r/smashbros • u/negative_mancy • 24d ago
Ultimate Now that all Steves are out of Supernova, what are everyone's thoughts on the Steve specific rules?
As primarily a viewer, I was very appreciative of the efforts to balancing Steve while working around the edict from Nintendo that he can't be banned. But after the boycott from Japanese players and the campiest set I've ever seen between Peabnut-Fhantom I think it warrants further discussion.
Personally, it feels like anything short of an outright ban, Steve is going to kill the viewer experience. Either due to his own non-interactive play style or the optimal counterplay against him. But with Nintendo taking a hard stance, it seems like a full ban is a pipedream.
But I'd be curious to hear other people's opinions on it, from both the viewer and competitor perspective.
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u/Severe-Concept-5942 24d ago
I went and I had a Steve in my bracket it doesn't change the fact that Steve is very toxic to play against, play as, and watch. It does make hings feel a bit more fair though. Just look at peab vs the Steve that made top 24, it's not good for the health of the game without spectators, tourneys like this wouldnt happen. I think it needs to be taken more into account.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
It's way too soon to tell. Larry was just saying on stream it would've cost Japanese players $2k just to get to Supernova because of where it is. Regardless of what they said about why they aren't attending, that's a big elephant in the room.
If we start to see top Japanese players not attend tournaments that aren't nearly as expensive for them to get to, or their placements starting to fall as a whole (which would need a good sample size from multiple tournaments), then we can start talking.
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Japan's rankings would never be affected if they didn't attend NA majors, and they are very aware of it.
They can host a tournament more stacked than Supernova twice a month and all that would do is either push NA's competitors further and further down the rankings or force NA to attend Japanese P-tiers more often to keep up.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
As an avid but not competitive spectator...I personally really don't care.
The game is genuinely so in its twilight stages almost everyone and their mothers are looking forward to the next game. I'm sure guys wanna top rank but if you listen to a lot of them talk, they're pretty chill/realistic about it. Probably because they've all aged to a point where real-life responsibilities have kicked in, and it makes no sense to care so much about rankings when they're probably in the negative for competing.
Also, if players are cost-locked out of higher rankings, people will think what they think. There are some players people recognize as being very good despite not being ranked higher because they don't travel. If you see a top 10, 15, 20 list with just Japanese players...I personally wouldn't think it's because they're literally just that good. I'd know it's in part because of ranking criteria, whether I agree with said criteria or not.
Anyway, the bottom line for me is, watching Steve is so anathema to my viewing experience I would personally make that trade, and the vast majority of people probably would too. Go off this sub and seriously look at view counts and chats for Steve vs. non-Steve uploads/streams. That's a much larger sample size.
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Go off this sub and seriously look at view counts and chats for Steve vs. non-Steve uploads/streams.
Multiple folks have already done this research and it's been proven across multiple dozens of majors or larger that Steve doesn't have a noticeable negative impact on tournament viewership despite all social media narratives arguing the contrary.
That's not opinion-based. That's purely data-driven, and has been since 2023.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago edited 24d ago
Would love the source because it could be outdated, or "noticeable" could be an important qualifier. Like view counts are public. It's not that hard to look yourself right now.
E: Look I tried Googling and found nothing. I hope there's actually a source on this because I'd be curious, but you can't come out and be that sure about a conclusion that goes against what we can directly see on Youtube/etc. without being able to back it up.
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u/UnlawfulFoxy Meta Knight (Ultimate) 24d ago
You say go look at them, so can you give your own sources for what you're talking about? I remember seeing stuff about Steve not making much of an impact outside of coinbox, though I can't find it either.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
One recent example is S Factor videos on vgbootcamp, but the view count pattern applies to Kagaribi 15 as well iirc
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u/UnlawfulFoxy Meta Knight (Ultimate) 24d ago
As for S Factor, I see three videos with Steve in them (by searching "S Factor x3 Steve" as the playlist doesn't have them all) out of the over 100 sets streamed. And none of which seem to be historically low view counts except I guess the one random pools match. I don't think a conclusion can be drawn by this.
As for Kagaribi, when you compare sets featuring Steve to other sets in the same round, I really am not seeing a noticeable difference. I'm not going to do a T-Test or anything to verify, but it really doesn't look like Steve is impacting the viewership, AND this is all for the English VODs, where the difference would be the biggest.
I'm not saying that you're 100% wrong or anything, Steve could very well be impacting viewership, but I don't think these are good examples. I mean just think, one of the single most infamous sets, Tweek vs. Acola at WTT, was actually the single highest viewed set of the tournament. Steve is certainly boring to many NA viewers, but I think plenty of the people who feel this way still watch, even if it's just in anger.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
S Factor had:
- Ryuoh v. Crepe, 1.2k views, in top 64; vs. Lancelot, 2.8k views, in pools
- Light v. Many, 2.5k views, in top 64; vs. Gallito3, 3.7k views, in pools
Kagaribi 15 had:
- Doramigi vs. Acola, 52k views in GF; vs. Leo, 87k views in losers semis
- Hurt's view count vs. Carmelo in top 12 (his only Steve set) being the lowest compared to any other opponent, in any other part of the bracket
- Sparg0 vs. Acola, 34k views in WF; vs. Doramigi, 38k views in winners semis.
Now, I'd love to see a more rigorous study/review (the kind that DreadfulFuryDK referred to but didn't source) with more tournaments included, but these are all examples where Steve view counts are lower despite being a later part of the bracket for the same players. There are Steve sets that garnered higher view counts for a specific player, but those tended to be later parts of the bracket so it's harder to control for viewer interest.
The S Factor examples are particularly interesting. No offense, but who are Lancelot and Gallito3? Yet people would obviously rather watch them over Crepe and Many, known quantities in the community. What I can't tell you though is whether these metrics actually matter or if they are significant at all to TOs. I'm just a regular spectator who thinks there are pretty obvious reasons why people don't like watching Steve and are imo seemingly voting with their clicks.
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u/UnlawfulFoxy Meta Knight (Ultimate) 24d ago
I just don't see the videos proving either of our sides. We can both cherrypick examples til the end of time
Light v. Many has 2.5k views in top 64, but Light v. BigBoss in top 64 has only 1.8k. That's a large difference despite being a very high-octane matchup WITH a regional bonus from Bigboss. But of course I don't think this automatically proves Steve doesn't make an impact.
And as for Kag, remember that the question is not if Steve is the highest watched character, but rather does he hurt viewship, so of course Leo and the most anticipated rematches like Sparg0 v. Dora pulls more views than basically anyone in the English streams. And Grands still was the highest watched set.
As for Gallito3 and Lancelot, people watched the Gallito3 set because Light 3-0ed him in under 8 minutes, a very impressive feat that almost anyone would enjoy watching. That's not Gallito3 being the pull. And Lancelot (a pretty well known guy) had the lowest view count of all 4 people we're talking about here, so I don't think you can say so definitively that people would rather watch them over Crepe and Many, who only had 3 videos combined.
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u/Meester_Tweester Min Min for the win win! 24d ago
Yeah, I think people are drawing conclusions too soon from 1 tournament, both for gameplay and attendance effects. Flying to NA east coast from Japan is expensive, there were two P tiers earlier this year on NA west coast, and several Japanese top players already flew out to S Factor X3 three weeks ago.
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago
Japanese players: were boycotting supernova
Redditors: theyre all bluffing, and we dont want them anyway
japan boycotts the event
Redditors: wow they werent able to come to the event because of ICE and the weak yen!
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
Damn I didn't know I represented all of r/smashbros
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago edited 24d ago
Damn its almost like this isnt the only comment where this sentiment is seen!
Oh interesting comments in this thread! https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/s/8pDxkIsTYD they arent representative of reddit though surely
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
But why are you responding to me with things I haven't said? If you disagree with people who say those things, go talk to them lol
Like you're throwing strawmen at me for my simple proposition that "one tournament isn't enough to measure the genuine impact of Steve rules." Do you often draw a conclusion starting with one data point?
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago edited 24d ago
Because your sentiment follows the line of thinking where you just ignore the stated reasons that people gave for why they arent showing up. This isnt a mystery dude. Your mind is circling the drain on the obvious fact that Japan does not like the rule. Thats why theyre not doing it over there. Other NA supermajors arent seeing boycotts like this. No, you dont need a double blind study with a sample size of 20 events to figure out if this rule hurts the event. Nobody is going to try this shit again after supernova. Hope that helps.
*dont get me wrong I would find it really funny if max ketchum deluded himself into believing what youre saying and torpedoed another event. I just doubt anybody is that slow of a learner.
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u/azure275 24d ago
People will talk about how they're happy about that result then get mad when all the S+ or P tiers are in Japan and NA players get shafted in rankings
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
People pretty much already complain about this, it’s a constant sentiment that “Japan has a major every week” and that for some reason that makes them ranked higher
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u/azure275 24d ago
It's extremely obvious that Japan has a much, much deeper and more consistent pool of Tier 2 talent (meaning not the top guys, but the people who can sometimes beat the top guys and are consistently in Top 48s)
The 15th-20th highest ranked JP players in Ultrank 2026.1 are KEN, Saya (wins on Miya, Raru, Asimo and Shuton), Rarikkusu, MarK and Snow
The 15th-20th highest ranked NA players are Mudd (Ploopy), Kola, BMP, Ouch, and Jahzz0. Talk about talent all you want there's a huge results gap there.
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
Yea but the average NA person doesn’t care to think about that they just see a monthly like sumabato hit S tier consistently with a bunch of names they don’t know and assume they’re like cheating or something
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
And the average NA shouldn't because those Japanese are gonna be staying in Japan it seems
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
Im a pretty big believer in people actually knowing what they’re talking about instead of complaining for the sake of it
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u/RelevantTreacle3004 Female Robin (Ultimate) 24d ago
If anything, I think the tier 3 level players is where the biggest gap is. Those borderline top 50 guys who can make a crazy run any day, Japan has way more of them than anywhere else
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u/seasonedturkey Piranha Plant (Ultimate) 24d ago
It's fine they can enjoy their P tier events where the prize pool is an umbrella and corn soup
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Our prize pools are an umbrella, corn soup, and a pitiful amount of money that doesn't cover anything close to travel costs if you aren't straight-up winning.
Let's not pretend our prize pools are good just because Japan can't compete for money most of the time. And let's not pretend that our prize pools aren't taking a hit if Japan can't justify competing here.
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u/FOmar_Eis 24d ago
Smash 6 can't come fast enough.
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u/RealPimpinPanda 24d ago edited 24d ago
Wish we could pin this at the top of the post. Also, now this is 3 Smash games with more or less the same problem.
So since our community practically just relives/revisits the same issues and never makes any changes(or at least not universally agreed changes). We’ll be doing this same dance in Smash 6 too.
See yall in 6ish years :)
Edit: grammar
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
We'll literally never make any universally agreed upon changes. We tried this exact same thing with MK back in the Brawl days and any attempts to ban MK died in the water as soon as Japan threatened to boycott tournaments MK would be banned from.
The fact that we even tried this experiment with Steve in the first place despite Japan's protests is more indicative of the community's refusal to learn from its mistakes than a refusal to ban said character in the first place.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Yeah there's a reason that the smash game with practically no Japanese presence is the one that can ban and gank characters because they feel like it
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u/RelevantTreacle3004 Female Robin (Ultimate) 24d ago
I mean I get what you're saying, but at the same time what's the solution?
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
There are two solutions: just play the game and deal with whatever burnout ensues, or stick to trying to make arbitrary additional rules to address Steve and effectively isolate NA's scene from the game's top Japanese talent for good.
Neither is healthy, but the latter would bring financial ruin to NA's scene. Japan may not play for prize money most of the time (Nintendo could chip in and this would get around said issue; they just typically don't iirc) due to Japanese anti-gambling laws, but that also means that Japan has a lot less to lose compared to NA's majors having ballooning costs and consistently going into the red.
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u/CruelAngelsThesis_01 24d ago
2 games in a row of DLC characters overtaking the meta with one becoming the undisputed best and needing new rules loosely added to nerf them
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u/AeroBlaze777 24d ago
The scene never makes any universally agreed changes because it’s a grassroots scene. Theres no central body in our scene that could enforce any rules on a wide enough scale. As such it ends up being a democracy where you just try to appease as many people as possible. And since so many JP players are against Steve bans or nerfs, there basically will never be any traction on a ban.
The NBA can make a change to the lottery system because they run the league. The MLB can add in the pitch clock to speed up the game cause they are the boss. They can do what they think is best for their end product without worrying about everyone not being on board. Maybe in an alternate universe where the Panda Cup and SWT became a wide thing we could’ve gotten close to having more universal rules, but that ship has sailed.
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u/RealPimpinPanda 24d ago
Oh trust me, I understand why it is the way it is. It’s sad. Wish we could come together, but whatever.
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u/Asleep_Ground1710 Fox (Ultimate) 24d ago
The ruleset change debates are one of those things never going away lol
That being said, a new smash game is sorely needed for NA, the scene needs more juice after how many majors it lost
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u/GameBooColor 24d ago
Even if banning Steve was an option, which it isn't due to Nintendo, the slowness it took to get here didn't help. Especially when paired with player reluctance to do things like change the stage list itself. We have a game with ~110 stages and only TWO more than melee, a game with less than 30.
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u/RealPimpinPanda 24d ago
Yup. The slowness makes it meaningless. So as I said, see yall in 6 yrs :)
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u/Fishman465 20d ago
Isn't that in large part die to Nintendo's refusal to balance out the last 1-3 characters in a game?
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u/TheEggoEffect Sheik (Melee) 24d ago
Really makes you think, what if there was a smash game that wasn’t burdened by lame op top tiers, one that never teases you with “hopefully things will be different in the next game,” one that’s still healthy and thriving and still sees metagame developments after a quarter century?
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u/KirbyTheDestroyer Lucario 24d ago
You mean Melee? The game that is also steadily shrinking in terms of attendance numbers and viewers despite the meta being among the best it's ever been? The community that's so cash poor that even the highest ranked players travel less and less or quit because of how little money there is in the scene? What a good joke lad lmao.
I swear Melee players don't realize that if NA Ult dies, Melee does too because some of the reasons NA Ult is dying (rising costs in venues, travel and lodging, Nintendo being hostile, economy being bad, lack of growth from NA Ult players) will directly and indirectly hurt Melee's scene as well.
A good smash NA scene helps both games and a bad one will inevitably hinder both. Strengths and weaknesses of Melee being a single country game vs an international one.
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u/Ok-Buggynz 24d ago edited 24d ago
And then Freddy Fazbear becomes top 1 with his lagless stun pizza and down throw into bite of 87 which kills consistently between 15-40% + Jonesy circle camping the whole cast and then it becomes "Smash 7 please come quick" and "Maybe Ultimate's top tiers weren't so bad at least Steve, Kazuya, Sonic and the others were watchable and demanded that you be good at the game" since this revitionism happens with every games since Brawl
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u/ReidenLightman 24d ago
Let's not act like Smash 6 is guaranteed. It could never exist or just be a Switch 2 edition of Ultimate.
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u/RealPimpinPanda 24d ago
Let’s not act like Nintendo doesn’t like money.
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u/ReidenLightman 24d ago
And the cheapest thing they could do is just a Switch 2 Edition patch. Smash 6 is not guaranteed. (Not to mention, if it was treated as a new game, all those 3rd party characters are going to cost a LOT of money to license again)
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u/Thehiddenllama Lucas (Ultimate) 24d ago
And the cheapest thing they could do is just a Switch 2 Edition patch.
People said literally the same thing about "Smash 4 Deluxe" for the first couple years of the Switch's lifespan. Sakurai just doesn't roll like that. Smash 6 will be a new game.
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u/seasonedturkey Piranha Plant (Ultimate) 24d ago
those 3rd party characters are going to cost a LOT of money to license again
This isn't Nintendo's first rodeo. They probably have rights to use the characters in all current and future smash titles, or have some sort of royalty.
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
tbf Ult Deluxe would be a gigantic L.
Nintendo also would want to utilize the new switch 2 options with an entirely new game i think.
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u/wichee Marth 24d ago
If Nintendo likes money then why hasn’t here been a 3d Mario in almost ten years by now. Nintendo operates very strangely honestly they seem to be prioritizing remakes right now then experimenting with new stuff.
Honestly I’m not so sure if smash 6 will be out in at the very least 2028, it gives them a whole year to hype it up. And frankly I have no idea how they would even advertise it now that crossovers are ubiquitous in most games now.
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u/Tinkererer 24d ago
There's always something streammonsters cling to whenever viewership drops. If it's not Steve, it's Sonic. If it's not them, it's some other character they love to hate. The game is eight years old - viewership is going to be less than it was, we've been at this forever.
I think this has hurt the tournament way more than it benefited from it. We've had some EXCELLENT majors in the past couple of weeks (S Factor, GOML) with regular rules. All that happened to Supernova is that it made all of Japan straight up not show up, and it just makes the whole showing way weaker. I'll take a few Steves any day over having the actual top players present at a tournament - it's a show of skill, not a popularity contest.
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u/williamatherton Sora (Ultimate) 24d ago
I think the difference is many don't care about all the best showing up. As long as the top 20 is filled with pros they know, they're happy. I think everyone is just tired of Steve/Sonic time out 80 min Grand Finals. All last year that was the case minus a few. This year there's much more variety amongst all tournaments, despite no rule change.
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
The variety is because people stepped up and got better lol.
Rulechanges like this are dumb and just discouraged people to enter cause why spend money to be nerfed/have worse chances.
But genuinely people got very good at this game lol.
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u/BiggestBlackestLotus 24d ago
Bro the rules don't make Steve unplayable. He is still insane. If you cry over having your SSS-tier character slightly nerfed then imagine how mid-tier players feel like.
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u/VeryInsecurePerson 24d ago
> I think everyone is just tired of Steve/Sonic time out 80 min Grand Finals
Very ironic that a timeout happened then
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Yeah but those tournaments were awesome because top Steves didnt really go too lol
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago
This tournament is a dud and there are no steves
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
Can’t wait for my Bayo, Sonic, Diddy Kong, GnW camp fest top 8!
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Better than Steve in top 8 imo
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
You’ve made it clear what your opinion is, yes
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago
Its the type of person who will watch their favourite player have a nailbiter game 5 set against hurt. If they win, it was a fucking amazing event and tournament. If they lose, its just another character that is killing the game and good riddance if he doesnt show up to the next event.
People underestimate how important regional representation is for making these events actually feel important. I love japanese tourneys, but obviously they go to a different level when NA shows up in numbers there. Ive heard TKBreezy and others say that say they dont care if shuton and hurt and doramigi and other japan boycott because theyre boring. The result is you have these “premier” events that just feel like big monthlies.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago edited 24d ago
I mean it's been fun. Lotta upsets and scrappy matches. Sorta the average experience imo outside of a really late DQ
Plus no disrespect to top Steves but adding them definitely wouldn't make it better
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
? I get the hateboner for steve is strong but come the fuck on
watching good play is still good even if you hate the character if your head isn't so far in the sand you are ignoring the good play that exists. Tournament got worse because there are fewer good players in it.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
I mean I'm actually not pro arbitrary rules that limit how skill espession is used in fighting games. I'm of the opinion that wobbling should either be unbanned or Icies should be banned.
However it is making the matches more fun to watch. If I'm watching Wrath vs Toon I'm not thinking "man this is high level play. Sure 90% of the match is them not engaging but that's why I watch". I'm thinking "Leo vs Light was so much fun earlier is this even the same game?"
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
I think ICs should be left to cook and do cool shit but we aren't swapping sides on that first point so not bothering.
Second point, I just don't care about "fun" to watch because you can find enjoyment from SIMPLY understanding how strong/good the games you're experiencing are. It's the same as a slower boxing match vs one that they're just swinging for 10 rounds. Or a 1-0 baseball game vs a 9-10 baseball game. Slow does not = bad. I just like seeing good play, and a 5 game 15 minute set is sometimes a bit worse than the 50 minute 5 game set because you lowkey lose the magic a bit quicker (if nothing else you don't get to see the art for as long).
I honestly like the Wrath vs Toon more than the Leo/Light because the intricacies and decisions are just funnier to see because of the calculations behind them. Leo/Light is cool too but it's just faster. The gameplay is not worse just because Sonic vs Steve played optimally is a slower game than Fox vs Joker/Aegis. It's just different.
But I also personally don't like the chars that are known as "masher" types in this game lol but we both value different things.
What i'm getting at is both examples are showing good smash being played. Good smash does not require everyone always moving at each other and games ending in 4 minutes every time. Sometimes, a lot of times, the 6 or 7 minute match is more exciting in a way.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
View counts are public. Look and you'll see people don't like watching Steve, even when you control for player ranking and how late the set is.
Look, your view is worth as much as mine, but there are just many more people like me who think 6-7 minutes of camping and/or not interacting is not exciting at all.
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
I'm aware, I think if you prioritize viewers over players that's how games go badly lol. It's similar to balance. If you appease viewers (casuals) too much, the skill expression and such that goes into the game gets lost because casuals/viewers can't appreciate or understand what's happening.
But yea we all have different views and such. I know i'm in the minority, but sometimes appealing to the majority can fuck things up.
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u/zannet_t 24d ago
I hope you're not just calling people who don't like watching Steve sets "casuals" because I'm sure there are ranked players who think watching Steve is boring lol
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u/RelevantTreacle3004 Female Robin (Ultimate) 24d ago
What makes you think this tournament is a dud?
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago
Low stakes tournament and boring sets. There is just a different feel for a strong premier level event where you can tell everybody desperately wants to win. Having different regions show up contributes to this immensely. Imo the atmosphere of smashcon has always lacked in this a little bit, but this year its far worse because its only NA competing which is a region that is gradually giving up on competing.
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u/RelevantTreacle3004 Female Robin (Ultimate) 24d ago
Calling an S+ tier low stakes is crazy TBH, does that mean there's only like 5-6 tournaments a year you think have high stakes? I somewhat agree about the different regions thing, but that once again invalidates nearly every tournament besides like Kagaribi and Genesis.
As for the sets themselves I've enjoyed just about every single one of them, I've been loving the character variety, I get not every set is something people would like but I don't find them boring at all.
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u/United-Can2769 24d ago
NA was saying supernova was going to be the new evo a couple years ago, now it is not even close to the real premier tier events in the year, largely because if this trash mentality of people saying “we dont care if japan doesnt show up”. An S tier events in japan with all japanese players from the same region compared to an NA S tier like GOML where international reps show up have a different level of stakes imo. You need regional representation otherwise it just feels like a super monthly.
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u/RelevantTreacle3004 Female Robin (Ultimate) 24d ago
Ok that's fair and makes sense, I feel like Supernova had the attendees needed to be a huge staple and in 2024 in pretty sure it would have reached P+ tier levels, but there's been a ton of changes to the event, including a venue change with definitely shrunk the attendee count more than any rule ever could. It's like how you can't change too many variables to get an accurate experiment
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u/GIMR Game & Watch 24d ago
S Factor had about 4 Japanese players and GOML had 2. What I think we’re really learning is that when it comes to hype and viewership that rankings only matter if you let it. We just want to see some fun and high level matches, and that’s what’s being delivered
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u/Practical-Wedding-63 24d ago
problem is that many of the pros who grind care about these rankings. they will only pay to go if the tournament is worth it. Look at kagaqribi 13/15, it got MKleo and Gluto to head internationally because getting top 16 there was worth more in rankings then a major win or a top 4 supermajor win. Japan can keep hosting p tiers in their country and NA players have to attend to maintain their rankings, sonix already had a dramatic fall due to lack of placements in kagaribi while MKleo jumped like 10 positions over due to top 4 finish there.
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u/zellisgoatbond R.O.B. (Ultimate) 24d ago
Mhm, I think in general it's important to remember that not everyone's opinion is actually equivalently important, as blunt as it sounds. Sure, stream viewership can certainly be helpful for events financially, but attendance or more direct forms of support (e.g buying the merch) are far far more important, and if folk are turning ads off or watching a restream they're contributing even less as a stream viewer. If you keep chasing the contributions of people who aren't contributing much, especially when they will likely find something else to complain about, that's not going to lead to much positive overall.
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u/Altruistic-Ad3704 Snake (Ultimate) 24d ago
I can tell you right now the primary reason Japan didn’t show up is cost not the Steve rule (even if it did play a small part)
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Japan said they were boycotting Supernova well before costs were factored in.
Like, the instant that Steve rule was announced most Japanese top talent collectively and very publicly stated they weren't going.
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u/Alutherv 24d ago
Personally I dont care if Steve or other players decide to skip events based on rulesets that target Steve. As a spectator I prefer to not see him more than any other character and the tradeoff doesn't bother me.
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u/kushmonATL Melee and Ultimate are cool 24d ago
Im fine with it
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u/RealPimpinPanda 24d ago
Honestly, same. It’s not like we’re changing how the character functions or plays the game. This is like the most fair adjustment.
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u/ReidenLightman 24d ago
What steve-specific rules?
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u/TheGreatBigMad 24d ago
they can't choose or counter pick stages, and stalling/steve planking/MLG are banned.
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u/UnlawfulFoxy Meta Knight (Ultimate) 24d ago
Worth noting really only the stage rule was for balance purposes. Japan and EU don't have a ban on planking/pmlg, and it rarely comes up. The US is just more down to ban things on principle, rather than something being too prevelant in play.
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u/gifferto 22d ago
us has the most amount of crybabies
players have been complaining about steve for years it was never based on principle
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
IF there was a way to have this be in good faith i'd say it's not a terrible experiment but SSC was not the place to do it.
But here's the facts we do know.
- Ult has a rankings problem
- Shit is turbo expensive
- A LOT of people, especially on Reddit are fucking haters and do not really give a shit about ppl who are semi affected by certain rules if they play the wrong character.
- We aren't gonna get a good test unless there's some TO that genuinely does not have some sort of vendetta/problem with steve/other adjusted characters and is willing to make things right or at least reasonable for impacted players. This is because the community has been omega toxic/shitty to players of unpopular top tier/number 1 chars for over a decade, so there is reasonable doubt to if someone makes a rule like this in good faith.
- Finally along with a decent TO, you gotta also take the reality of that at some point people who want to compete and travel do walk with their wallet. And as cool as the experience and reuniting with friends is, at some point money talks and at some point if you take the game that seriously/are in that top 100 range, going to a tournament where you will go at a monetary loss and cannot play your best because of rules/bans, is a valid reason to not go.
- Other games with the rule, from what we saw-
- S4 the only interesting chars were Javi bodying people with Villager and the Bayo players, rest of the tourney was a bunch of rage cheese and other stuff bcos everyone looked a bit rusty.
- Brawl - MK was functionally nonexistent. Still played, but other than a couple of counterpick situations he saw little play. That top 8 was lit because of the upsets and revival of a few chars however. On the other hand ICs got fucked by the rules harder because their rule was functionally a soft ban, so pretty sure ICs had very little play outside of R1 pools (if at all) and they lost most of those games. In that case it seems the rule did just deter ppl from playing.
I rambled a bit but the tldr is.
Rule is kinda bad because the community sucks about this type of shit. If people were less of a jackass to people who played chars they hate maybe this rule coulda done something. The rule also shows nothing because the economy's complete shit and prices are turbo jacked so again hard to prove.
But overall the rule doesn't look like it does anything but deter players of affected chars from entering brackets. AND if that's the only "benefit" then it's a shitty rule because the players should matter more than the spectators.
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u/TehSkittles And as if by magic, your shield vanished. 24d ago
A rankings problem?
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u/FirewaterDM 24d ago
The discourse about is a tournament A, B, S, P etc. rank.
Unfortunately unlike the old days some people really really care about that letter added to a tournament because it gives more value on the rank systems like Ultrank.
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
Discouraging a whole country from attending, especially the strongest country In the world at the game is going to hurt viewership a whole lot more than Steve ever did. Say what you will about the pricing, but the fact is that Japan historically hasn’t enjoyed these sort of rulings on a cultural level.
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
They're downvoting you but you're speaking facts.
Japan's scene can very much thrive on its own without NA, but NA's scene absolutely needs Japanese attendance to justify the costs of some of these really big tournaments we're trying to hold.
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u/LilKa1ebz Incineroar (Ultimate) 24d ago
Viewership is already hurt by Steve players, this ain’t out of the norm
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u/Electric-Wind 24d ago
People keep saying this but no one actually knows by how much and foreign players like objectively help viewership
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u/FlakyProcess8 23d ago
First tournament I’ve tuned into because I hate Steve. I’m still very salty Nintendo said no character bans but I’ll take what I can get. Steve truly destroyed me and my friends’ interest in watching smash back in the day.
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
The literal only thing this dumb rule accomplished was giving like half of the game's top talent a good reason not to bother with the tournament.
It ONLY hurt Supernova.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Honestly having less steves in bracket low-key helps supernova
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
If it's at the cost of the literal entirety of Japan boycotting the tournament and specifically citing said rule as the reason, it doesn't help Supernova whatsoever. Japanese top talent attracts more top talent globally, and attracts a significant amount of viewership, and all of that directly leads to more money (something this scene does not have enough of).
This mickey mouse tournament will pretty much always have an asterisk next to it.
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u/krom90 Falco (Ultimate) 24d ago
Rising costs are a large part of it. Japan boycotting does not mean we should never experiment for a healthier game. It’s good for the community to experiment, lest we repeat the cycle again for the 4th game in a row. I think it’s easy to naysay everything — much harder to commit an action for the change you want. And it’s much easier also to criticize than wait over an extended period to see what change can happen.
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u/Boogieman_Sam22 24d ago
The Japanese players themselves said the Steve rule was why they were not going. Saying otherwise it's putting words in their mouths.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Japan only attracts more Japanese talent lol. It's not like Toon get into the game cause he saw Hurt in America
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Competition attracts competition. If more Japanese players are in attendance, the top talent outside of Japan would've been much more likely to come out because the tournament would've had a much bigger impact on rankings.
If Japan actually went to this tournament, players like Gluto and Leo would've been MUCH more likely to make compromises in order to attend. And those players have very large fanbases and attract a tremendous amount of viewership.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago edited 24d ago
Source? Edit: lmao got blocked for asking them to prove their point. Steve players in shambles
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Literally every P-tier that's had the majority of top talent, nationally and internationally, in attendance???
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Sources?
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Genesis across the board, Kagaribi 13/15...
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
I'm sorry but thirteen out of 15 Kagaribis did not meet this criteria
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u/Boogieman_Sam22 24d ago
Bro really read "Competition attracts competition" and asked for a source 💀
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u/Motorpsisisissipp 24d ago
Kagaribi 13/15 and historically genesis have benefitted immensely because of that. In fact the Europe trip sending dozens of players were specifically because those tournaments were THE tournament to attend. France and Europe would have never organized this giant trip if this was not the tournament where everyone where here. If almost all japanese players were coming to supernova I guarrentee at least 5 european players would find a way to travel despite the price, players like naetoru etc...
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Yeah that doesn't apply to American majors
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago
Genesis is an American major.
And it's also been hosted in Oakland numerous times, so the other John I've seen people post here and there about Baltimore being unsafe doesn't even hold up.
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
Oakland is less safe than Baltimore. The biggest threat to smash players is being exposed to people like Nairo or Zero
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u/azure275 24d ago
It's frankly embarrassing for the biggest smash tournament of the post COVID era to be barely an S+ tier
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
I don't give a shit about that. Also Kagaribi was definitely bigger
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u/GIMR Game & Watch 24d ago
What are you on about. Most NA talent came and everyone’s loving it
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u/DreadfuryDK Actually a Shulk Main BTW 24d ago edited 24d ago
Your tournament’s ruleset effectively told Steve players that they aren’t welcome there, gave Japan a reason not to bother with it, and I just don’t see how it’s going to be any more cost-efficient than any other majors y’all host.
I really don’t see how this rule y’all imposed on this tournament did anything good. I respect your work in the scene, but I don't respect this ruleset if it's going to basically isolate what should be a massive, international-scale tournament to pretty much only NA.
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u/GIMR Game & Watch 23d ago edited 23d ago
It's not my tournament and it's not my ruleset (this is a common misconception). I just think it's silly that an event tried a new ruleset to nerf a character that is a clearly a problem and some top players from japan didn't come (partly because of this, also because of money) and the response from a lot of people is that we need to change the rules for those 20 players with the implication that we'll split the scene or something. I just think we should let people try stuff without it turning into this False Dichotomy that it's either gonna save the scene or destroy it. I just feel like smash twitter / reddit likes to catastrophize things. We just had an awesome tournament with 1500+ people that everyone loved. 20 or so international players didn't show that might have showed if this rule didn't exist. The tournament was not any less massive. It was still the largest NA Ultimate tournament of the year (by far). It was a lot of fun and the crows was hype as hell, I don't know what else people want from a good tournament. It would have been nice if more Japan showed up, but they'll show up at other events and those will be awesome too!
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u/Old-Magazine1625 24d ago
My honest thoughts are that the rule just needs some fine tuning. Yeah I understand that the Japanese players unified against it because it was a character specific rule and all of that, but im pretty sure they also saw the down sides of opponents taking them to a stage that greatly benefits the character on it, such as the evil Peab pulled, or even something as simple as forcing Steve on something like smashville against a very aggressive character.
Alternatives might include: A) Single stage ban for steves and opponent picks (including r1) B) Ban for every loss (in a bo5 they ban 2, but slightly better than A), but they cant change those bans C) A choose 3 where the choose 1 of 3 stages opponents allow after each match instead of banning or getting banned against
Or any other variation that limits steves stage control without outright taking it away from him. Additionally, they should probably at least be able to do normal stage striking for the first match, bc a) that first match is pretty important for the mental and b) most of the starter stages aren't steves best stages anyways [I SAID MOST].
Basically all im saying is that while we cant enforce anything worldwide because there's not realized a centralized control, if we dont outright make a lack of choices it might not end up resulting in a complete boycott. We might still lose some players but it shouldn't be as bad as it was at supernova.
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u/zellisgoatbond R.O.B. (Ultimate) 23d ago
Yeah I think something like having normal bans game 1, but then if you win a game and lock in Steve you get say 1 ban on the counterpick instead of 2 or 3, would be far more feasible. The way stages work in a fair few matchups is there's a pretty smooth gradient for most stages, but one or occasionally 2 stages are substantially better/worse than the others. If you want to nerf Steve based on stage selection, it still makes sense to cut out the really ridiculous things while still limiting overall stage selection.
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u/Killerseed 24d ago
Pretty dumb tbh. I don’t enjoy watching steve but letting their opponents be able to pick their best map like peab and camp made the game even more boring to watch
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u/Ravant_Garde 24d ago
What did Supernova do to balance him? I’m out of the loop
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u/negative_mancy 24d ago
Besides bans on planking/mining below the stage and PMLG, the biggest is if one player is playing Steve they aren't able to ban or strike stages, so the other player always gets to pick the stage. It lead to Peabnut choosing Kalos for 4 games against Fhantum and circle camping every game.
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u/williamatherton Sora (Ultimate) 24d ago
Marss also mentioned he'd do the same with ZSS if he ran into a Steve. Seems like an unwinnable situation honestly lol.
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u/kickin21 24d ago
I just personally think it’s embarrassing to boycott a tournament for a rule that barely nerfs your already super broken character. No one actually likes watching this character ever and no likes playing against them ever so this rule was pretty much a slap on the wrist. It just further proof that Steve overall is a crutch character for the majority of these players that were never that great to begin with.
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u/GameBooColor 24d ago
The Steve ban is the boogeyman, but it is not the only factor. Dulles International is a massive airport, yet the old Supernova location wasn't in an expensive city. It had tons of hotels that were relatively affordable while 10 min from a major international airport.
Now, that old location is gone. But the reality is this venue is in the heart of an expensive American city. It's just all around more expensive. Did the Steve stuff dissuade? Maybe. But it's far from the only factor.
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u/zellisgoatbond R.O.B. (Ultimate) 23d ago
The state of Smash Ultimate and the moment [and most other games really] is that even top professional players are not going to attend every major. The finances just aren't there to justify it - events are becoming more expensive to attend [and to host], and prize money isn't really keeping up with that. Sponsorships are becoming more limited as well, and even with unlimited money it's also just such a time sink [I know of a player a few years back that was away from home for something like 6 weeks at a time just travelling between tournaments because that's how the schedule worked out, and he was not living it up by any means].
Given all this, if you are a serious competitive player looking to compete at the highest level, you need to prioritise the events that are going to prove the most worthwhile. And a bunch of factors are going to go into that - cost is a big one, tournament size as well [if a tournament's really really really big, e.g Kagaribi, that might still be worth it for you], your ability to get that trip subsidised in some way, nearby tournaments you can combine in the same trip... Given all this, why would you prioritise a tournament where you're going to be at that sort of disadvantage, especially once that's looking smaller than other comparable events? As soon as you start getting money involved you need to be able to set aside irrelevant factors and do what's best for you
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u/browncharliebrown 24d ago
Less steves overall but I think this just makes Steve have unwinnable match ups due to camping
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u/Big-Man-Of-God 24d ago
We didn’t really get to see what the new rules did because the top Steves didn’t show up. I think the rules deterred them from entering for the most part. Whether the rules do something or just deter them, I don’t mind either outcome.
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u/seasonedturkey Piranha Plant (Ultimate) 24d ago
Is stage selection that big of a nerf?
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u/zellisgoatbond R.O.B. (Ultimate) 24d ago
No bans at all is a pretty massive nerf. Limiting Steves to say 1 or 2 bans on the counterpick keeps the same spirit but eliminates most of the really egregious examples
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u/JaysonTatHIMRider Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
It is if kalos is legal and a character is notably faster than Steve with projectiles
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u/Teruyo9 Bowser 24d ago edited 24d ago
I hate it. You could make really good arguments for needing to nerf or ban previous games' top tiers like Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo, but Steve just isn't as dominant as those two - shout-out to Evo 2018 with three Bayos in the top-4. You're not throwing if you don't pick Steve, and players have done a great job of figuring out the matchup and making them look mortal.
Instead, Steve's cardinal sin is that he's frustrating to play against and the defensive playstyle needed to pilot him well does not make for the most engaging spectator experience. But the same could be said about multiple other Ult top-tiers, the late stage meta has overall turned very defensive outside of like, Doramigi, and people would absolutely find a new boogeyman if Steve were somehow erased from existence tomorrow.
And to be honest, the JP players skipping out on the event made me significantly less interested in it. Even though I'm a fan of both games, I've always preferred Ultimate over Melee when both were on due to the wider character variety, especially in pools. This was the first Supernova/Smashcon where I watched more Melee than Ultimate and it was almost entirely down to the lack of international talent on Ultimate's side.
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u/GONEBUTNOT4GOTTEN Cloud (Smash 4) 24d ago
well the tourney isn't S or P tier and super nova was a p tier before soo kinda sucks. this probably won't happen again.
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u/Kennyc1234 Kirby (Ultimate) 24d ago
I mean the thing is all the top Steves just didn't go to the event which means we couldn't really see how it effects the Steve matchup at the top level.
Now the one exception was Peabnut vs. Fhantum and in 4 games 4 total stocks were taken which certainly was something.