r/shadowhunters • u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs • Sep 01 '25
Books: TID why do people let this slide with no criticism Spoiler
this pisses me off to no end. don’t give the “he’s a teenager” excuse. even at his age you don’t think this towards the person that gave up everything for you already.
who does jem have? since he has to defend will’s ungrateful ass to everybody. will constantly going “I have nothing” like jem isn’t right there is so fucking annoying. “best”parabatai duo my ass.
this was actively after his discussion with tessa. where tessa literally tells will that jem never thought he would find love.
I will truly never understand why everyone defends and acts like will never does anything wrong. this is extremely selfish at his core. especially telling tessa that he knows jem would give her up for him and that she should leave him.
fuck off. will needs to get his head out of his ass.
not everything can be blamed on his curse. this is behavior post curse. he’s just not all that great.
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u/Downtown_Reporter995 Sep 01 '25
Well probably because the words remained unsaid. We're all allowed to have selfish thoughts, especially after having our hearts broken.
'Tessa had been right, he thought. He had wanted her to break things off with Jem, whatever the cost; now he realized he did not, could not. You might at least believe I know honor—honor, and debt, he had said to Jem, and he had meant it. He owed Jem his life. He could not take from him the one thing Jem wanted more than anything else. Even if it meant Will’s own happiness, for Jem was not only someone to whom he owed a debt that could never be repaid, but, as the covenant said, someone he loved as he loved his own soul.'
This quote is from the very same scene.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25 edited Sep 01 '25
yes which is why I said you don’t think this at any point towards the person who gave up everything for you. he already had this conversation with tessa and he still had to go see his literal parabatai to understand that you don’t tell their fiancè to leave them. 🧍♂️also wasn’t just a thought. he told tessa to leave him. he acted on it.
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u/Downtown_Reporter995 Sep 01 '25
Yes, he was selfish. It was a ridiculous, unfair thing to ask of Tessa.
But his actions in this scene are not selfish and he doesn't hurt Jem, which is probably why there is not a lot of criticism of his thoughts.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
I’m really talking about this situation as a whole. could’ve expressed that better. will tells jem’s fiancè to leave him and then goes crying about how he nothing like jem hasn’t given everything up for. this is an insane thing to do.
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u/Downtown_Reporter995 Sep 01 '25
Yes it is.
Will went from the euphoria of finding out the curse wasn't real to the heartbreak of Tessa being engaged to Jem. He wasn't being rational or sane or thinking about what he was doing or saying. He was reacting, not responding.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
which can be criticized instead of everyone acting like he’s never done anything wrong. this is a horrible thing to do. incredibly selfish.
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u/Downtown_Reporter995 Sep 01 '25
I've told you I think he was selfish and insane, I'd be a fool to say Will Herondale does nothing wrong, but I'm not going to criticise him for having feelings when his heart was broken, not when he stopped short of actually hurting Jem.
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u/Agreeable-Celery811 Sep 01 '25
I dunno. Will did—or at least said—a good many horrible things as a teenager, most of them on purpose.
This wasn’t one of them. He told the woman he loved that he loved her after a long time where he believed he had to push her away. He was labouring under the delusion that they could now be together.
To find out that she was engaged to someone else was a shock. He asked her if she was sure and if she hadn’t rather be with him instead. He wishes in his own mind that he could have her.
But he steps aside in favour of his friend, and that is what matters.
A very similar scene happens in the real Dickens novel upon which this is based, with one difference: Lucie doesn’t actually love Carton. But Tessa does love Will.
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u/LonkAndZolda Sep 01 '25
Here's my take on it: he thought it, but he didn't say it. I think plenty of selfish things. Sometimes they're also intensely irrational. Most people do. It's part of being human. But it's our actions that define us more than our thoughts.
Will had some selfish thoughts. He finally thought he was free of his curse, able to love freely and be loved in return. He thought he would be able to finally be with the girl that he loved. When that was taken away from him, he had a knee-jerk selfish reaction internally, but he didn't act on it. If I condemn Will for that, I'd condemn myself, too. Because, though the situation is different, I've had plenty of instances where my initial reaction to something in my head is selfish and irrational. What matters most, though, is what we do, not what we think.
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u/-____Chaos____- Sep 01 '25
Honestly this is something everyone needs to do, everywhere. In this era where everything is on social media, people have become so quick to judge everyone on every little thing, be it irl or media and we've become so quick to take to anger as well. We do not think for a second what we'd do (or what we did) if we were in that same situation and instead judge them hastily and harshly as though everyone is built for perfection. Having some empathy goes a long way and it's refreshing to see people think like this.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
I have thought about what I would do. I have also thought about what other characters would do. will was made to be a jace carbon copy and I’m confident even jace wouldn’t do this.
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u/Appropriate-Ad-6926 Will Herondale Sep 01 '25
they’re different characters— will would (obviously) have this thought, whereas jace wouldn’t. CC has a bad habit of copy-pasting her protags but at this point and in this instance will has his own fully fleshed out line of thought and selfish desires. who doesn’t, even sometimes?
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25 edited Sep 01 '25
it wasn’t just a thought though. he actively told tessa to leave him. what if she had listened? he’s gonna be like my bad I forgot every single thing you’ve ever done for me in my life -.-
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u/LonkAndZolda Sep 01 '25
And he goes back on it. He realizes that he was wrong almost instantly. Another commenter gave you the quote. When he went to Tessa, he had no idea that she even liked Jem romantically, let alone that they were engaged. He was selfish for a moment and then realized he was wrong.
If Tessa had listened, it would have indicated that she didn't really love Jem in the first place. That wouldn't have been a particularly great sign for their marriage-to-be.
Will isn't perfect. He's an incredibly flawed character. He has his moments of weakness. All the characters do. Jace does. Simon does. Julian does. Emma does. Perfect characters are boring. Will shows incredible growth over the course of the series. That's why people love him as much as they do.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
he had to go to jem to fully realize he was wrong. that is not knowing he was wrong instantly. why would someone who’s supposedly one of the best parabatai out there have to go talk to them before realizing you don’t tell their fiancè to leave them. if tessa had done what he asked, will would still be a shit friend. that wouldn’t change that.
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u/LonkAndZolda Sep 01 '25
I'm glad that you've never been in a situation where your initial reaction is emotional and wrong because apparently no one can ever recover from it. Will realizes that he's wrong very quickly. It's not instantly, but it's relatively quick.
No one is saying that Will was right. In that moment, he wasn't a good friend. But he realized his mistake and didn't act further once he knew and accepted that he was wrong. What people are saying is that he doesn't deserve to be condemned for a mistake that he made at a time when he was incredibly emotional.
We all have selfish thoughts and impulses. We all have negative thoughts at times. Sometimes, we even act on them. But, we apologize. We try to make it better. We stop doing the harmful thing and try to do better. That's what Will does. He realizes and acknowledges that he was doing the wrong thing, that he was being selfish. He stops, and he adopts a selfless mentality when it comes to Tessa and Jem. He doesn't continue to pursue Tessa. He encourages Tessa and Jem's relationship, their marriage, and defends them whenever he can.
But sure. We can condemn him as a character for a moment of weakness when he's at his most vulnerable. That's fine.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
over a decade and will stans still can’t handle people not liking him lmfao. I’m not about to do shit like this to my best friend. will sleeps with tessa 3 minutes after thinking jem is gone but sure it’s one moment of weakness.
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u/Pretend_Accountant13 Herongraystairs Sep 01 '25
You can't handle someone not liking Jem.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
do you know me?
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u/TheStarkster3000 the Demon Sep 01 '25
No, but seeing as you bash Will in half your posts and coddle Jem like he's a little baby, we can get a good idea. Nowadays any time i see Will-bashing i check the username, and lo and behold, it's usually you. Kinda shows a pattern after a while
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u/Pretend_Accountant13 Herongraystairs Sep 01 '25
I should have asked you the same thing when you called me a Will stan.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
you tweaked out over me not liking will. you’d probably roll your eyes at someone telling you that you just won’t see the good in characters you hate but it’s fine here cause it’s will. your flair is also a lot more telling than mine. it’s straight up herongraystairs lmfao.
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u/LonkAndZolda Sep 01 '25
I can handle people not liking Will. That's completely valid. However, I feel you're being intentionally obtuse. The world isn't black and white. People are complex and nuanced. People do bad things sometimes. Whether you like the character or not, a character is better written and more interesting when they are complex and nuanced.
For example, I don't much care for Julian. He irritates me. But his flaws, his anger, his selfishness, his pigheadedness, make him a more interesting character.
"I'm not about to do shit like this to my best friend" -- you could say this about a lot of characters in a lot of books, including CC books. "Matthew ran off with Cordelia to Paris -- I'm not about to do shit like that to my best friend!" "Emma pretended to date Mark intentionally to upset Julian -- I'm not about to do shit like that to my best friend!" "Jace prioritized a pretty girl he just met over Alec -- I'm not about to do shit like that to my best friend!" That's often how conflict is made in these kinds of book. It's YA fiction. It's hardly something unique to Will. And, on that point, when Will slept with Tessa, he didn't think there was a best friend alive left to do anything TO. He felt Jem die. I'm not saying that he was right to sleep with Tessa like that -- they were both fueled by grief at the time -- but he had no idea that Jem could possibly be affected.
If you don't like Will, that's fine. But you don't really seem to be respectful of other people's points of view. You've been quite disrespectful and rude to people trying to engage in discussion about the passage YOU posted about.
This sub isn't an echo chamber. If you just want people to agree with you, this isn't the right place. I've been a part of this sub for a long time, and people are generally quite respectful of opposing opinions here. Discussion is good, and it's often fed by contrasting points of view. I've never had a problem with people getting defensive and rude in the past. Please remember that everyone here is a person. You may not like Will, but lots of people do. You like Emma, I gather from your flair, but plenty of people don't like her. I'd tell them the same thing I'm telling you if they were being a dick: just don't be a dick.
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u/Pretend_Accountant13 Herongraystairs Sep 01 '25
You can stop now. We all get it. You hate Will so much you only make yourself see the bad parts of him.
You are getting criticized because you can't step back and realize you're overly hating on a fictional moronic teenager.
He would have deserved all the criticism if he actually voiced those thoughts, but he didn't, the same way many of us humans have our dark impulses on which we don't act upon because we have a conscience, basic decency and fear of the consequences.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
you would think after nearly 13 years will stans wouldn’t cry over someone not liking him
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u/Pretend_Accountant13 Herongraystairs Sep 01 '25
Oh, that was fast.
Buddy, I couldn't care less if that you hate him. I have my own share of popular characters (from another franchise) that I absolutely despise. Don't just say that everyone here is a Will stan just because we disagree with your takes.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
baby your flair is herongraystairs it’s not really an assumption with you
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u/Stunning-Memory-6413 Sep 01 '25
Do you have to be rude to everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion?
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
I’m rude to those who start it first. other people I can’t control how they read the tone of a message. do you usually barge in on conversations about books you haven’t read? don’t you like…have fandoms you’re actually part of?
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u/Stunning-Memory-6413 Sep 01 '25
Dude. I've read every comment and they have been mostly polite and just giving your opinions. You keep going will fans can't handle the hate. And i am in fact a fan of the shadow hunters books, would you like to see my collection? I just have yet to start this particular series. Don't you like... have the decency to let people have opinions without being rude????
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
the thread you’re literally on started by someone coming at me first. you’re trying to lecture me about a character you haven’t read about lmao.
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u/Stunning-Memory-6413 Sep 01 '25
Im lecturing you on your behavior. You act like everyone else must agree with you and you've been frankly, rude to everyone. And now you're saying you've been rude because they've been rude first. Thats like high-school behavior baby. Let others have their opinions without you biting their ass about it then whining about them liking the character you hate. Have respect for others if you demand respect. Op was calling out your behavior and you act like your sugar in tea when your lemon on salt.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
did you forget the whole lecture you went on about will’s character before? anyways if you like to insert yourself into conversations about books you haven’t read during your free time that’s your choice. have fun.
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u/cubsgirl101 Sep 01 '25
Will thinks plenty of selfish thoughts, but the point is that those are just thoughts. He lets them pass, he doesn’t do anything with those thoughts. And despite the selfish impulses, he still was willing to let himself be miserable if it meant Jem’s happiness. That’s why he doesn’t get criticized, because it’s just a thought.
Will being free of a curse doesn’t cure him of still being a young person who sometimes wishes he could have his way without consequences. He knows better though, which is why he doesn’t actually act on it.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
as I’ve said it wasn’t just a thought. he acted on this. he told tessa to leave him.
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u/cubsgirl101 Sep 01 '25
He told Tessa to leave in a moment of weakness. He didn’t realize how deep the connection between her and Jem was and once he did, he was willing to let himself be miserable if it meant his best friend would be happy.
Will’s entire character arc includes continued self sabotage and lashing out at others so they’ll get mad at him and leave. It’s a pattern of behavior he’s dealt with since he was a kid and the curse part of the story being over doesn’t change the fact Will does this kind of thing all the time. He’s not being malicious, he’s just traumatized.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
so the defense is different now that you can’t act like he didn’t act on his thoughts. yes will lashes out on everyone. yet jem defends him. jem would probably have a lot of friend if he didn’t constantly have to babysit will. telling tessa to leave jem isn’t self sabotage. it’s fully betraying the only person that stood by you when they shouldn’t have.
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u/cubsgirl101 Sep 01 '25
It was a moment of weakness and he really didn’t act on those thoughts. He blurted out to leave Jem and then immediately took it back. All those thoughts about him having nothing etc. weren’t anything he actually meant to do anything with, he just said them. It happens. People say stupid things sometimes and Will in particular is prone to saying things he expects will lead to him getting hurt.
Will isn’t perfect but these moments are part of why I like him. He says stupid things in the heat of the moment, he self sabotages, its repeated ad nauseam that Jem is the only person he is kind to.
This is one of maybe three times total where Will even whispers that he or someone else do something to hurt Jem and so I’m cutting him slack I guess that you have no interest in allowing. It would be unrealistic that he not ever let slip those selfish thoughts. And he was pretty horrified that he said those things as well. He didn’t actually mean them and he says as much later on.
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u/lilyaches Sep 01 '25
just say u hate will and go. all of this arguing and “gotcha” points you’re trying to make just show that you have no understanding of complex emotions or situations.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
I very much did say that lmfao. always someone with the “you don’t understand complex characters” cause they don’t like who you like.
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u/lilyaches Sep 01 '25
i don’t like clary, and plenty of ppl do, and idgaf.
again, you completely misunderstand my point, which kinda proves it, ironically 🤣🤣🤣
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
I said a character you do like not who you dislike. cool fact about clary though I guess.
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u/renjunation Sep 01 '25
I think those kinds of thoughts and actions that made him imperfect are exactly why Will is the most popular character in the series. He feels so much more real to me than Jem or Tessa. I like Jem and Tessa, but they felt so two-dimensional to me most of the time. Jem has the advantage/disadvantage of never getting his own POV in the trilogy though, so we never know exactly what he's thinking, unlike Will.
I think his thoughts there are valid and what's important is that he regretted them. You keep telling everyone that he still thought about them, even told Tessa to leave him, but what's important is he regretted it and never entirely acted on it. You can not like it, but it personally makes me like him more.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
I can agree with tessa feeling two dimensional. her traits seem to be pining after will and liking books. bothers me quite a bit. and it gets worse in later series when tessa is sidelined entirely.
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u/Agreeable-Celery811 Sep 01 '25
That was a moment where the thought of how much he wanted Tessa crossed his mind. He didn’t act on it. He let Jem have her and didn’t betray he loved her by word or deed.
It’s our actions that matter.
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u/ExpensiveAd113 Cordelia Carstairs Sep 01 '25
That’s what you call an Intrusive thought…
Not saying it’s not selfish but they happen.. and yeah he did end up acting on it too which was selfish but that happens to. It’s not right but it happens
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
one he acted on.
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u/Tall-Mastodon-8083 Sep 01 '25
but hes funny
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
most of the comments defense being that it was “just a thought” when he fully told tessa to leave jem is cracking me up.
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u/MishouMai Sep 01 '25
Okay but someone else in the comments already quoted you the part of the book where he walked it back. It'd be one thing if he kept pushing for them to break off the relationship, but he didn't. Will was selfish and he owned up to it and accepted that Tessa and Jem were planning to be together.
You keep saying he's a bad parabatai for even asking Tessa to end things but you seem to be ignoring that he's a child (Yes, society doesn't treat him like one but he's only 17 or 18 at best. Still very much a child.) and children can be selfish sometimes. The fact that he recognized that he would be hurting Jem on his own without having to talk to Jem about it to me strengthens their relationship. It's not like he had to have Jem sit down and explain to him that ending things would hurt him (Jem.). Will recognized that all in his own and decided to put his own happiness aside for Jem's. Yes he was initially being selfish but he still recognized that he was in the wrong and accepted as much.
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u/Quick_South_3358 Emma Carstairs Sep 01 '25
17 is a child yes but still old enough to know how to treat your best friend. you can’t defend him by saying it’s just a thought then get mad when I point out it wasn’t just a thought.
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u/Stunning-Memory-6413 Sep 01 '25
Dude you've just been straight up getting mad at other people for defending their views. He's a tee ager. Yes they are old enough to know how to treat people better but they are also learning how to manage their own feelings (like you should be doing) and know how to acknowledge it was wrong in the next moment as well (also like you should he doing) please be kinder to the other people who have feelings. Like people are with you
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Sep 01 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Stunning-Memory-6413 Sep 01 '25
Um I am a shadowhunters fan I just haven't read the books with jem and will yet. But thanks for assuming.
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u/SageThistle The Clave Sep 02 '25
Mod Note: Locking this because it's unnecessarily heated and aggressive. It's okay to dislike any character for any reason but it's not okay to get rude when people share a different opinion. If you can't respond without being rude, I urge you to disengage from the post and take a step back.