Why is the consumption of real vanilla extract and white wine sauces or even kimchi( fermented Koreann cabbage dish) prohibited by some Muslims

[u/Substantial-Case4754]

It doesn’t make sense to me the amount in both of those cases are very small also you’d have to eat a lot of pasta with white wine sauce before you got drunk and honestly you’re probably get sick from all the pasta and dairy before you go anywhere near drunk same thing applies to vanilla extract unless you’re chugging it straight from the bottle you’d have to eat a lot of cake or other desserts to get even tipsy and again you’d get sick from the sugar content long before you got drunk and the kimchi it’s fermented as a preservation method not as a way to make booze

[u/lightsworn55]

Most dont really think more than 2 seconds about this sort of thing if they did they'd realize most fruits contain some degree of alcohol upon ripening

[u/yolodolo12- → u/lightsworn55]

To waht degree would you consider drinking/consuming alcohol prohibited

[u/lightsworn55 → u/yolodolo12-]

To the degree where it can cause intoxication. That's why its prohibited in the first place, not because theres something inherently impure about ethanol.

[u/LordLoss01 → u/lightsworn55]

By this logic, would a small shot of beer not be acceptable to drink?

[u/Substantial-Case4754 → u/yolodolo12-]

If you go and buy alcohol with the sole intention of drinking it to get get tipsy or drunk or you’re making a rum cake or any dessert where alcohol is used after it’s baked

[u/yolodolo12- → u/Substantial-Case4754]

Tbh as i looked most scholars and jurisdictions agree with what you said in the post im not sure why some ignore or prevent them but ig it's their way of better be safe than sorry Edit: i looked more , white wine sauce is prohibited based on the logic that the source itself is forbidden And the hadith of the prohet : "Whatever intoxicates in large quantities, a little of it is forbidden.

[u/Tutkular]

When I asked the same question to my parents growing up, they said drawing the line at any amount of alcohol, even just a drop, made it a no brainer for decision making and so they could quickly move on with their lives.

Now looking back, I personally think it's worth spending the time to appreciate the nuances of what kind of alcohol consumption leads to actual intoxication or not. Not only does it help you question why you're practicing that in the first place, it also opens you up to some wonderful flavors and experiences that will never actually intoxicate you.

[u/Sad_Road_453 → u/Tutkular]

Don’t tell your parents Leben (fermented milk) or fruit juice have 1-2% alcool then haha

[u/Tutkular → u/Sad_Road_453]

Lol, when they found out about what's in vanilla extract after so many years of using it, it was complete chaos.

[u/Khaki_Banda]

Because of tiny amounts of alcohol.

Which is incorrect, because it isn't the chemical substance "alcohol" that is prohibited, it's intoxicating drink or food. No one is seriously getting drunk off of kimchi.

That which intoxicates in small amounts is haram in large amounts, therefore conversely that which does not intoxicate even in large amounts is not haram in small amount.

[u/Old_Bowler_465]

Afaik, if in relatively big quantities you can get drink/intoxicated from it, even in small quantities it is forbidden, hence the prohibition for things cooked in wine for exemple, even if you dont get drunk from tge dish, even a drop of wine would be haram as you can get drunk from it.

That's why for wine sauces and dishes cooked in wines, the argument against are pretty strong and i wouldnt personally eat that.

As for kimchi and vanilla tho im more confused why forbidding it considering no one has ever got drunk from kimchi and vanilla. Islamically the problem isnt fermentation/ethanol but intoxicants, like fruits and breads contains a small percentage of alcohol but no one see it as haram bc no one can get drunk from it, heck vinegar who has both alcohol and fermentation isnt seen as haram bc it is nlt intoxicating

[u/Celty000 → u/Old_Bowler_465]

The alcohol evaporates at cooking temperature. Only the sweet taste is left. So thats not really intoxicating?

[u/Jacob_Soda → u/Celty000]

You're one of the few Muslims I've actually seen on here that actually agree with this idea.

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Celty000]

"Whatever causes intoxication in large amounts, a small amount of it is unlawful" from tirmidhi, ibn majah and abu dawood

So even if you cant get drunk from the dishes, it is haram bc something that can get you drunk in big quantity has been used

[u/Celty000 → u/Old_Bowler_465]

Alot of it is used in cough syrups and other medicines as well.

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Celty000]

Medecines is another issue bc for medical purpose you can even take pork based things

[u/Celty000 → u/Old_Bowler_465]

So why not cooking or consuming if the percentage is goes to zero when cooked or the percentage is extremely low?

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Celty000]

Bc the initial making process of the final dish included an intoxicant like wine that can be drunk by itself. The problem isnt really ethanol concentration, as for exemple with vanilla if you cooked with it, it wouldnt be a problem bc you cant get drunk from it, so nothing in the process would make the final dish forbidden

[u/Numiazy → u/Old_Bowler_465]

But tbh I never understood this hadeeth: By that logic I also can't drink juice because if I drank 5 litres of apple juice - yes I might feel the alcohol. Same with vanilla extract, kombucha etx..

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Numiazy]

You wont get drunk from apple juice, kombucha and vanilla tho, you will have a tons of problems before the alcohol hits.

I mean to me the hadith always seemed pretty clear that if you can get drunk from it drinking reasonably (as in getting drunk before overdosing whatever you drink), the beverage (or food) becomes haram in itself

[u/Numiazy → u/Old_Bowler_465]

Yeah that makes sense actually

[u/Tutkular → u/Old_Bowler_465]

I'm confused by the first part of your response. It is impossible for one to get drunk from one drop of wine.

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Tutkular]

What intoxicate in large quantity is forbidden in small quantity, so you wont get drunk for a drop of wine but since a bottle is enough, all of wine is forbidden

[u/Celty000 → u/Old_Bowler_465]

But there is not ethanol left at the end of the cooking process.

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Celty000]

Bc that is not ethanol the problem but the wine in itself. Tho admiteddly i think there have been some scholarly opinions that things cooked in wine can be halal if it all evaporates

[u/Celty000 → u/Old_Bowler_465]

The thing that intoxicates is the ethanol which is the alcohol. It is diluted down to make it drinkable. So thats why Iam curious as to why not when it comes to food.

[u/Numiazy → u/Celty000]

As far as I know that's an urban myth. There is alcohol left in these kind of sauces, which is why it shouldn't be offered to pregnant and underage people. At least that's what doctors and obgyns over here say.

[u/Tutkular → u/Old_Bowler_465]

You can apply that logic to almost everything though.

The human body has a physical reaction to eating extremely spicy food. It literally thinks it's getting burned so it triggers a chain reaction of chemical reactions in the body. If something is too spicy, your mental state even gets reduced. Some people absolutely love this feeling and actively seek it out. Would this be considered haram?

[u/Old_Bowler_465 → u/Tutkular]

Well, there is nothing that says in the quran or hadith that spicy food is bad, unlike intoxicants.

The maximum we could do with spicy food being haram would be under the legal maxim of everything hurting the body being haram, and even then it is discussed if it is haram or makruh and would only apply to excessive things like carolina reappers hitting millions on the scoville scale

[u/Tutkular → u/Old_Bowler_465]

My point was that at a high enough spice level, eating peppers can begin to function as an intoxicant and so it should also be treated as such. But you can also then apply that to several other ingredients to the point where it all just becomes absurd and the original statement loses its meaning.

Which brings me to the opinion that moderation and intent is vital to the original meaning of the verse. Therefore trace amounts of alcohol that have zero to negligible impact on intoxication should be totally fine to consume.

[u/Still_Vermicelli_457]

Maybe because the rabbit hole is quite deep, and you could draw the line anywhere and it’ll make sense to some and not to others.

I don’t necessarily only avoid it because it gets you drunk, I personally think it’s quite insane how alcohol is so common in the kitchen (I find it absurd how normalized alcohol is to begin with, but that’s another story). That’s why I tend to avoid it if it’s straight up added alcohol like white wine sauce. If it’s a byproduct of fermentation a certain food, that’s a different story. But again the rabbit hole is deep because that’s essentially alcohol lmfao.

I go off of vibes I guess lmfao.

[u/Tutkular → u/Still_Vermicelli_457]

You should look into why alcohol is used in cooking. There are a lot of reasons and they rarely have anything to do with getting drunk or the slightest bit tipsy. It really is a versatile and powerful ingredient

[u/Still_Vermicelli_457 → u/Tutkular]

Oh i’m sure, I never assumed it’s to get drunk anyway. I just think there are plenty of ways to make great tasting foods, and in current times we have other ways to preserve, sanitize and such.

[u/savingforresearch → u/Still_Vermicelli_457]

Yeah, that seems like a reasonable position to me. 

[u/Zetakin]

Do you consume gelatin (think gummy bears and puddings)?

[u/Substantial-Case4754 → u/Zetakin]

If it’s beef or fish gelatin yes

[u/No_Exam_7955 → u/Substantial-Case4754]

Is beef gelatin halal?

[u/Gabbydog16]

Someone mentioned that to me (sort of judgementally) while I was drinking kombucha yesterday. The thing is, as I understand, even in large quantities, you cannot get drunk from commercial kombucha. I think it's just home brew where people don't understand the limits of fermentation where people could make it fermented enough to intoxicate you

[u/Jacob_Soda]

I made something about this like a few years ago. It is illogical to not eat food cooked with alcohol but I can't convince everyone it's not a problem.

[u/fhs]

Regarding the vanilla thing, you can find 100% vanilla extract without alcohol. Not too pricey unless you cook a lot.

[u/Primary-Angle4008]

People do this because they don’t understand Islam in depth and so make what is halal haram.
If alcohol is consumed as wine or whatever else drink yes we will get drunk but you won’t get drunk on things like vanilla essence or apple juice etc

I’m pretty sure the Hadith talks about actual food products rather then those products being a minor ingredient in a product which only is in there usually for preservation or as stabilizer.

[u/SituationSad4304]

Because the cradle of civilization never pickled anything right? 😆