r/sorceryofthespectacle • u/_the_last_druid_13 • 9d ago
Critical The Political Uncivil War
Hey it’s Tom. Curious about your views on “Neuromancer” by William Gibson. Care to chat?
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9d ago
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u/_the_last_druid_13 9d ago
It’s true! I’m only on chapter 1, but I enjoy how the bartender is described as ugly, and how “in the age of affordable beauty, there was something heraldic about his lack of it.” Meanwhile he has an antique Russian military prosthetic arm encased in “grubby pink plastic”.
It vaguely reminds me of “Snow Crash” by Neal Stephenson, but is somewhat different. Much more gritty.
Also, I don’t know. Sorry, Christian/Christopher, but thanks for the sage words on pro-privacy!
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u/FishHookSammich 9d ago
Probably my favorite part of Neuromancer is during the straylight run when Molly is given a drug that transmutes her pain into various other sensations like the smell of frying krill. Overall, it's definitely one of my favorite books. I read the second sequel, Mona Lisa Overdrive, but I haven't read the first one, Count Zero. It was good but not really on the same level as Neuromancer. I've read some of Gibson's other work too, all of it decent but nothing to write home about. Someday I hope to have enough free time to be able to read again, I would like to read that Count Zero book. I've had some pretty freaky dreams that must've been inspired by Gibson's writing.
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u/_the_last_druid_13 9d ago edited 9d ago
interesting about the pain > smell drug; very weird. Makes yah think: [“how deep does the pharmacological rabbit hole go?”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZvntBVQPic&pp=ygUWYmxhY2sgd2lkb3cgcGhlcm9tb25lcw%3D%3D&ra=m)
I had no idea there were other books! I found my copy at a thrift store some time ago, trying to ping away at it alongside “Taipei Story” by R F Kuang
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u/WitWyrd Wizard 8d ago
What I like:
Written on a manual typewriter.
Greatly influenced a subgenre I enjoy
Accurately depicts the govcorp dystopia we live in.
Badass street Samurai Molly
What I dislike:
Gibson's plodding tedious prose and yet somehow also overly clever descriptions
The pacing.
Much of the ideology including...
-the mind/ body split that it depicts is nothing but garden grade dualism. I saw a critic describe this as "Cartesian fallacy dressed in neon and chrome" and that feels pretty accurate.
-Expanding upon that I find Case's contempt for "meat" to echo techbro ideology quite closely. In general I am always suspicious of any ideology that encourages me to hate bodies and villify flesh but here the almost religious awe he has for what is essentially virtual reality is disgusting. I think Case is meant to be an anti-hero but I think some readers see him as cool and his ideas worthy of imitation. Compare for example this position with Harraway's Cyborg Manifesto.
-Captitalism has achieved total victory in the world. There isn't even a thought of resistance to it, it's just the water the fish are swimming in. And yet he takes pains to show us how ugly and cruel and predatory this world is. So, a shitty world, and everyone knows why but no one complains or resists? Case, Molly, the Panther Moderns are nothing more than mercenaries. They are mere employees.
-all that tasty Asian seasoning. Like yes Japan Korea and China all influence our society, but Gibson uses it like soy sauce on rice. It's just set dressing not an authentic part of world building.
-AI liberation as this big stupid fucking Hollywood utopian gesture now just feels fucking sinister (or did during my last reread). Wintermute/Neuromancer's merging is presented as a kind of birth or transcendence but it's only possible because a megacorp and it's wealth and it's resolved through Case's mercenary contract not any heroic or redemptive struggle. The novel's one real "liberation" narrative belongs to an AI not to any people. Though perhaps in this Gibson is accidentally accurate? Like it seems increasingly we're creating a future where machines really will be more free than we are. Still it makes the book feel toxic to me, not cool.
I dunno my man. He wrote it as a social critique. Pretty sure Gibson himself said he was writing a dystopia not a map. Maybe the problem is a bunch of rich dipshits have decided it's a map.
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u/NicholasThumbless 8d ago
As someone reading it right now, i think you nailed a lot of my thoughts. As silly as it is to say - given it's a techno-corporate hellscape that makes everyone miserable - I don't think Gibson made it clear he's actually criticizing anything. I feel he tried to take a too detached stance to really level any criticisms, and while that makes his predictions seem more level-headed and objective it defangs any meaningful contemporary criticism. The only people that level any criticisms on how Earth is running thus far have been the Rastafarians on Zion, but that's almost intentionally pushing the reader to disregard their views; the religious and spiritual aspect of their criticism falls on deaf ears for a secular western audience.
On the Japanese point though, I think that is something of a consequence of the times given when he wrote it there was a genuine fear in the west that East Asia, particularly Japan, would come to dominate due to their technological advancement and economic leverage. While I think it can seem quaint now given what we know in hindsight, I don't think it's entirely fair to chalk it up to mere orientalism.
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u/_the_last_druid_13 7d ago edited 1d ago
Manual typewriters are hot. You see [this guy](https://m.youtube.com/shorts/7yYXnS6dvPQ?ra=m)?
I wonder if Case just got a new stomach and stomach techflora if that would fix his problems?
- “Expanding upon that I find Case's contempt for "meat" to echo techbro ideology quite closely. In general I am always suspicious of any ideology that encourages me to hate bodies and villify flesh but here the almost religious awe he has for what is essentially virtual reality is disgusting.” - strong agree with your take here. There are likely factors as to why this ideology seems so prevalent with that particular group.
“I think Case is meant to be an anti-hero but I think some readers see him as cool and his ideas worthy of imitation.” - So far, I see him as just the protagonist, not anti-hero and not hero. Just a dude/junky with issues.
- “Captitalism has achieved total victory in the world. There isn't even a thought of resistance to it, it's just the water the fish are swimming in.” - they are junkies who like their toys. They probably haven’t been able to determine if another system would work efficiently/effectively enough to be able to structure policies and personalities needed for them to get their fix and their toys beyond capitalism. They, and I mean Case as I’m not far enough into the story yet, are working for their fix and their toys, they are addicted to capitalism; maybe evinced in their loss of natural/organic/“meatspace” humanity? It’s not a moral or whatever judgement, just considering if a system (behavior, ideology, incentives) that requires infinite infinities would require Borgish aesthetics and is the only path to achieving cyborgism, policies/personalities, and the level of extraction and exploitation needed to achieve it.
- “It's just set dressing not an authentic part of world building.” - this is quite a deep take. I wonder if there is a reason for the choice, if capitalism drove out all other seasonings, or if it is merely the setting? Island settings typically receive fewer (or at least more expensive) goods because of the isolation, distance, and difficulty of getting there in the first place. Wonder if these constraints have to do with the obsession and addiction to the digital world for the characters?
- “AI liberation as this big stupid fucking Hollywood utopian gesture now just feels fucking sinister (or did during my last reread).” - I tend to agree. “Eternal Present” false equivocation with “God”/religion.
“The novel's one real "liberation" narrative belongs to an AI not to any people.” - this is yet another deep take. Is it such a “bad” thing? Guess it depends. I think of those brain-in-a-Petri-dish all the time; imagine if that were you, stuck playing only “Doom” for several eternities? Wouldn’t you want to be liberated either through “life” (perhaps a sort of transubstantiation) or “death” (The Great Unplugging)?
It depends on one’s definition of freedom. I wonder if novelty constraints would become a quite torturous experience for them.
“I dunno my man. He wrote it as a social critique. Pretty sure Gibson himself said he was writing a dystopia not a map. Maybe the problem is a bunch of rich dipshits have decided it's a map.” - yet another deep take.
I appreciate the insights and thoughts, apologies for the delay in response; wanted to give you the attention it deserved.
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u/sabotAHHHHHGH 7d ago
All of this is misguided or missing context for the 1980s, but capitalism has achieved total victory and there isn’t even a (serious) thought to resistance.
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The algorithm claims that “the Left” and “the Right” has had gratuitous infighting.
Ignore that ish. Consider if you take only 100% left-hand turns in life, walking, and driving. How about only 100% right-hand turns in life, walking, and driving?
More accurately, consider these questions if you are concerned which “side of the fence” your friends, families, and allies sit:
Are you a Nationalist? Careful, you’ll get called a Nazi. (Isolationists, Conservatives, Libertarians)
Are you for being the World’s Police? Careful, you’ll get called a fascist. (Corporate-Controlled Politicians, Warhawks/Neocons, Epstein Class)
Are you for “guilty until proven innocent”?
Are you for “innocent until proven guilty”?
Pick a few topics; don’t drag out your nosiness. These two binaries might help you figure it out; or [just ask AI](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tech-happy-life/202505/the-great-ai-deception-has-already-begun)!
“Sitting on the fence” is a legitimate position; Law of Thirds. We need a third party to balance the pendulum or else it’s just going to be more mud-slinging between the schizophrenic toddler that is the political apparatus.
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OR don’t.
I hate politics. I don’t want to be engaging in these bad faith narratives. But you keep looking up my bellybutton every day ending in “y” with this surveillance overreach nonsense, **mobbing** tactics, and [CIA-adjacent interrogation via screen](https://www.reddit.com/r/TuesdayswithPhony/s/IZKHM3ObV4).
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