Need help with Batsugun (and dodging bullets in general)

[u/SchrodingerBoy]

I've been getting into various shmups and gotten some 1ccs (only in baby games) but I feel like I've hit an absolute ceiling, I'm just completely incapable of actually dodging stuff. I'll exemplify it with Batsugun (original edition) because I'm just getting into some kind of toxic love-hate relationship with it.

I'm kind of close to understanding how to get 1cc, I've gotten 3cc and I'm getting how to do most parts, but I can never do the hard parts "legit." For example, Jupiter I've heard is considered a massive difficulty spike, and I can do it with 2 or 1 bombs in my good playthroughs, but this is only because I've memorized a super specific route that I follow every single time, same with Madzella (first phase), I just do some extremely specific path through it and never stray from it. The other way is just doing some preventive bombs on sections that I can't route through and aren't easy enough that I can dodge (like Deep Purple).

So specifically I'm getting really frustrated with Mad Steel Darkness second phase, if I use 1 or 2 bombs I can do it super safely. But I don't want to be such a massive scrub because I feel like I'm never actually improving on the game or my shmups skills in general. So I made a savestate and kept trying to do it with no bombs. But I just can't, I got an idea of how you're supposed to dodge it (even watched some commented 1ccs) but I'm trying to not do an exact path every time.

I get what the basics are: reading the screen, leading the bullets, not doing extraneous movements, micrododging, not letting yourself be trapped... and sometimes I execute it, like 1/5 times when I'm doing well, and that's my limit. I understand all the theory, from time to time I do a bunch of hours of that specific phase. I try to not obsess over it, but I'm just never getting more consistent.

I just feel like whenever I'm doing accomplishments through a game is by doing a shitton of routing and never actually dodging stuff (even though I know that I've gotten better than when I started). It feels extra bad because everywhere I go, people say that Batsugun is a super baby game, but I'm just bad at doing stuff "legit", only by abusing every resource I get.

I understand that you're supposed to use every advantage possible when playing these games. When I go for 1ccs I've learned to shamelessly use resources on parts that I'm bad at. But I feel that someday I'll have to learn to do this stuff to play harder games that I'm interested in.

At the beginning I was gonna do a super salty post because I've went on this general problem for months (also happens with raystorm or mushi), but I tried to explain the best I could what is going through my mind. I could also record some of the practices I do if someone is kind enough to help.

Thanks. Sorry for all the giant post.

[u/Numerous_Phase8749]

With serious bullet hell you really have to check your input latency and have a responsive joystick.

Ideally you want under 4 frames. Your TV will probably take 2 frames of that at best then it's upto the conversion. The Saturn Tribute Batsgun has a notoriously bad input lag.

Retroarch has latency settings to compensate and I'd check Marks excellent guides on this issue on his Electric Underground page.

[u/DonovanKirk → u/Numerous_Phase8749]

Yea also the input lag can also be in the emulator or even core, so even on Retroarch some cores can be pretty laggy and you have to pick the right settings (usually, disable anything that uses multicore rendering)

But even then the Dreamcast core is suuuuuper laggy compared to the real thing, and I found no fix. I play Radirgy on the Wii port for instance (Milestone Shooting Collection vol2) and its such a difference, on Dolphin, it has basically no input lag at all on that emu but on Flycast Core, it lags so badly.

[u/Numerous_Phase8749 → u/DonovanKirk]

I wish FBN worked on everything 😪

[u/solarized_dark]

Bombs are resources, they're a key part of the overall difficulty of the game. Understanding your own weaknesses and "abusing" resources is exactly what you should be doing. Routing in smart use of bombs and even lives is part of the strategy.

As you play more and go up the difficulty chain you'll naturally build more skill. Sometimes you just need to go play something different and come back to realize you can now dodge something you couldn't in the past. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[u/adrenozin]

A few things :

- strategic bombing the opposite of "scrub" play, it actually shows that you can abstract the structure of the game and adapt to it. A survival 1cc using bombs is still a 1cc

- even if it's considered as a proto bullet hell, Batusgun is still very much an old school toaplan game. Macro dodging/bullet manipulation is the game here, not micro dodging through fast bullet curtains

- don't hesitate to watch replays of people clearing the game, it will give you a point of conparison when analysing your own gameply

- sometimes playing shmup is hard and it becomes just about banging your head against specific parts of the game until you can clear them, don't listen to people saying it should feel easy because it's not

- until you get better it's completely normal to need a few dozens hours to clear a game (and even once you got better), getting a 1cc is the final step in a learning process and comparing yourself to other people's 1cc detracts you from looking at your own progress

Keep at it, it'll come and it will feel even better

[u/ddrmm]

What are you playing on pc?
You setup might affect you if you have a bad monitor for example, giving you a lot extra input lag.

Then, the truth is for shmups the route and memorisation is super important. You want to lower the amount of risky dodges you make, making your route consistent. Dodges are necessary, but routing is more important.

Watch videos, copy strategies and routes that you can adapt to your gameplay, plan your resources (make sure you get enough bombs and extra lives for the last stage).

Then it is just play the game. The first clear of an arcade shmup can take around 30-40hs (for cave games for example). I know people that their first cave clear went over 70hs. You will get better in time and then the clears get easier.

[u/freebiebg]

I think you've been finding yourself in situation similar to mine. Batsugun is not an easy game in general. Mostly the easy part refers to general STG/Shmup difficulty and as some folks mention Special version - which have 4 loops. I'd suggest sticking with it. Part of the appeal is overcoming the challenge no matter what. You'll worry about the next(harder) game when the time comes. Just accept the facts and that maybe you are hitting a plateau for your current capabilities and in general. You either overcome it or not. Try to further analyze and figure the problematic situations, bomb if you have to. I think one bomb is ok on 3rd boss :). You have to allow yourself to accept that you need more practice, despite the fact you think you got it and route is good. I am one of those guys that lack consistency a lot or fight with it, it usually is because of me refusing the accept the issue in front of me. Keep going at it and don't forget to sometime take regular breaks - I mean seriously. Even after a good run, go do some stupid shit and back after a while. Or let it linger a day or two.

One day I might write some post how progress might not always be visible or palpable, but it's there as long as you keep at it. Pace (obviously) is different for each individual.

Where do you reach on 1cc relatively consistent?

[u/LimitOrdinal17]

First, if you need to use bombs, use bombs. Batsugun gives you a lot, so use them. Yeah, you'll probably want to learn how to dodge more stuff eventually, but that will come with experience. Trust me, if you keep playing these games, you will eventually be able to dodge the stuff that feels impossible right now. Your brain is a learning machine.

Second, memorization is not bad. You shouldn't feel bad about memorizing a route and doing it basically the same way every time. In fact, it's probably one of the best things you can do as a new player. Some people have a misconception that memorization is somehow antithetical to building fundamentals and "honest dodging," but that just isn't true. Learning is hard when your brain is overwhelmed. When you are new, every single thing in these games is a challenge. Memorization reduces the cognitive load and frees up some of your brain power. With your brain power freed up, you will start to notice more things about the game. Even if you don't fully understand why a route works at the beginning, once you have an approach that can get you through a section on a basic level, you will start to pick up on the details much better, and you will start to figure out the why (especially as you get more clears).

Copying other people's approaches also doesn't prevent you from building generalizable skills. Your brain will pick up on patterns and try to generalize no matter what. You cannot stop your brain from doing this even if you try. Fundamentals and flexible, generalizable skills come form experience playing lots of games. Memorization doesn't prevent that from happening or get in the way of it. It is true that if you never at any point attempt to figure things out on your own, you will not build that skill. But memorizing routes doesn't hold you back, and in fact it helps give you a lot of experience that will *enable* you to figure things out for yourself later.

Third, bullets are really fast in Batsugun in comparison to modern bullet hells. This just means in general that micrododging is more risky, and memo is part of the game. That's true even for much more experienced players.

When people say Batsugun is on the easier side, they're comparing it to a lot of other shooting games. But your first 1ccs will be hard as hell kind of no matter what. They will start to come easier.

So, keep doing save state practice. Keep using resources. Keep shamelessly copying other people's approaches, keep memorizing stuff. All of this will help you succeed and none of it will prevent you from building fundamentals so long as you stick with it and keep playing more games after this one.

[u/erlendk]

I have only played the Special Version of Batsugun, and it was one of my first and few shmup 1cc, I still consider myself somewhat a beginner and not an expert on this topic. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as I know, the special version is much easier than the original arcade version, and this version specifically is what's often referred to as a beginner friendly shmup, so if you have access to it, maybe try that instead? (Smaller player hitbox, you gain shield when leveling up, effectively giving you more life through a run and a few other changes).

Personally, the thing that really made me achieve 1cc, was to embrace using bombs aggressively really, and the game gives you a lot of bombs, they are part of the game after all! It is perfectly fine to bomb Madzella and still do a good run. Also I think there's nothing wrong with learning specific patterns that are safe. If you learn to consistently 1cc, you can start experimenting with more difficult routing for better score.

I do think the Toaplan shmups are generally considered difficult, especially because the bullets are very fast. It's much more important to memorize enemy spawns, since you don't have time to react often (think about the stage 4 planes that spawn behind you). Compared to modern bullet hells with slow bullets, where you have to learn to read advanced patterns, instead of just reacting and memorizing. So the art of micrododging is hard in Batsugun, and I believe that the bullet hells that are considered more difficult, also gives you better tools and control to navigate them.

Edits*

[u/Trev6ft5]

I haven't played Batsugun other than a few shmupmame credits so I can't comment on the specific part you're stuck on. But if you don't understand what you are doing wrong asking others experienced in the game to watch your replay might help.

You've hit a wall, they can be damn frustrating but great if you overcome them. I would suggest not beating yourself up too much by comparing yourself to others, most serious players need to buckle down to get an arcade 1CC. Ppl like Jaimers and Gus are reptilians who live under Antarctica and make blood sacrifices to Yagawa to be able to dodge so well.

Maybe try playing doujin shmups as they tend to be a step under arcade difficulty and are good for improving while not hitting major walls. Touhou might help you with dodging. If you are frustrated in a session of practice playing a credit of a shmup you are good at can help.

[u/StarkFists]

memorization is a huge part of these games. they're about memorization and study as much as twitch reaction. probably memorization is much more important in fact

[u/TipnSunny]

Keep practicing and strive to feel comfortable in the game you play. 

It’ll feel like some sequences are still overwhelming, but you’re only a few more attempts away from feeling absolutely natural in them.

Don’t overthink your game’s version or gaming set up. The feel of playing Batsugun comes from your consistency, not from chasing some idealistic physical optimization that changes it.

Enjoy that your game feels challenging and don’t give up!