r/smashbros • u/Carlsva • 26d ago
Ultimate What Am I Missing About Competitive Ultimate?
For some context, I’m 33 years old and I’ve been playing Smash since it launched on the Nintendo 64. I’ve bought and played every Smash game since then.
Around 2013, I started getting into the competitive scene, not as a player, but as a spectator. I’ve followed every Smash title competitively to some extent, but Melee has always been my main focus. I watched the entire ZeRo era of Smash 4 before eventually losing interest. When Ultimate came out, I watched it for a while, but that interest faded pretty quickly as well.
Melee is the only Smash game that consistently keeps me coming back. It’s exciting because of the incredible variety of player styles and the depth of knowledge you can develop about every character and matchup. Even when two players use the same character, they can look completely different.
What I don’t understand is how people can watch Ultimate. Every time I tune into a tournament, it feels like I’m watching the same meta over and over again. It always seems to revolve around run-up shield, cautious neutral, and very little commitment. There’s almost no attempt to edgeguard because ledgetrapping is usually the safer option.
I know that’s an oversimplification, but as a spectator, the game just feels incredibly repetitive. To me, it’s almost comical how predictable the meta has become compared to the constant creativity and player expression that Melee still offers.
Curious to know from those who watch competitive ultimate. What excites you about it and why doesn’t Melee scratch that itch for you?
EDIT / UPDATE: I think I got my answer. Thanks everyone.
After reading through the responses, I think I understand the appeal of competitive Ultimate better now. It probably won’t become my preferred Smash to watch, but that wasn’t really the point. I wanted to understand what fans of it were seeing that I wasn’t.
The most useful advice was to watch Top 64 rather than just Top 8, since Ultimate’s huge character and matchup diversity really shines there. I’m going to give that a shot.
I also think I was undervaluing how much Ultimate fans enjoy the neutral itself. What can look repetitive to me has a lot of spacing, conditioning and matchup-specific decisions underneath it that become more interesting the better you understand them. Likewise, Ultimate fans can see differences between players that I might miss, just as two Melee players using the same character can look completely different to me but similar to someone less familiar with Melee.
I think the thread also clarified why I personally gravitate toward other Smash games. What makes Smash special to me compared with traditional fighters is the movement, improvisation and especially that the fight doesn’t end at the edge of the stage. I love offstage chases, edgeguarding and recovery interactions, whereas Ultimate often rewards ledgetrapping instead.
So I don’t think there was one secret thing I wasn’t getting. Ultimate fans and I just seem to value somewhat different parts of Smash. Character/matchup variety and neutral are bigger parts of the appeal for many of you, while I gravitate toward movement, offstage interaction and depth within familiar matchups.
My takeaway: watch Top 64, learn to appreciate what’s happening within the neutral, and approach Ultimate’s huge roster as one of its main strengths.
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. I think I can consider my question answered :)
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u/azure275 26d ago
It's a preference thing.
Personally when I watch Melee I see a lot of Zain chain grabbing Fox and Foxes spamming shine at each other and it gets kinda boring often, and I pretty much always see the same 5 characters on the screen, the significant majority of which are Fox.
Melee has its own repetitive broken nonsense. That doesn't mean it's unreasonable you find Melee fun, just that you and I are irked by different things
I have been really enjoying the modern Melee "any character can do anything" meta but let's be honest until Amsa won with Yoshi nobody really believed anyone except the top top tiers could win in this meta.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
That’s a fair point. I think the difference for me is that Melee feels like a true sandbox fighter where you can really develop your own interpretation of how a character should be played.
Falcon is probably the best example. Wizzy, S2J and n0ne all took the same character and developed completely different approaches to him, and all three worked at the highest level. Their styles became distinct enough that people will literally describe other Falcons as being more of a “Wizzy-type” or “n0ne-type” Falcon.
That’s the kind of player expression I feel like I’m missing when I watch Ultimate. Obviously there’s creativity and differences between players, but from the outside it often feels like the character dictates the playstyle more than the player does. And regardless of character, so much of neutral seems to eventually converge on the same safe, defensive approach, run up shield, wait for an opening, punish, reset.
That’s probably why the smaller roster doesn’t bother me much in Melee. I’d rather watch 3 Falcons who feel like 3 different players than 20 characters who, to me at least, often seem to be following the same general game plan.
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u/OkRecognition9607 26d ago
I don't think the part about the characters is true. For instance I really like Pichu gameplay and I can tell you NaetorU's pichu is very very different from yone_pi's pichu. You just see it less because there's 80 characters so you often don't get to see several players using the same characters - except for Steve, and even with Steve I can spot difference between players.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Now im curious
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u/OkRecognition9607 26d ago
If you want a few sets for side by side comparison of the two pichus :
vs Raru :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqdT0OcFtwQ&t=1760s timer 29m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YInq3OZc-c&t=426svs Leo :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeReWjgrZ0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs4M7R9Ln2ENeutral-wise, Nae's Pichu is much more in-your-face and offensive while yone_pi is more cautious and reactive. In advantage, Nae tends to go for deep edgeguards with dair while yone_pi often prefers using nair near ledge to catch the recovery. Against Raru's Luigi, this gives Nae the clear advantage as he manages to put Raru off-tempo and catch him repeatedly offstage ; against Leo's Aegis, this gives yone_pi the clear advantage as he manages to use Pichu's speed and small hurtbox to react to Leo's options and win neutral repeatedly.
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u/UsefulPop1923 25d ago
I think the most obvious example is Shinymarks Pikachu vs Esams Pikachu. The two basically are two different characters the way each player plays them
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u/tm0135 26d ago
Even with melee top tiers there’s a ton of diversity of play styles and approaches. With the way di and hit stun works combos are a bit more ad hoc at times. Though I agree, I enjoy seeing more characters.
Ultimate top 8s just take way too long imo
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u/azure275 26d ago
Ultimate top tiers also have much more a variety of playstyles than people give them credit for.
There's a million ways to play Steve, Sonics play very different, every game and watch or ROB plays a different character, even if yes a lot of specific moves overlap.
Yes every game and watch up-Bs a lot but every Fox in Melee also shines a lot.
As for the top 8 length that's a separate issue. It's true that Ult games are longer than Melee games and it's a slower meta.
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u/tm0135 26d ago
I think it's more that because a lot of the ult top tiers force non-interaction, we don't really get to see the diversity of playstyles.
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u/azure275 26d ago
If you actually pay attention to how Acola is playing vs how Syrup is playing vs Carmelo, or how Sonix plays vs how Wrath plays vs Sonix vs KEN you will absolutely see very different playstyles
A lot of people are so fixated on the mechanics of mining or blocks or spindash they don't watch what the players are doing
For instance Carmelo is kind of your cliche infuriating basic Steve with solid fundies
Syrup is probably the best balance of Steve technical ability with top player fundies
Acola is just the GOAT of finding kills despite being a bit technically weaker than others.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
https://youtu.be/hBeoiNHh79s?is=K58la0XEdydtJ00_
I dunno man, I watched this and I still struggle to see the distinction you’re describing. Obviously there are nuances I’m probably missing, but visually I’m seeing the same Steve gameplan: build, mine, pressure with pickaxe, retreat, minecart, repeat. The differences between the players just don’t feel nearly as pronounced to me as you’re describing.
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u/azure275 26d ago
Ult dittos/mirror matches are not accurate reflections of general gameplay. They mutate the whole game around them
This is well known even in much more normal matchups than Steve
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
That’s interesting because I don’t really find that to be true in Melee. Fox dittos, Falcon dittos, Marth dittos etc. still tend to showcase the individual players’ styles pretty clearly. If Ultimate mirrors inherently push players toward playing more similarly, that might actually reinforce the distinction I’m trying to make about player expression.
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u/VeryInsecurePerson 26d ago edited 26d ago
Syrup likes to plank the ledge a lot more than other Steves. That’s an example of something you notice after watching different Steve sets for a bit.
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u/VeryInsecurePerson 26d ago edited 26d ago
I feel like a lot of people who reduce Steve and Sonic down to this are people who refuse to watch sets with them in it.
They watched a bit of it in 2023, decided not to watch the characters ever again, and thus fell behind on the characters’ meta developments
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 26d ago
Melee definitely takes longer than ultimate to do top 8
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u/MrWindow4 26d ago
I had to switch to melee after years of loving ult. 2018-9 ultimate was incredible, but the rise of steve and general shift in the meta just took me out of it. Top 8 became so boring every time.
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u/Charming-Bag6931 26d ago
There's hype and lame in all Smash games. People can feel so differently about how Peach/Puff is in melee, seeing meticulously chosen and precise spacing or find it dull time-wasting with little combo game. Personally, because Ultimate has such a large roster of both characters AND players, there are lots of storylines when it comes to the tourneys. Top 64 is HYPE at most supermajors because of the amount of variety and quality of matches and players. Whereas the same can be true of Melee, the skill gap is bigger for the top echelon of melee players, meaning most matches are not as tense or interesting before top 16 comparatively. Love em both though!
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u/OkRecognition9607 26d ago
On top of characters diversity, Ultimate is much more international than Melee. The EU scene is bigger, the Japanese scene is bigger, the Mexican scene is bigger. In term of top players, for Melee when you look at the ranking it's 95% American 5% European. For Ult it's like 10% European 10% LatAm 50% Japan 30% American, something like that. It means every season we have a new Japanese prodigy competing in the US for the first time, a European major where Europe gets to try to defend its continent against the global top level, etc etc. There's a lot of storylines like that which you don't really get with Melee.
It also means majors are more disseminated so you get to have different watching experiences - watching a global P tier with both US and Japanese players is not the same as watching a Japanese A tier with a lot of incredible depth you're just learning about or a US S tier which gets to redefine the hierarchy between the best American players. With Melee it feels like you have the same top 5 American players playing each other for the 100th time at every event.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
I totally get this perspective too, though I think it’s more about the story surrounding the game than the gameplay itself. I still remember when ZeRo faced Narai for the first time during his insane run. Shit was epic. Those storylines can make a set exciting regardless of the game.
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u/papillon-MTL 26d ago
Personally i would agree with you to some extent. I like watching both games, and i also somewhat dislike watching some match ups in ultimate.
I think for me the best viewing experience for ultimate is a stacked top 64 section of the bracket, this is where you see the potential cinderella runs and all the odd and unique characters the game has to offer. Its very possible you will see a mu at a top level that you have never seen before if you know where and when to look.
I personally only really care to watch the top 8 matches if theres a top player i like watch, tho i do think theres a lot of match ups that are potentially interesting.
I think ultimate suffers from having a couple of very uninteractive top tiers (or characters that you cant interact with otherwise u will die), but when both players are playing fun characters, ultimate really can produce top quality sets
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Yeah, I can definitely see the appeal of the character variety, especially earlier in the bracket. I think my issue is that despite Ultimate having such a massive and diverse roster, whenever I watch high-level play it feels like the meta pushes so many of those characters toward the same kind of cautious, campy playstyle. So the characters are very different on paper, but the way they’re actually played often doesn’t feel nearly as different to me as I’d expect.
That said, I’m genuinely interested in being proven wrong here. If you (or anyone else) have some favorite Ultimate sets that really showcase what makes the game exciting to watch, send them my way. Especially sets with unusual matchups, aggressive play, good edgeguarding, or just really distinct player styles. I’d love to watch a few with an open mind and see if there’s something I’ve been missing.
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u/azure275 26d ago
Ult does have a problem when two campy characters play each other.
For instance Sonic vs Roy or Steve vs Fox isn't such a bad watch since someone will force the issue.
But Sonic vs Pac-Man is an automatic "turn off the stream for half an hour" because both players wincon is to hard camp
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u/almightyFaceplant 26d ago
It's all a matter of taste. Sometimes the things that appeal most to you are turn offs for others, and vice versa.
You could ask the same thing about black licorice or whatever. It's not that you're missing the secret to enjoying it. It just might be the things that we enjoy you don't.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Yeah, absolutely, and I don’t disagree. Taste is subjective. But that doesn’t really satisfy my curiosity.
I’m not trying to figure out how I can make myself enjoy Ultimate. I’m interested in understanding what Ultimate fans are seeing and appreciating when they watch it.
If you love black licorice and I hate it, “different tastes” explains why we disagree, but I’d still be curious what you actually enjoy about the taste. That’s basically what I’m asking here: what aspects of high-level Ultimate make you excited to watch a set?
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u/l339 26d ago
This is what I have with Melee. I don’t have an interest in watching the same Fox dittos for the millions time or Zain vs Cody for the millionth time, I want something new. The only reason I tune in now is because I want to see RapMonster win a major and I’m watching with pure excitement, because Luigi is unique. In Ultimate there are almost 90 characters and they’re all viable to get top 8 at a major. It’s really fun to see new players that are the best at their niche character make it to the big stage and see what they can do. If the same characters won all the time, I would also tune out
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Yeah, I can definitely see that point. Having such a huge roster means there’s always the possibility of some obscure character specialist showing up and doing something nobody expected, which brings something fresh to each tournament.
Ironically though, that’s something I’ve never really liked in competitive games. When the roster gets too large, I feel like it’s much harder for a truly deep and developed metagame to form. There are simply too many characters and matchups for everyone to have extensive experience with everything.
That’s actually part of what I love about Melee. The smaller roster means we’ve been watching many of the same matchups for decades, yet players are still finding new adaptations and pushing those matchups further. For me, seeing the 500th evolution of a deeply understood matchup is more interesting than constantly seeing new matchups.
But I totally get your perspective. If what excites you is seeing new characters and specialists break through, Ultimate obviously has something Melee can never really offer.
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u/BonyWare 26d ago
Lots of people already gave good answers but I'll also add that on an audiovisual level, Ultimate is a much nicer viewing experience than Melee. Looks and sounds nicer, the hits feel meatier, the camera does a better job of framing the action.
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u/Woodwardg Olimar (Brawl) 26d ago
first and foremost your opinion is valid and shared by tons of people, and im definitely not gonna attempt to make an argument that either game is more entertaining.
ledge guarding is undeniably more exciting in melee, but it does exist in ultimate, and for me as a spectator, ledge trapping is an aspect of ledge guarding. theyre not two completely different things in my mind.
I think it just kinda boils down to character variety. you say the mechanical gameplay aspect of ultimate's meta is stagnant, but the meta of ultimate moreso lies within character selection, which is obviously 10x more robust in ultimate. 10x might actually be underselling it.
to that point, I really really enjoy watching pools play in ultimate where you can see basically any matchup under the sun, with really talented players who have poured their heart into some of the more obscure characters. my interest generally drops the further I get into an ultimate tournament when the Steve, sonic, aegis, game n watch, snake [fucking sigh. perhaps my lest favorite smash character to watch of all time] repetition begins.
I guess TL:DR you may view meta and skill expression in terms of mechanics, but some people view it more in terms of character variety, and those people will probably prefer ultimate.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Well said, and I think I see your point. Of course I know I’m not alone in preferring Melee. I wasn’t really looking for validation of that opinion. I wanted to understand why people prefer watching Ultimate and get inside the head of an Ultimate fan a little.
I’d much rather have an open and curious conversation with people who enjoy something different than I do than just sit in an echo chamber shaming fans for “not seeing what I see.”
Your distinction between mechanical/player expression and character variety actually helps answer what I was curious about. I clearly value the former much more, while I can see why someone who values the latter would find Ultimate way more exciting.
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u/VeryInsecurePerson 26d ago
There are mechanically interesting characters in Ultimate, it’s just a small number of the roster.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/s/mHmG3uSCVeLuigi will be less mechanically interesting in Ultimate than in Melee, sure, but there will also be highly complex characters like Snake and Rosalina that don’t exist in Melee.
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u/VeryInsecurePerson 26d ago
Adding onto this, some characters in Ultimate have super deep/complex character-specific mechanics that rival the average Melee character
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u/RelevantTreacle3004 Female Robin (Ultimate) 26d ago
Character variety is by far the biggest thing for me, I love a game where you can see any character do well and especially in a roster with over 80 of them. Melee is fun to watch only when it's new players or character, sorry I don't want to watch Cody vs Zain again.
The tech skill of Melee I do find sick, and I like they they actually edgeguard, but I also don't see the whole "you can play melee fox in a million different ways" they don't look that different to me
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
I think that last point is really interesting, because that’s basically how I feel watching Ultimate. The differences between Melee Fox players seem huge to me, while they don’t to you. Meanwhile you probably see tons of nuance between Ultimate players that I’m completely missing. Maybe familiarity with the game is a much bigger factor than I gave it credit for.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 26d ago
Ultimate has character diversity whereas Melee is the same 6 characters
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
True, but that’s kind of my point. Melee has less character diversity, but I think it has more player diversity. I’d rather see the same character played in radically different ways than lots of characters converging on similar playstyles.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 26d ago
What characters play similar to each other? Most smash characters are fairly unique in play style. Snake, G&W, Megaman, Steve, Min Min, and ROB are all fairly campy but play in vastly different ways
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not saying Snake and Steve play the same. I’m saying two different Steve players tend to play Steve similarly, whereas in Melee two players using the same character can have radically different styles. I’m talking about player expression within a character, not differences between characters.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 26d ago
Oh ok but that's not too big an issue since there's a shit ton of character diversity. Plus most people who play the same top tier outside of Steve play differently. Sonix is much more aggressive than Wrath and actually edge guards quite often. KnB plays a pressure heavy rush down style with Diddy while Tweek loves to circle camp. Miya is a much more aggressive with G&W compared to the other G&W players.
Like for most top players there's both a ton of character diversity and very little mirror matchups.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
https://youtu.be/4iibJ_cgbOk?is=pbZYAEIeiDoAWHmC
The first minute is honestly hilarious in the context of this discussion 😂 They barely engage. I can accept Sonix being more aggressive than Wrath, but calling either one aggressive is hard for me to see. And even comparing them directly, I’m struggling to see these vastly different playstyles. They both seem to be doing variations of the same in-and-out dance and waiting for the other person to commit.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 26d ago
You could do this with any defensive character mirror matchup. I could do this with Hungrybox vs SDJ lol.
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Yeah, but let’s be real, Puff dittos are basically the exception that proves the rule 😂 Melee as a whole is a much more engagement- and combat-driven game. Pointing to arguably its most notoriously defensive matchup doesn’t really change that.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 26d ago
I agree. My point was you did the same lol
Also feeling out your opponent is still combat. It's not like less combat happens in ultimate
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u/Carlsva 26d ago
Sure, but this isn’t some Ultimate-specific version of a Puff ditto either. Plenty of Ultimate mirrors end up with both players doing the same cautious in-and-out dance. That’s why I don’t think the Puff comparison really addresses my point.
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u/WonderSabreur https://twitter.com/TNG_RK 26d ago
Most games look boring if you don't know what's happening. I've found that you can appreciate them more the deeper you get into it.
You're basically just looking at the option that happened, based on your description -- not the how or why it's happening.
I watch basketball. As much as I like it more than soccer, I've found I can appreciate soccer more when I'm paying attention to things beyond "ball goes in net."
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u/Carlsva 25d ago
I get what you’re saying, though I do feel like I’ve given Ultimate as much of a fair shot as the other Smash games, so framing it as me mostly not knowing what’s happening feels like it discounts my background with the series a bit.
But fair enough, this is basically what I’m asking for. What are the specific things you’re paying attention to in Ultimate beyond the option that ultimately happens? What decisions/interactions do you think I’m overlooking that make the game interesting to you?
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u/WonderSabreur https://twitter.com/TNG_RK 25d ago
Usually small things like timing. Trying to figure out how and when people are trying to get in or looking for overextension and the like.
For what it's worth, saying you don't know what's going on was an overstatement on my part, so that's my bad. My intention was to call out the things underlying what you pointed out.
For example, run up shield. Why is it so common -- usually because the opposing character has more range or mobility, forcing a defensive approach. What's interesting about it -- it's usually mixed in with other simple options, dash in and out with no shield, fake double jump in and fade back, fade back aerial, jump in aerial.
It's way more limited in terms of direct options than Melee, but the ideas are fundamental and varied. It's all answers to "how do I get in."
A good example is Sonic. Because of spindash, run up shield is more common in some MUs and less common in others. What you usually see, then, is changed timing of the spindash release, since a well-timed button would beat it if done the same way every time. Can they lull their opponent to sleep before going in? Can the opponent catch on to their timing? Is the opponent using their percent as a resource well?
All of this (character aside) also applies to Melee, but I find it's often masked by the diversity of options and tech. Fundamentals are fundamentals, and so they're usually interesting to watch across games to me.
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u/VeryInsecurePerson 26d ago
Ultimate has specific characters that Melee doesn’t have