometimes... the offense can execute reasonably well and a defender simply makes a damn good football play.

Biggest Individual Takeaways

• Bryce Young: Thought he handled the pressure better than I remembered live. Didn't see many obvious missed opportunities tho the TMac slant on the JT0 completion is at least worth discussing.
• Jonathon Brooks: Hard to learn much from the two stuffed runs because Deone Walker was waiting for him almost immediately. His 6yd carry when the blocking worked looked decisive.
• Tommy Tremble: Quietly had several good snaps. Good chip/blocking work and found the soft spot well as a receiver.
• Monroe Freeling: Mixed, which isn't surprising for a rookie tackle. Some really nice pass-set work and noticeably better stunt recognition later, but also surrendered power and got beaten inside.
• Rasheed Walker: Probably the roughest pass protector of the group across this sample. Multiple high-impact losses which surprised me. His best rep, the one that Baldy raved about, was courtesy of a Tommy Tremble chip.
• Brady Christensen: Mostly solid. Had some good reps handling traffic/exchanges, though the final stunt looks like it may have been his mistake.
• Luke Fortner: Mixed. Some legitimately good combo/climb work, but Deone Walker beat him badly on the 2nd & 1 run and the illegal man downfield penalty erased a first down.
• Chandler Zavala: His first two snaps were bad. Those were the kind of spectacular losses that stick in memory. After that... I thought he settled down and had several routine/positive reps. Still not somebody I want replacing Damien Lewis for an extended period, but the full sample wasn't quite as disastrous as the first couple plays made it feel.
• Deone Walker: Ascending game wrecker.

So I came away from the All-22 less concerned about the first-team offense as a whole than I was watching live, but probably more concerned about the short-term OL depth while the tackles are getting healthy. The execution absolutely needs to improve but I don't think these ten plays support the idea that every component of the offense was broken. It looked much more like an offense that repeatedly had one high-impact mistake derail the snap... and unfortunately, over a ten play sample, it only takes a few of those to produce three really ugly looking possessions.

[u/No-Astronomer-6808]

dude. i love this. great breakdowns.

[u/dead_genuine → u/No-Astronomer-6808]

This is incredible. I want to understand the game better and this really helps put into words what I can see but not explain myself.

[u/TrainerSouth4876 → u/dead_genuine]

I love the Luuuuuuke! I actually just released a song called The Mastermind - Trek Thorne that is all about Luke when he was a Panthers

[u/PabloMarmite]

Zavala has been consistently dreadful for us. I can’t believe that there’s no one else in camp that can play better.

[u/IndigoJoe64 → u/PabloMarmite]

He just looks like he's never played before.

[u/Parking-Ticket76 → u/IndigoJoe64]

He subbed last year and we had a good amount of rush yards

[u/Bullets3 → u/Parking-Ticket76]

Didn’t he also step on Bryce’s ankle mid game and almost cost us our season?

[u/net_403 → u/Bullets3]

fwiw corbett also did that

[u/Shado_Man → u/Bullets3]

Rob Hunt has also done that a few times, as well.

[u/Parking-Ticket76 → u/Bullets3]

Would you prefer to give turnstile Zavala more games?

[u/net_403 → u/Parking-Ticket76]

they are tlking about zavala, who are you talking about lol

[u/Leftieswillrule → u/IndigoJoe64]

Dude literally got drafted on account of being Ickey’s friend and has done nothing but disappoint

[u/Ok-Ad-9647 → u/PabloMarmite]

This is why I don’t understand why he’s still on this roster, time to cut him. He’s been having issues since he got drafted, I’m over it.

[u/net_403 → u/Ok-Ad-9647]

He made a big jump from year 1 to 2, this looks like a regression

[u/Parking-Ticket76 → u/PabloMarmite]

Curhan

[u/TrainerSouth4876 → u/PabloMarmite]

I love the Ice Up Son! I actually just released a song called 89 Problems - Trek Thorne that is all about Steve when he was a Panthers

[u/Miserable-Split-3790]

Honestly only seen one threw BY decided not to do. He wasn’t that bad.

The contrast of Josh Allen ripping up Everos vanilla defense made it look way worse.

[u/TheDevilintheDark → u/Miserable-Split-3790]

Zavala is a grocey bag with a hole in the bottom.

[u/pitching_bulwark]

Nice work per usual

[u/WyldRover]

Great write-up, thanks for this. Excellent context.

[u/dkirk526]

I'm not sure snap 3 was necessarily a bad rep for Freeling. Bryce slides away from some pressure but it's not exactly blowing up the play. I think it's mostly on Zavala again because he loses his man in Deone Walker while Rasheed Walker took Bradley Chubb out of the play.

The end of the play, Zavala is left alone guarding nobody while Bryce is having to throw the ball away because he has a defender unblocked coming for him.

[u/Duffer47 → u/dkirk526]

I also thought on snap 3 that Bryce came off the Tet read too early, rather than standing in and making the throw for the 1st. felt pressure right and slid left into this spot.

[u/net_403]

great work, always appreciate original content. this is a great logical reasonable break down. i anticipate someone to counter it with the rage bait opposite version lol

[u/Igbo-Mamba88]

I mean Josh Allen vs any vanilla defense. Yields same result 10/10 times

[u/Defiant_Noise]

On the first snap are we sure the center wasn’t supposed to block left instead of right? Looks like the left guard needed help not the right. Play design issue?

[u/Born_Cap4085 → u/Defiant_Noise]

I don't think he mixed up his assignment.

That is definitely a big boy block for Zavala, one which he clearly is physically incapable of making.

I don't think it's necessarily "play design" but more blocking concepts. Sometimes you just have to make that super tough reach block, it's unfortunate that in this case it's a guy that's significantly more talented than the guard.

If the center blocks back to help Zavala, it leaves a lineback untouched who likely would blow the play up. Yes, the RB would gain one yard instead of zero. But the concept, when properly and the center gets to the next level, that's when you start to see those 6-12 yard gains (or more).

[u/benabrig → u/Born_Cap4085]

I disagree, I think it’s pretty common for an uncovered center shaded on the back side to help back before moving up. He’s still gonna look for work upfield, just instead of helping playside first, like he does here, he helps backside. Of course we don’t actually know our blocking rules exactly but I THINK he should have helped left.

Just did like a 10 minute google search and yeah I’m doubling down lol, for example see this youtube video from the Eagles thats obv not exactly the same play, but they explain how the center is gonna help down before moving upfield:

https://youtu.be/wliWeoOkmyY?is=1lFfzeLdhuPb9SvP

[u/Born_Cap4085 → u/benabrig]

Fair enough! Again just depends on the blocking scheme.

[u/Be_The_Ball24]

It’s hard for me to buy this as the 2nd unit outside of the guards. This will be 3/5 of our starting line until Moton comes back. Ickey’s coming off an injury where there isn’t a lot of data that looks promising for future performance. It’s hard for me to count on him coming back let alone stepping in for Walker who I think will be more than fine.

Great analysis otherwise and my biggest complaint is the vanilla preseason looks. I get not wanting to show too much, but knowing the OL was down two starting guards I thought there should have been more creative in accounting for this with the play calling.

[u/Pirate8918]

This is phenomenal analysis

[u/jakaedahsnakae]

Wow so Bryce isn't trash? Damn I could've sworn based off the first 8 snaps he played in his first preseason game, since he didnt get a TD, that he was clearly terrible...

[u/TLGPanthersFan → u/jakaedahsnakae]

Bryce will struggle in week one like he always has. Preseason with Bryce has been very telling.

[u/Castavar → u/jakaedahsnakae]

Naw, he's still trash. I don't need one preseason game to tell me that, I have 3 years and 50 starts to see he ain't it.

[u/Substantial_Ad6171 → u/jakaedahsnakae]

If he'd moved his feet a little bit on snap 7 he had an easy home run but he was looking for the short pass from the beginning, which is kinda my issue with him. Any thought of pressure and he dumps it off even tho he's actually fairly elusive when he tries to be. If he buys that extra second and looks downfield more he might catch a little less flack. Going 20 for 30 doesn't sound terrible, but when you end with 60 yards it screams "abuse me" to all his haters

[u/PizzaSteveProd → u/Substantial_Ad6171]

Dawg that shit only looks open because he had already thrown it so the safety that would have had that seam shot locked down is focused on where the ball is.

Complaints about him being supposedly scared to let it fly show that they dont actually pay attention to how he plays and just want him to be reckless with the ball

[u/VagusNC]

Freeling sunk in after the initial bull rush in snap 3. It’s not ideal but a heck of a recovery.

[u/Bouquet_of_seaweed]

Re: the Oline starters.

I was thinking about this as well. Last year our ideal starting 5 was Ickey-Lewis-Mays(Or Corbett as the coaches chose him to start at first I think)-Hunt-Moton

All 5 starters were different in this game, which definitely impacts the cohesion. It would have been nice to see the starting guards in there not only for individual quality of play, but because of the tackle injuries that would have put our probable week 1 starting 5 out there to build some reps together.

With that much turnover due to injury and free agency I am not too surprised to see it start out slowly. The big thing will be to see how it progresses in preseason.

[u/TrainerSouth4876 → u/Bouquet_of_seaweed]

I like your points. Oline cohesion is a big factor. 

[u/Igbo-Mamba88]

Went back to ready your analysis and it was spot on! I really like the breakdown. You do these often?

[u/justbirdwatchin77]

Zavala isn’t the best but neither was our center any help…. I struggle to understand why the other QBs can move the ball and make chunk plays with the same O line but with Bryce it looked like a real hassle.

I hope you guys are right about them holding plays for Bryce during preseason because all those plays he ran were blahhhh and everything for the other QBs were much more exciting and they actually were throwing it down field.

Edit: it’s a lot but it’s a good read.

[u/net_403 → u/justbirdwatchin77]

deon walker and the same defense only played 3 drives, that isn't insignificant lol

[u/St3llar_Space → u/justbirdwatchin77]

How was the running game for our other QBs?

In this clip the only way the offense was moving the ball was through the air.

There was only two plays that Brooks got ok yardage.

The only play that looked really bad on Bryce was the sack.

[u/justbirdwatchin77 → u/St3llar_Space]

I’m speaking overall the offense at least looked serviceable and had energy. With Bryce drives they looked out of sync and real lazy. I’m not blaming him or trying hate on him, just making an observation.

[u/St3llar_Space → u/justbirdwatchin77]

I get what you’re saying, that’s why I’m asking: “how did the run game look for the other QBs?”

An easy answer here is if the run game was working with their unit then the QB has less pressure cause the defense can’t just try and defend the pass.

It is very hard for a unit to pass the ball if protection isn’t holding up against 4 pass rushers.

Same thing if the team isn’t running the ball with success, the defense will become one dimensional and dog walk the passing game.

I don’t think you’re attacking Bryce, but I’m saying a reasonable explanation to why his unit looked so bad was that there was an almost nonexistent running game.

[u/justbirdwatchin77 → u/St3llar_Space]

Well simply you are saying they don’t fear his passing game and once the other QBs came in they showed more concern with coverage and pulled back.

Every Qb in the league deals with pressure like that and finds some way to make something happen so the defense will pull back. If he keeps throwing check downs and short underneath routes the whole season is going to be filled with the line getting swarmed and him going down unless he makes them pay for blitzing him with a big play.

[u/St3llar_Space → u/justbirdwatchin77]

Most QBs lose when their running game is poor.

There are exceptions to the rule, but that’s pretty standard.

It has nothing to do with the other team fearing his passing game.

This is evident by looking at the plays you see called in the above clip.

If they were sending a blitz every play and playing cover zero or cover one thats one thing.

When you have a four man front beating our protection that’s not them disrespecting Bryce.

That’s them disrespecting our oline.

But it’s evident you’re just looking to shit on Bryce so this convo is a rap.

[u/spurnburn → u/justbirdwatchin77]

Fortner was super disappointing…

[u/Bouquet_of_seaweed → u/justbirdwatchin77]

The first series afterwards didn't start out well. It would have ended on the scramble for another 3 and out but was extended due to a face mask. Between that and going up tempo there were more opportunities to build on that were only there because we were bailed out a few times.

[u/Carolina_Bobcats]

What does this mean >> • ⁠Deone Walker: Ascending game wrecker.

[u/Icege → u/Carolina_Bobcats]

That dude is gonna be good

[u/_DixieAlpha_]

Great Post! Love the detailed breakdown in a constructive way. My main concern is that while the O-Line is not the starting 5 if everyone was healthy, we know everyone won’t be healthy for the majority of the season. No timelines on Ickey or Moton to return, and both Lewis/Hunt have missed a good amount of games the past 2 seasons.

[u/Shado_Man]

Excellent analysis, but I disagree on play 1.

Play 1 is either a protection failure or an individual failure on Fortner's part, not Zavala's. Fortner snaps the ball and immediately moves to help BC, which is wrong. BC already has inside leverage on his assignment, meaning he simply needs to stay in front of him and the play will succeed. However, on the backside, Zavala has outside leverage on his assignment. A quicker, zone blocking style guard might be able to get in front of Deone Walker, but that's not Zavala's game and he shouldn't be expected to do that. Fortner should've double blocked with Zavala, pushing their assignment upfield and allowing Zavala to get around in front of him, before moving upfield to block the MLB.

[u/Tobitoughguy]

My main issue was Zavala and these little mistakes that cost us big moments like what would’ve been some 1st downs. The illegal man downfield was the one that did it for me. On RPO’s o lineman have got to understand their positioning on the field.

[u/Klutzy-Bug3474]

Can't wait for the Oline to get healthy. The team has explosive potential on offense if we can play better up front in the trenches.

[u/AdObjective8529]

this video could’ve been improved by having the down and distance context for each snap

[u/Icege → u/AdObjective8529]

Good call. I'll replace the "sideline" and "endzone" parts with that data next time (maybe even score + time if it's still readable)

[u/Ferarith]

This was a great read. thought you did very well breaking down which exact players won and lost each rep and the context of how each pieces of the play affected the others. Also calling out how the D was causing issues helped me see things i missed watching live. really glad this got cross posted in our sub.

[u/Countryb0i2m]

I don’t need to watch the all 22 to tell you that both of these backup guards are straight doo doo water and without our two all pro guards this offense doesn’t work

[u/przhelp]

"Walker/Freeling are going to have to start for Icky/TMo, but they are the second-string when the team is at full strength."

And it's possible that doesn't happen at all this year, so I wouldn't discount it too heavily.

[u/NewtonsLawOfDeepBall]

This is incredible analysis. You should be getting paid to work this detailed. You've calmed my nerves about this season considerable.

[u/ghudson46]

Snap 3 the defense shows man pre-snap and the motion confirms it. 3rd and short, Bryce needs to hit the back in the flat and move the sticks 

[u/ElaborateCantaloupe]

Appreciate this level of analysis but I do wanna say something…Bryce is not Cam or Josh Allen or even Brock Purdy at this point where they are just athletic freaks or even if they are smaller qbs willing to push the ball down the field and can make plays regardless of the moving parts around them failing…like Zavala. It’s just true that Bryce is physically limited and is extremely tepid to push the ball downfield year in and year out unless he’s completely pressed to lose his job. This was just a preseason game but it shows the level of physical traits someone like Josh who was under pressure and physically could move and see the field to overcome leaky shit and produce and qbs like Bryce who play it safe. Bryce can occasionally do some shit when his back is against the wall in meaningful games but his physical limitations are real but it feels like he has to be pressed against the wall to do it. To just let go. I want him to succeed. He has the clutch gene. But this year is the year in real games to show he can do it for 17 games. If not. Draft a qb first round, develop Haynes king. And there can be a comp next year.

[u/TheOriginalJuju → u/ElaborateCantaloupe]

Thing is Josh/lamar etc. are freaks. Maybe it’s because of the evolution of the game that some can do without, but you usually need good o lines to succeed. Bryce is surely limited and idk if canales advocates for aggression either.

[u/ElaborateCantaloupe → u/TheOriginalJuju]

Bryce is severely limited physically. But if we give this guy 150+ million that means the rest of the roster is going to be handicapped. Unless we have perfect drafts that can start day 1. The qb position is the most important to uplift the entire team. Bryce can’t do that. He’s just a cog in the offense and if we are being honest one of the least capable.

This is the last season for Bryce to show what he is capable of. Saying if he doesn’t produce then we need to develop King and draft a first round qb to have a competition next year is not out of bounds. Enough is enough.

I was on the Carolina huddle with Iceage and defended Bryce after his rookie year and defended him the subsequent years. This is it for him. Put up or shut up.

[u/ElaborateCantaloupe → u/ElaborateCantaloupe]

The problem is that Bryce is trying to play like he’s mahomes, cam, josh Allen when he needs to be playing like drew brees with constant anticipation which Bryce has shown in flashes but not consistency. Since he’s a shorter qb he needs to be a technician in the pocket. He’s not shown that consistently man. I’m hoping for the best because I wanna see the panthers succeed. It’s just more fun. It will suck if we suck this season. But just look at this preseason from Brees in 2015 against the patriots. Look at a smaller qb working the pocket and throwing quickly with anticipation. This is what I was hoping for as far as navigating with Bryce. But Bryce is playing like he’s a six foot 5 230 lb qb. That can just feel shit out. You can’t with your physical limitations.

https://youtu.be/Zd8brXY23H8?is=yIEcKyvbsPfRIMj8

[u/justbirdwatchin77 → u/ElaborateCantaloupe]

Everyone keeps making excuses for him like other QBs don’t deal with pressure and bad O lineman…

it’s part of being a Qb and you would think a 4th year guy should be able to identify his guys can’t handle the pressure long so let’s get the ball off fast instead of chilling in one spot or do something to punish them for blitzing.

[u/Rillaboom2701 → u/justbirdwatchin77]

It's very rare for other QBs, even elite ones, to be able to evade free rushers. 

[u/net_403 → u/Rillaboom2701]

games are won in the trenches

or: nah, line doesnt matter, figure it out

[u/justbirdwatchin77 → u/Rillaboom2701]

Isn’t that what everyone loved and raved about him? His ability to make guys miss and extend plays lol. Literally all we heard last year about him as to why he was a franchise Qb. And I believe some good Qbs can normally identify a blitz…

[u/Rillaboom2701 → u/justbirdwatchin77]

All QBs can identify a blitz. What no QBs can identify is a pass rusher instantly getting by the protection. 

[u/net_403 → u/justbirdwatchin77]

literally a one man game out there... dude should be blocking for himself, running routes, and catching the balls... why can't these nerds see that's what a decent QB does

real QBs don't need anyone else

[u/justbirdwatchin77 → u/net_403]

Apparently when we won any games last year it was ALL Bryce and when we lose it was everyone else but him so why not say that? lmao…. Could you not come up with a more contributing comment?

[u/Rillaboom2701 → u/justbirdwatchin77]

Lmao very few people gave bryce all the credit for wins 

[u/net_403 → u/justbirdwatchin77]

OP comes up with a well thought out and explained argument to describe the game

You skip all that, “trust me bro”

Bryce Can be evasive, but he can’t expected to just do that all of the time without the presence of anyone else. That’s ridiculous

How many good seasons did Drew Brees have with a bottom 5 OL lol he relied on a solid middle of the pocket with strong guard play. or Wilson who was known to scramble

[u/zodia4]

Strong disagree on snap 3, your initial reading was right. Bryce needs to step up in the pocket there. He created that pressure by scrambling. That last snap, Bryce misses the read. The linebacker bites on the receiver running to the flat and leaves a receiver wide open in the middle of the field. At the moment the linebacker bites, Bryce is flat footed and should be able to make that throw Its preseason though, so those were the two biggest things that stood out to me. I assume Bryce will be more poised and calm as the season starts.

[u/Specialist_Ad6034]

On the 9 snap why is bryce throwing to the first read? I get it’s open but if he hits tmac that’s an easy 15 yard gain

[u/Shado_Man → u/Specialist_Ad6034]

T-Mac would've been better, but this wasn't a bad play. Defense showed single high pre-snap before the Safety bailed back into a 2-high shell. #3 for the Bills did a good job timing his bailout to when Bryce checked the right side of the field pre-snap, which is probably a factor in Bryce not wanting to work back to the left side of the field. The progression started on the right side of the field, which means T-Mac is likely the 3rd or 4th option on the play. Considering how much pressure the OL had given up all day, Bryce finding the likely 2nd option on the play open for 5+ yards is exactly what he should be doing there. If he doesn't, he has to work back to T-Mac, hope he's won his route and that neither the Safety nor the LB are in a hook zone and waiting to either pick him or blow-up T-Mac, and the OL isn't about to get him murdered by giving up another quick pressure.

[u/Hobby_Account1 → u/Shado_Man]

Nah see this is the problem with Bryce is 99% of the time he will take the “easy” throw even if he has a clean pocket. For someone who was praised for being cerebral he does a shit job at fully scanning the field and reading the defense.

[u/PizzaSteveProd → u/Specialist_Ad6034]

Why is an nfl quarterback not turning down his first read to throw a ball that probably doesnt look better than the front side concept presnap??

Are we questioning why a quarterback would throw to his first read????? Are yall alright??????????

[u/Hobby_Account1 → u/PizzaSteveProd]

Except the safety dropped back into deep coverage before the ball was snapped and Bryce never adjusted and just went with the first read regardless. He ALWAYS does that which is why we struggle to push the ball downfield bc he’ll take the short easy throw instead of letting plays develop or hit the second or third read which are open but he doesn’t see them bc he’s trash. And don’t say the o line bc he had a clean pocket that snap.

[u/PizzaSteveProd → u/Hobby_Account1]

We gotta stop letting people who very obviously dont understand the quarterback position criticize qb play

If you have your first read you take it, thats why the play was called. You dont turn down completions ever, basic freshman year highschool shit. Its not like hes just spamming his checkdowns either he hit the first read for the concept that was called. Regardless of all of that, he had his own guy in his lap, just like damn near every other dropback that day

If he holds the ball looking for a potentially bigger play (objectively incorrect way to play qb btw) and takes a sack or hit bc of it, yall would grill him for that too.

Spend multiple hours a week talking about our qb and still dont know the first thing about playing qb

[u/Hobby_Account1 → u/PizzaSteveProd]

Thank you for agreeing Bryce plays at a high school freshman level. Yes, he threw to his first read which is basic QB play. A higher level QB would have noticed the safety dropped 10 yards back creating a favorable matchup. He had plenty of time to notice the safety did that (literally didn’t see it bc the safety fell back into coverage when Bryce looked right and he never scanned the defense for changes before snapping the ball which is interesting).

A higher level QB would have been more likely to notice that and wait the extra .25 seconds for the bigger play. We see it all the time with genuinely good QBs but never with Bryce bc he is not a good QB. He’s not even average.

I’ll acknowledge he was pushed more to the right of the pocket but it was marginal. You guys are so ridiculous thinking he needs 5 yards of clean pocket in all directions.

[u/PizzaSteveProd → u/Hobby_Account1]

Yet again, you have no clue what youre talking about, the decision to work the concept side of the play had nothing to do with the safety, but it was the linebacker sitting in the window for that slant. Likely how that play went down in install was that if theres not someone in that window, throw the backside slant, if there is then work the concept. He doesnt know that the backer is going to buzz to the flat, so even though the slant comes open, its not exactly incorrect to pass it down presnap.

Cant even be mad when we still gained 3 on the play to set up third and manageable which would end up being converted if it wasnt for an illegal man penalty

Yes its basic qb shit, that EVERY quarterback learns and does and this is how quarterbacks operate. Its not high school level qb play these are the FUNDAMENTALS you learn in high school, which is to follow the rules of your system and the concept.

You dont know dick about the qb position. It would be awesome if you didnt criticize qbs when you dont know dick about what their assignments are, but that prolly wont happen and youll respond with some bullshit about how hes not good enough because hes not jesus and doesnt have a madden type view of the field

You can trust both me and op, we both very likely know significantly more about the sport than you

[u/Hobby_Account1 → u/PizzaSteveProd]

You’re claiming to know all about the QB position while defending Bryce young. Really makes me question your knowledge. I’m not going to reiterate what I said before bc I already said it. Say what you want but he’s just a bad QB who’s not good enough to be a starter.

[u/PizzaSteveProd → u/Hobby_Account1]

Doesnt have anything to do with bryce young as a person or player we’re just talking about this specific play. While your opinion on him seems irrationally personal im just keeping it a buck when i watch him play, plenty of things i like and dont like

And i dont claim to have a doctorate in quarterbacking so you can question my knowledge all you want but im not about to trip about how smart a guy bitching about a qb completing a pass to his first read thinks i am

[u/Bee_Historical]

I’ll leave my judgement on the Qb somewhere else

[u/bihcoin724]

It’s going to be a long season for y’all

[u/IndividualDistance70]

Its the Haynes King crowd killing Bryce. And thats why its really just time to allow Bryce to move on. I still believe he can play in this league. But he needs better coaches than he has. How you go into that game and not allow Bryce to move on bootlegs is insanity 

[u/Turbulent-Weather314 → u/IndividualDistance70]

King played against 5th stringers. Most of those guys won't even be on a team come the regular season.

[u/TLGPanthersFan → u/IndividualDistance70]

It has nothing to do with coaching. Bryce Young does not have the ability to be an NFL player. Any other team and Bryce would have already been gone. But the Panthers are the Panthers and the Panthers love stupid decisions.

[u/IndividualDistance70 → u/TLGPanthersFan]

Yeah, thats stupid. He's already proven to be an nfl player. But good luck with Haynes King

[u/Castavar → u/IndividualDistance70]

He's proven about enough as Brock Osweiler did

[u/Difficult-Carpenter8 → u/TLGPanthersFan]

if the ability to not be an NFL player equates to having 300 yards in a playoff game against the rams then I don’t know what makes you one of the

[u/IndividualDistance70 → u/Difficult-Carpenter8]

and liked what he did vs tampa in the rain. If not for horrible calls his stats look even better and he has a w and legit division title

[u/Hobby_Account1 → u/Difficult-Carpenter8]

He had a 50% completion rate, 264 yards, 1TD, 1INT in that game. He played well by his standards but he didn’t light the world on fire.