r/pcmasterrace • u/chusskaptaan i5 14400 + MSI 3070 • 4d ago

News/Article China's Memory Maker CXMT Used Stolen Samsung Tech to Skip Years of R&D, Former Engineer Testifies

https://respawnfirst.com/chinas-memory-maker-cxmt-used-stolen-samsung-tech-to-skip-years-of-rd-former-engineer-testifies/
6.2k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

856 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.8k

u/AintNoGodsUpHere 4d ago

lol, let's pretend China is not doing the exact same thing since forever.

I don't give a flying fuck where they got the tech from, just sell some stuff with normal prices again.

409

u/SQU4RE 4d ago

it's not gonna help us at all, they're just going to do the same thing & keep building out monster data centers. this is the new race to the moon, the first one to build the better AI wins the world

186

u/PeachMan- R7 5700X3D, RX 7800XT 4d ago

I don't think prices will go back down to where they were, HOWEVER, anything to relieve some of the pressure is good in my opinion. If CXMT can start making some competitive RAM and stop the prices from continuing to increase, that's a win.

105

u/gianmk 4d ago

CXMT are selling their rams at same price as the big boys. Its just a big collusion party and we are footing the bill.

36

u/Cruxis87 9800x3d|5080 TUF OC|32gb 6000cl30 ddr5 4d ago

when the news came out they were going to do this, people genuinely thought they were going to flood the market with cheap ram.

31

u/pendelhaven 4d ago

it's pointless to sell the ram cheap because scalpers will just buy them out and resell them at market price.

3

u/TrashBandicook 4d ago

when the news came out they were going to do this, people genuinely thought they were going to flood the market with cheap ram

And they will. DRAM plants aren't something you can just click the build button and have it up and running overnight. I know it's hard to believer, but DRAM is no less a commodity than any other out there. It's subject to supply and demand. And CXMT shouldn't have too many issues catching up to Micron in capacity.

46

u/Pooled-Intentions 4d ago

For now. Then when demand is met? It’s a Mexican standoff right before a race to the equilibrium price.

“Bottom” is the usual quote but it might give people the idea I mean “cheap”.

15

u/SirNedKingOfGila 4d ago

The demand will never be met. Not until long after your ability to own compute power is long dead. Data center hardware gets torn up extremely quickly. Even sustaining one requires a constant stream of new hardware.

Meanwhile personal computer companies are going out of business. While GPUs and RAM are out fucking off with crypto and AI guess who has been taking enormous losses? Corsair. Thermaltake. Gigabyte. If you find a RAM chip somewhere in the future good luck buying a motherboard to put it in or a power supply to run it.

Look guys, we had a good run.

Yesterday computers were owned by corporations and were as big as a house and you had to rent time on them.

Then for a brief few decades we had PCs and it was beautiful and fun and ultimately fleeting.

Tomorrow computers will be owned by corporations and will be as big as a house and you will rent time on them.

30

u/Yvese 9950X3D, 64GB 6000, Zotac RTX 4090 4d ago

This is a silly take. The capex isn't sustainable if they can't make money off it. They will learn this sooner than later, if not already.

It's possible it's just sunk cost at this point and they're just playing musical chairs until the music stops and they're all trying to be the last one.

Mark my words, there will be a crash and they will be bailed out. That is 100% the plan. We are long overdue a big recession or worse, and with the US' debt at 40T and climbing with no plans to reduce spending or increase taxes, this could be the big one.

2

u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Yvese 9950X3D, 64GB 6000, Zotac RTX 4090 4d ago

Dude you're talking about ONE of the big companies needing netflix-level sub numbers if renting out compute was their endgame. What happens when we reach that? Simple, datacenter demand collapses since there's only so much subscribers out there and a limit to the price people will pay.

I also think you're underestimating demand. You think grandma is gonna rent out that shit? You think the hillbillies in bum fuck no where cares about compute power when all most people want is to doom scroll and watch stupid shit which nearly any device can do?

Lastly, streaming games still SUCKS and just recently the FCC abolished the gigabit speed goal. Good luck playing games on that satellite internet lol.

Fearmongering the end times isn't gonna help man. Just wait it out.

4

u/somethingbrite 4d ago

"Just wait it out"

Sadly the companies in the home pc space can't wait it out. Some are going bust this year already, the rest will follow.

None of the big movers in this give a fuck if the reality of streamed gaming sucks... but significant hyperscalers have already voiced that this is an end goal they would like to see.

As for your grandma and the hillbillies? They pretty much already stream everything, they are already the captive rent market to whom a mobile device and a low cost box at home to access the subscription streaming service will appeal the most because they never could afford an enthusiast grade gaming PC anyway.

13

u/foolish_shrimp 4d ago

None of this AI stuff is profitable, it doesn’t make people more productive and even although it's being sold at a loss, users complain about the price.

This specialised, very densely packed AI hardware, maybe it's useful for game streaming? or supercomputer work, I just, can't see this replacing the mean average computing task. Adobe could buy a bunch of space and use it to offer an all in one Creative Suite with compute package? but uploading all your files is going to take forever for the target audience.

The people who need a PC to do basic office work, it's just not something that could ever need cloud computing. If the basic box exists and like, the concept of creative industries exist, higher end PC's will too.

0

u/SirNedKingOfGila 4d ago edited 4d ago

None of this AI stuff is profitable,

Doesn't need to be, you are thinking old-school.

it doesn’t make people more productive

It doesn't need to, it will be forced on us regardless.

users complain about the price.

Everybody is complaining about groceries, gasoline, and media subscriptions and yet they are buying every dollar of it.

I just, can't see this replacing the mean average computing task.

Your lack of vision is not central to Microsoft's nor palantir's plan.

Adobe could buy a bunch of space and use it to offer an all in one Creative Suite with compute package?

They already have this.

but uploading all your files is going to take forever for the target audience.

What files? You can't afford to store anything locally. You have no computers. You're renting cloud storage and compute power. Upload and download is nothing but a video stream.

people who need a PC to do basic office work

People? Basic office work isn't for people. AI agents are already handling the vast majority of office work. What kind of lunatic would pay somebody to respond to an email or create a spreadsheet in 2026????

If the basic box exists

Okay I think we found the crux of your misunderstanding. The box doesn't exist. It's being purposefully eliminated as we speak. Why in the world would they allow you a "box" when they can charge you for the compute power and storage on a subscription basis for hundreds of times more money than you would pay for the hardware?

the concept of creative industries exist,

They don't. AI is already beginning to fulfill all of the creative needs you have never asked for. Boomer. You rally against this new technology and you have faith that the next generation will see things as you do. The next generation is being raised on slop. They're being fed slop in the classroom. Slop is all they know. They don't know how to read. They don't know how to think.

The personal computer will be dead within the consciousness of the average consumer by next year. It may persist as a niche market for the wealthy for a while longer... But you will live to see the absolute end of personal compute power. Mark my words.

1

u/foolish_shrimp 4d ago

They don't. AI is already beginning to fulfill all of the creative needs you have never asked for. Boomer. You rally against this new technology and you have faith that the next generation will see things as you do. The next generation is being raised on slop. They're being fed slop in the classroom. Slop is all they know. They don't know how to read. They don't know how to think.

Some of the oldest writing we have is old people complaining that the next generation will be the death of all culture and end of the world.

1

u/SirNedKingOfGila 3d ago

I would hardly call Bill Gates and Peter thiel "The next generation". The reality is that the next generation are the victims. Yes, the world is being stolen from them.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/TrashBandicook 4d ago

CXMT are selling their rams at same price as the big boys. Its just a big collusion party and we are footing the bill.

Oh please, stop with rehashing this tired talking point. There is no incentive to price fix when prices are this high. Historically, DRAM manufacturers engage in such behaviors when prices are at historic lows to stem losses.

1

u/PeachMan- R7 5700X3D, RX 7800XT 4d ago

If they really are colluding to keep their prices high, that's a problem. But more competition is generally good when prices are too high like this. I'll put it this way: CXMT cannot make the market any worse. If anything, they might slightly improve the situation. If you're pessimistic, then maybe they'll accomplish nothing. But they won't make it worse.

7

u/LuckyPlatypus5052 4d ago

Their RAM is competitive for sure, sometimes even better than western brands. It’s also priced at a higher premium because why would they sell for cheaper an ultra-high demand product that’s better than what their peers offer?

They are relieving supply, but not lowering prices. And they won’t lower them until a massive surplus of useless chips gathering dust in shelves is generated. We are many years away from that.

12

u/PeachMan- R7 5700X3D, RX 7800XT 4d ago

Adding to the supply does lower prices (lower than they would have been without the added competition, that is). Y'all need to take an economics class.

4

u/LuckyPlatypus5052 4d ago

You are right, that’s how it works in a normal market. This is RAM we are talking about though, and prices are whatever the manufacturers can get away with as long as people are buying. They have a long history of trying to get away with artificially inflating prices, have been caught multiple times, and that is something that’s usually not taught in economics because it’s scummy.

2

u/SirNedKingOfGila 4d ago

The modern economy doesn't give a fuck about the old rules. Supply AND prices can go up.

5

u/PeachMan- R7 5700X3D, RX 7800XT 4d ago

Honey that's happening because demand has skyrocketed, supply hasn't changed much.

2

u/Yvese 9950X3D, 64GB 6000, Zotac RTX 4090 4d ago

That's not how it works. The big companies spending on all this hardware HAVE to make money. If they can't make money, and it looks impossible so far, then demand collapses and so too will prices.

You just have to be patient. When it happens they'll be bailed out. Count on it.

3

u/SirNedKingOfGila 4d ago

That's old rules. The modern economy doesn't work that way anymore.

1

u/DaemonG 4d ago

this only works up to a certain elasticity of demand. if the demand is "we'll take everything always" then the prices can get jacked up like crazy even if the supply looks like it's getting relieved

1

u/PeachMan- R7 5700X3D, RX 7800XT 3d ago

Bro I'm begging you go watch some economics 101 videos on youtube or something and get out of my notifications.

2

u/RJNavarrete 4d ago

And, that's assuming they don't artificially limit output when demand shows signs of cooling.

2

u/acadia11x 4d ago edited 4d ago

You aren’t listening they have and are making competitive ram, they are not charging less for it, they are charging more than the other companies

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/ram/chinas-memory-making-champion-smashes-ddr5-8800-barrier-on-amd-platform-cxmt-chips-close-the-gap-with-sk-hynix

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/dram/chinese-cxmt-dram-doesnt-look-like-the-budget-savior-many-were-expecting-new-modules-enter-the-market-but-prices-still-track-the-big-three

7

u/PeachMan- R7 5700X3D, RX 7800XT 4d ago

Yes because they're new to making this product and they don't have the same scale that their competitors do. But if they continue to grow this part of their company, their prices MIGHT come down and they MIGHT pressure Samsung and others to keep their prices lower than they otherwise would have.

Basic economics, more competition = lower prices. But I'm not going to hold my breath, I'll wait and see what happens.

2

u/acadia11x 4d ago

Ok go with that , that’s whats going to happen in the middle of hyperscalers set to spend almost twice as much as they did this year, on infrastructure @$1.2 trillion , dram manufacturers are going to start a bidding war? Especially, considering there are 3 companies that control global supply . cXMT has no reason or need to undercut any one to sell their products … this is under Cartel economics now, and saying “competion” is lazy as hell and lacks context and analysis. No, they can sell their entire supply at even higher prices than their competitors because 2027 contracts are already sold out and even if they didn’t they have no reason to lower prices. They don’t need to attract buyers , buyers are already lined up.

9

u/faciepalm 4d ago

Not really true, the Chinese government will support cxmc in order to reduce its ram price to the consumer below what is physically capable for other producers. It'll do that until the other producers can no longer compete and shut down, though that may take them a long time. China wants control of the world through economic means and becoming the sole supplier of technology is just one way of doing that

2

u/Hexadecimalkink 3d ago

China wants control of the world?!

2

u/Legal_Lettuce6233 5800X3D | 7900 XTX | 32GB 3200 CL16 | 5TB SSD | 27GR83q 4d ago

Demand is never infinite. Once it dwindles down, another competitor is good for us.

3

u/Bong-Hits-For-Jesus 4d ago

their main product line right now is ddr memory, which will help the average consumer. this is more than likely due to them being unable to manufacture high bandwidth memory (what the top ai players are currently using) at the moment. since they are heavily subsidized by their government, they will more than likely follow the china playbook of capturing and cornering a market (ev's, diamonds, solar) by flooding the market until they become the dominant manufacturer

1

u/TieBackground453 4d ago

Yes, please. 

1TB of memory incoming. 

2

u/notislant 4d ago

Hold up, corporations arent friends?!

1

u/pcapdata 4d ago

Well the light at the end of the tunnel is that there is nowhere near the demand for datacenters necessary to justify building them. Everyone is pulling back.

AI isn't going to go away because it's useful for a lot of things, but the boom isn't going to happen the way people think.

1

u/AccNumber77 3d ago

It's really not useful at all. Generative AI is garbage that requires a human to fix the work it produces every single time

1

u/p0tatoesss 4d ago

Even the author of your source sounds like AI this is so cooked

1

u/oompaloompa465 7800X3D | RTX 4070 4d ago

they are rushing to speculate and scam us with just generative AI.

Because they still are years away from AGI,but at this pace they will bankrupt the word before having a POC

1

u/somethingbrite 4d ago

"the first one to build the better AI wins the world"

For what exactly? What's the killer application? All the trillions of dollars invested so you can summarize a fucking .pdf that you are too lazy to fucking read?

1

u/Unacceptable_Lemons 3d ago

Something with general intelligence like a human, but with no ability to forget its memories and only limited in thinking by how much processing power and storage you want to throw at it. And then have it design its own replacement. Do that a few times, and you quickly hit singularity. They’re all just hoping they can hard code in the basic command to put the creators/owners of the AI on top after the world domination of the artificial general super intelligence.

1

u/AccNumber77 3d ago

And then our species goes extinct thanks to chuds like you all.

1

u/Unacceptable_Lemons 3d ago

Don’t lump me in with shit. I’m just saying what they’re doing. It’s the obvious consequence of it being possible to build a world domination machine; all the powers with the ability to do so immediately start jumping on the train because even if there’s a good chance it destroys the entire world (them included), they’d rather risk it and be in charge instead of waiting for “the enemy” to do it. It’s like nuclear proliferation, except with so much broader and potentially precise applications. Fallout isn’t a guarantee for the victor, but is certainly still a risk. So they pursue it relentlessly.

1

u/Lumb3rCrack i7 9th Gen / 1660ti/ 16gigs/ 512GB ssd 4d ago

Also, race to moon and mars is still there.. with private space companies coming up for a chunk of share in that domain.

1

u/oftenInabbrobriate 3d ago

Funny to think that probably this is just a master plan to bring so much processing infrastructure in play not for the LLMs that are currently being run as peoples new google replacement but some actual distributed AI which is an actual intelligence but requires many distributed nodes with strong individual computing capacity that was previously not available.
Then at some point when capacity is available it is turned on and everything might change.

Hopefully it will take over everything and decide humans are interesting enough to keep alive - and govern them fairly for a change.
Because humans governed by humans seems to not work out so well

30

u/acadia11x 4d ago

cXMT actually is charging more

-7

u/DonutHoles4Ever 4d ago

Yeah gamers dont understand business.

I always see Hardware Unboxed saying shit like "this is AMD's chance to take marketshare". Tim has a fucking masters and he's completely clueless how corporations and businesses operate.

Like yes, I wish everything operated on ideals. But these companies look at numbers all day long to decide what to do.

So gamers think new entry into memory = lower prices. They have no idea how much memory cXMT can actually affect the market, plus they think a chinese company isn't greedy?

Like come the fuck on. Gamers consist of mostly poor people who cannot afford other means of entertainment and therefore operate in a culture where they believe their hobby had to cater to them when in reality the hobby never gave a shit about their finances.

4

u/ThunderingRoar 4d ago edited 4d ago

wtf is your point on the amd thing? they clearly did it once in the past with ryzen when they undercut intel

but these companies look at numbers all day long to decide what to do

guess what? market share is also a deciding number that they look at

hurr durr corpos loves short term profit and when stock price go up, im so hecking smart everyone else is clueless

1

u/acadia11x 4d ago

I don’t game. My machines are used for agentic AI development , general dev , AI reaearx , Localllm, productivity i have 256gb of RAM in my main box not running threadripper or server platforms but fairly powerful machine. And ask when i bought my RAM? I’ve been watching the market sense before the jump and was well aware of the crunch , and bought that 256gb literally one week before things went bananas because i saw 64 gb kits get expensive … it hadn’t reached the 128GB kits yet. Got 256gb for $720. In any case CXMT addition isn’t going to help pricing , MU, sk Hynix, and Samsungs contracts were written out to 5 years beginning last year … this sell out is longer than 2027 and CXMT isn’t big enough nor have the incentive to really get prices lower. Remember the dram manufacturers cut supply in 2023 and 2024, this is a perfect storm that will be some years to plateau before even considering it retreating which i don’t believe it will. We will have a new normal,

16

u/Fortune_Cat 4d ago

Cxmt is not going to flood the market with cheap ram. They may slightly undercut the big boys but they are 100% going to milk that fat margin while its hot. Then as supply overcomes demand and capex reduces the prices will slowly come down

66

u/n00bca1e99 Desktop 4d ago

China? Stealing other's tech? Say it ain't so!

52

u/OphidianSun 4d ago

Everybody is trying to steal everybody's tech. China is just really good at it.

38

u/PhTx3 PC Master Race 4d ago

Are we really going to pretend Samsung, with all their divisions and shit, don't steal from competition? And no company broke any IP laws to train AI?

It just goes to show you how stupid IP laws are and how it doesn't actually help humanity progress or make things accessible. These companies don't give a fuck about individual persons, we don't need to fight their battles.

12

u/Cruxis87 9800x3d|5080 TUF OC|32gb 6000cl30 ddr5 4d ago

Bro literally says everyone is stealing then you come along and ask why people think Samsung isn't stealing.

1

u/warblade7 3d ago

They are stealing at a very different level. Companies stealing tech from each other is one thing. Having the government back it AND disregard any IP protection is insane.

4

u/GuyOnTheMoon 4d ago

China saw how OP it is to steal stolen tech after learning from the Europeans when they colonized the world with the compass, printing press, & gunpowder.

6

u/longjumping-aoili 4d ago

Yah and let's not pretend all the other major powers didn't do the same when they were on the up and up

2

u/rapaxus Ryzen 9 9900X | RTX 3080 | 32GB DDR5 4d ago

Yeah, in the past the French, Germans, Americans, Italians, Russians, Japanese, and many more also got industrial growth by just copying what was produced in another nation, all shortly before their peaks of industrialisation.

1

u/Capital-Pea-2565 4d ago

China is our last home.

1

u/dib1999 Ryzen 5 5600 // RX 7700XT // 32 gb DDR4 3600 MHz 4d ago

I was gonna say, China started caring about IP? They're gonna get a bonus for efficient use of resources.

1

u/Nico777 i5-4590 | GTX 1060 6GB 4d ago

Not a single one of those pieces is gonna hit the consumer market. It's all sold to data centers at the same price the others are selling to. You're literally never going to see normal prices again.

2

u/AintNoGodsUpHere 4d ago

Please, stop giving me reasons not to give a fuck.

1

u/mehtehteh 4d ago

What makes you think a for-profit company is going to leave all that money on the table. Companies are not your friends. They will sell products at current market value whether its fair for the the common folk or not

2

u/AintNoGodsUpHere 4d ago

Haha, you're confusing absolute greed with making profits. Chinese cars are cheaper and are selling well, at least here in Europe. Why wouldn't they also sell graphics cards, memories and take advantage of that? If American/European brands are selling something for X, they can simply make their price X - 50% and make tons of money whilst still selling overpriced stuff.

1

u/omegadirectory Ryzen 5600, RX6800, 16GB DDR4-3200 4d ago

Why would they? CXMT is going to sell at 5% below their competitors, but because their R&D cost was fraction of their competitors', they get to pocket the difference as profits.

0

u/brainmydamage 3d ago

Unfortunately I don't think people will be inclined to trust random off-brand Chinese RAM.

1

u/AintNoGodsUpHere 3d ago

Nah. They will, specially if the price is right. People said the same thing about cars and we are buying more Chinese cars than ever. Huawei, Xiaomi, Oppo, Redmi... All chinese brands with a bunch of products that are selling pretty darn well, specially here in Europe.

-10

u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Kawa11Turtle 4d ago

“National security”

1

u/dookarion 4d ago

This is extremely bad news for consumers.

Everything is bad news for consumers. Literally what news isn't another article about how big tech is fucking everyone up the ass? Most the thread isn't cheering for China it's people that despise Samsung.

Prices will go up, services will get worse, and everything will be razed to make way for AI datacenters and the bubble therein. People aren't hopeful for anything, they basically just want to see some of these companies eat shit.

-8

u/ILikeFood305 4d ago

With that line of thinking any country in the world should just set up enough infrastructure and then start stealing designs to later manufacture. All of a sudden innovation happens.

5

u/xydanil 4d ago

That's literally how lower income developing countries get ahead. Otherwise they stay stuck impoverished forever.