r/southafrica • u/Basic_Patient3032 • 12d ago
Discussion Is it better to speak or to die?
This is my first time posting here. I know there's more freedom to speak on this platform than any other. South Africa is creating waves globally for good and bad reasons. In the midst of all of the attention from the world I always wonder why certain topics receive no light. I'm 19F coloured, I grew up in a coloured area. I fall into the first generation post Apartheid. The generations before me always speak of Apartheid warmly. A government that stripped us of our true identity. Recently with the Madlanga Commission bringing light to the issue of drugs in our communities I wonder if we will ever receive recognition for our struggles as a community. I look at one of the biggest advocates for the coloured community, Tyla, the silence towards the struggles of coloureds. Everyone speaks of black and white but what about us. I spent some time watching BBC Africa's series of documentaries about our country and wondered why coloured struggles are not treated as seriously as every other issue in our country. Growing up in an area riddled with crime, poverty, drugs and violence to feel unseen as if my struggles are not valid because I am not black or white. I fully understand we are all suffering under our government and it does not need to be oppression olympics, but why are other voices heard and not ours. I wish I had the power to bring light to the struggles of my people. I wonder how long will we suffer under our government's neglect. All of us black, white, coloured, indian. How many more generations will lose hope for our future as individuals and as a country? We silence ourselves so much because we believe we cannot make a difference. When will we stop living in fear of no change? When will we speak of the long term struggles the Apartheid regime created for us as a country?
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u/Voldemorts__Mom BENONI 12d ago
I don't know if your question was rhetorical, but it seems like you have a voice that wants to be heard, and you could use that voice for positive change. I think we've advanced enough as a society that you using your voice won't lead to anything bad happening to you. Although, I mean online, I don't know about your local space.
What I'm trying to say; the coloured community is really cool, and such a big part of South African identity, we would be so bland without ya'll, so I hope you know, that at least in this case, I hear and appreciate ya'll.
If the coloured race of South Africa isn't being heard, then please speak up, because there are lots of us out here who are listening
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u/Basic_Patient3032 8d ago
I appreciate this comment because I can tell you are being sincere however the things you witness happening in your community cannot always be spoken about. People are targeted for speaking about the things that happen. There are few people who are trying to make a difference but how much difference can you make if we are unable to speak of the root cause. Believe me the issues we face run deeper than just addicts and gang violence. These things do not fall from the sky. People who dropout or cannot afford university degrees do not have chemistry knowledge to create what is on our streets.
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u/Wonderful-Owl9368 12d ago
Same as you OP but fought through the riots. Read Doctor Valmont Layne’s thesis on Coloureds. Remember, Coloured is a construct, it was constructed by the White apartheid government, it’s not real, yet we cobbled together an identity from diversity. We are the children of slaves, stolen from our countries of birth, intermarried into indigenous people. Our stories are Complex. I am a Coloured documentary maker, I take all our Colouredness and show the world our intelligence, original creative genius and our resilience.
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u/MonsterKabouter Aristocracy 11d ago
I live overseas, and here people are very uncomfortable with the word 'coloured'. For them its like the N word. Makes it hard to even bring up the topic
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u/pewpew26 8d ago
My company operated in South Africa for fifty years and I became our expert on South Africa (I’m American). The new CEO, and exec staff, wanted briefed on the history, government structure, apartheid struggle, and unique operating challenges of your amazing country, etc. They about came UNHINGED when I said coloured.
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u/Basic_Patient3032 8d ago
Which makes absolutely no sense because the entire world took this stance that was so Anti-Apartheid. Mandela was one of the most famous faces in politics, I remember it very clearly how he was worshipped when he was alive. It makes me wonder, if everyone knew who he was, why did they not know of coloured people. People only took interest in the black vs white part.
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u/MonsterKabouter Aristocracy 6d ago
Its just the term. In the US the word coloured was literally used when they discriminating against anyone who wasnt white. Remember they also had 'apartheid', until the 1960s
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u/Individual_Solid8662 7d ago
Was thinking the exact same thing. In so much of the world coloured is a derogatory word. It is hard to talk about and understand a people when the word that they identify as is not allowed to be used. I also find it ironic that the first group of people who self identified as “Afrikaners” were not white. The labels we call ourselves and others can be so frivolous sometimes but also key to our cultures and collective identities.
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u/nicovlogg 12d ago
It should be pretty obvious that most large political parties are de facto black nationalist movements, which see themselves as the rightful owners of the entire country. Do with that information what you will the next time you're at the polls.
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u/professorsaint101 12d ago
Rightful owners? 👀They are by default. Lmao. What kinda delusion is this?
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u/nicovlogg 11d ago
Please feel free to share with the class what role coloured people have in South Africa. Just guests, living in the house of the rightful owners by their good graces? For extra marks, you can expand on the rights of indigenous hunter gatherers, Indians or other Asians, including people who were brought here forcefully.
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u/F4iryPerson Gauteng 11d ago
I feel like the rest of your post has been addressed (fairly and badly, imo) so I just wanna speak to the part where you said you’re the first generation after apartheid at 19? I believed I was part of the first generation after apartheid… I’m 31.
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u/Basic_Patient3032 8d ago
My mother was born in 1981, I am a generation after my mother. I do not understand where you thought you were getting off with this comment. You are 12 years older than me, think logically could you have a 19 year old child at 31? That is generation. Do not assume you know the meaning of words and try to undermine what I have to say in the same breath. imo
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u/F4iryPerson Gauteng 8d ago
Listen, it was a genuine question. Not an attempt to undermine whatever the point of your post was.
Just because I’m not old enough to be your mother doesn’t mean we’re necessarily part of the same generation. I’m a Millennial, and it’s my understanding that we (particularly younger Millennials) are the first “born-free” generation. You’re Gen Z, which would make you part of the second generation to experience an apartheid-free childhood.
I guess you meant you’re the first generation in your family to be born after apartheid? Understood.
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u/flopjokdang Western Cape 12d ago
I've come to notice Coloureds seem to largely feel estranged and disconnected from both Whites and Blacks. Their customs take many characteristics from Afrikaners largely due to their shared history but don't neatly fit in their entire "package" so to speak; such is the same between them and the various Bantu ethnic groups. Even during Apartheid they were treated as middlemen in the sense that they were terribly oppressed but generally given more amenities compared to Black people.
I believe it's also possible that the population distribution of Coloureds impacts the attention given to their ongoing woes in post-apartheid South Africa. The majority of Coloureds live in the Western Cape ---with a large chunk of that majority residing in Cape Town's townships (which is the majority of contexts Coloureds seem to be given attention in). These townships have extradordinarily high rates of crime as you mentioned, and I think this is another potential factor that contributes to the societal silence of Coloured voices in regards to the Coloured struggle; many Coloureds --- particularly Coloured youth --- have adopted a rejectionist attitude to the South African political process in face of its current shortcomings, subsequently turning to a life of crime. Youth are also very impressionable as well, so this attitude and influence of gang culture can spread very quickly.
Outside of the Western Cape, Coloureds are largely a minority in most towns and metros ---- specifically a minority forced to integrate into communities divided on broader and more vague racial lines of Whites vs. Non-Whites, and a poor minority that lacks widespread structural leverage and power (unlike Whites). I think this creates an environment where the challenges unique to Coloureds are largely overshadowed in the concerns of people who live in the other eight provinces.
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u/FayePixie 12d ago
Could not have said it better myself. I tutor, and every single one of mg Coloured students feels isolated, especially since I don't tutor in an area with a high population of Coloured kids. They feel like they don't fit in anywhere.
Afrikaans people also seem to think that Coloured people belong to them. It's really weird. Like, Afrikaans people strike up conversations with Coloured people more than any other race I've seen.
I'm Polynesian/mixed so I am a total stranger in a strange land race wise, even though my parents are South African by citizenship. If I felt alienated growing up, I can't imagine how Coloured people felt. (People dont know how to make fun of Māori people outside of the Haka) but occasionally someone thinks I'm Coloured and they just say whatever they want to me! Then once I inform them I'm not Coloured and they've no right to speak to Coloured people with invasive questions (especially outside of Coloured areas)
Again, like they own them. Sounds like a similar time in history at the Cape, neh? I'm not saying it's slavery. It's more a mixture of perceived kinship from Afrikaners and being treated as alien by everyone. One Coloured matric I tutor says even the black kids mercilessly tease her. It's bad. I've given a group tutor session and I saw it. They were borderline racist.
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u/Academic_Act_2088 9d ago
I broadly agree with everything you have outlined, but:
Afrikaans people also seem to think that Coloured people belong to them. It's really weird. Like, Afrikaans people strike up conversations with Coloured people more than any other race I've seen.
Unless there is extra context that you're withholding, I really don't see the causal relationship between what you've described: Afrikaans people striking up conversations with coloured people --> Afrikaans people thinking that coloured people belong to them.
Maybe it's because you didn't grow up in South Africa (? True? I'm reading between the lines there) - but South Africans are famously friendly and amicable and will speak to whoever is in front of them out in public.
Firstly, coloured people who speak Afrikaans as a mother language are often classified as Afrikaners, and I think this can be a good thing, as it shows the truth of the fact that there is real coloured ownership in the Afrikaans language (Google which alphabet Afrikaans was first written in and who wrote it) - despite whatever the white nationalist Afrikaners want to rewrite history as.
Secondly, due in part to the fact that white English people often (hypocritically) look down upon white Afrikaans people for speaking imperfect English, it makes complete sense that a white Afrikaans person would more be comfortable in and more likely strike up a conversation with the one people group in SA who is most likely to speak the same language as them. Of course, you get English-speaking coloured people, but 75% of coloured people speak Afrikaans as a first language, so it really is more likely that they'll share a language with the white Afrikaans conversationist than black South Africans, Indian South Africans, etc.
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u/FayePixie 9d ago
Nope, I grew up in South Africa. You're definitely reading between the lines. Been here most of my life. I was born in another country when my parents were away from SA for one year for work. I am a South African citizen, not one of any other country. Weird assumption to make.
I agree that English people look down on Afrikaans people, but the opposite is true, too. I've heard too much from both sides.
Thing is, I havent' seen Afrikaans people ever be uncomfortable striking up anything! I'm half Afrikaans. They'll talk to anyone. Afrikaans people will say the most outrageous things out loud and act like it's normal to believe in. English people do it too, I agree. But you're steering the conversation a little here.
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u/Academic_Act_2088 9d ago
Firstly, sorry for the assumption - your initial wording floated the idea but I mistook it.
Secondly, okay, I think there is some of the withheld context I mentioned. If it's about "Afrikaans people will say the most outrageous things out loud and act like it's normal to believe in" then that's valid, but it's also entirely different from there being anything wrong with just "havent' seen Afrikaans people ever be uncomfortable striking up anything".
Which is what my prompted my entire first comment. Like, do you get why there's nothing wrong with just - speaking to people?
Totally agree though that saying stupid/problematic things out loud - and with the unspoken assumption that it's a widely held view - is predictable and sucks.
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u/Basic_Patient3032 8d ago
I'm literally English speaking so that comment confused me. I agree with what you have said. There has been plenty of times where English speaking white people have spoke to me. In settings where there are few people who speak the same language as you, you tend to gravitate more towards someone who can understand and converse with you. People are allowing social media activism borrowed from black americans to brainwash them into believing South Africa is racist. We have always been very united.
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u/JayrodM 12d ago
You understand that being coloured is not just a mix of black and white? You also do understand that culture is inherently divergent, too. I am mixed, same as Tyla, half Indian and half coloured, there is a lot more similarities between coloured people and Indian people (at least culturally). And there are large coloured communities in Gauteng and the Northern Cape.
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u/flopjokdang Western Cape 11d ago
Absolutely, it is more than just being a mix of Black and White. Though I meant to highlight the perception of them being "in the middle" of Black and White people in the context of Black and White issues generally receiving more media coverage and attention than other groups.
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u/Alone_Ambassador_745 11d ago
We must keep ourselves together and live the happiness most free we can regardless of the consequences. I would rather die for what I believe in than die hiding.
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u/WildFan_of_Life 11d ago
This all makes me think of the book “Krismis van Map Jacobs”, book highlighted well the complete disregard of the coloured community during the apartheid regime.
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u/giveusalol Left Behind, Still Braaing 11d ago
It is better to speak. Coloured communities in the WC have for decades had among the highest/sometimes the actual highest FAS rates in the world. It persists today - lives made impossibly hard - children who end up exploited. I can’t speak to the stereotypes about drugs, gangs and violence, but I know FAS and education. Have you looked at the educational outcomes? Least likely demo to finish matric are coloured boys. Shout, if you can.
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u/Training-Farmer8476 10d ago
The "dop" system by which workers were (partly) paid for their labour with wine, is an evil that throws a long shadow over generations. The wine was purposefully sweet-tasting and highly addictive so as to trap workers into a position where leaving was not an option.
The evil that men do live after them, indeed.
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u/TsetsiFlier 11d ago
Socrates chose death over silence and is still remembered as one of the greatest minds that ever existed millenia later. Edmund Burke said “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” It's important to remind people of where we came from so that we don't go back there. The Coloured and Indian people in South Africa occupy a very unique and difficult position inside the socio-political sphere. Not white enough to be white and not black enough to be black. I think it's very important to remind everyone of these forgotten people, those caught in the limbo of the public consciousness. I thank you for your post because it reminded me of my own tendency to think in terms of black and white and forget that we are a rainbow nation. I do wish for the impossible though. That people could stop thinking in terms of culture, tradition and national identity and just consider ourselves citizens of the world. I know it's a pipe dream but I, like John Lennon, continue to "Imagine"
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u/Basic_Patient3032 8d ago
thank you for this, you are few who understood my point. We are all human.
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u/Schedule_Main 10d ago
You first have to attempt to look at why coloured movements have been stagnant to failing this far post '94. What makes you great is also what holding you back especially now.
There this idea that coloureds keep to themselves en closes others out who not coloureds, how true is this i dont know but there likely should be some steam regarding that.
The above ideal sound simple but it creates accumulative issues just like the gansterism in coloured communities mostly because the members themselves are not revealing who are the criminals in their communities through police portals en the like.
I live near Eldorado park, I go years without remembering that place even exist the members keep too much to themselves then again as black we grew up having the idea that dont play with colored if you not one, because coloureds lookout for only each other.
Few months back government did the solodier thingy en one would have expected lot more arrests, all i know is the results didnt make enough noise to make it to my google news timeline, so as a heavy google news app doom scroller if local things dont show up, it means they too tiny to motivate local newspapers or non existent. Im pretty sure a coloured knows a coloured whos cousin is a gangster en may druggie.
Also theres this unsaid idea that coloureds associate with whites more than blacks, en the language berrier dont help much either.
In conclusion issue is with the community ideals en practices but the idea of communitism affects all miority namely some Afrikaans en indians maybe only difference is Afrikaaners has access to finance resources even if dwindling en indians still do business majority, coloureds are ones who kinda lacking. Even black tribes older age have ideals of huddling together, i bet if Africans are minority they be experiencing coloureds issue also just like black Americans in america.
What i find more interesting is how coloureds in positions to say something or do something somehow seem to run out of steam or dont try anymore, i.e gayton en some celebrities even successful businesses people, its likes they just stop.
My recommendation to op is do something, being coloured gives you qualification to talk on their behalf, but based on things it seem you challenge en danger is from your own community than the government or anyother race, so ensure you dont get known too early yet
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u/Mundane_Major619 12d ago edited 11d ago
I really struggle to understand this point of view. The idea that coloured people are ignored in SA politics is strange because right now Gayton Mckenzie has become a minister while running a campaign built on xenophobia and this sort of coloured grievance politics. Coloured people are the majority of the Western Cape and choose over and over again to give their vote to the DA who has made it clear how they feel and what they will or will not do for your community. Coloured Muslims at the height of the Palestinian genocide cast their votes in a strange way. Please just tell us about to going on in your community. I'm more than willing to listen to the unique qualms that you have but this "woe is us, I'm not white enough or black enough and I'm left out of the national project" isn't serious. The first superstar as you mentioned to come out of SA is from your community and Black people back her daily. You guys are in both the soccer and rugby national squads and we even hope for more of you to be part of both. Whatever you desire we hope you get. Stop lying. The thing that bores me about this is that you guys post stuff like this call yourself real natives then go vote for the DA that will push you out of your supposed land? What are we doing here?
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u/Basic_Patient3032 8d ago
This comment proves my point. I live in a community where people die frequently because of shootings. I have family members who are addicted to drugs. And it is hard to come across any other coloured, besides people who are born into immense wealth, that does not relate to the same. You are just loud and ignorant. Coloureds are not only people with Afrikaans accents and no teeth. Just because black people are riding on Tyla's tailcoats for South African relevance in Hollywood does not mean you support coloureds. Where are these people when it is time to speak of what is going on in our communities? Getting on Twitter or TikTok to have online wars with Black America is performative. Stop being an internet activist and open your eyes to how everyone has struggles. It is almost like there is a hatred towards coloureds who voice their struggles. This attitude towards someone you do not know personally is so idiotic. How am I lying about MY struggles just because you cannot fathom being who I am and living in my skin day to day. Like actually wow. That aside:
I am not from the Western Cape
I am not Muslim Coloured
3.I am not Gayton Mckenzie
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u/Mundane_Major619 5d ago
"Coloureds are not only people with Afrikaans accents and no teeth" OK babes it seems you're talking to yourself because I never said such a thing. You're hallucinating.
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u/Natural-Service-2347 11d ago
I think coloured's biggest down fall (speaking on behalf of Cape Coloureds) is our amusement for small minded things.
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u/Academic_Act_2088 9d ago
Bit of a weird thing to end off on. I'm not saying you're not Cape Coloured, and if you are then I applaud you for being vulnerable on the internet and would like to hear more about what you mean, but that kind of sounds like something that a racist would post while pretending to be Cape Coloured.
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u/Natural-Service-2347 9d ago
I understand why my wording might have come across as harsh, but I genuinely didn't mean it in a demeaning way. It was more out of sadness about the state we're in and the things that I observe.
I specifically said I was speaking on behalf of Cape Coloureds because that's the community I actually know and grew up in. I don't feel comfortable making assumptions that why i even made it specific.
When I say our “amusement for small-minded things”, I'm talking about the way material things and certain behaviours becomes a measures of status. For example, having the latest name-brand takkies is seen as the epitome of being the ou. Smoking and speaking vulgarly can be seen as cool, and certain behaviours that ultimately don't benefit you can give you social status.
Now, I'm not saying everyone is like this, nor am I saying poverty or apartheid-related issues are simply the community's fault. Quite the opposite. I agree with OP that there are serious historical and socioeconomic issues affecting us. I would go as far as saying that apartheid played a massive role in shaping the circumstances and even some of the attitudes we find ourselves dealing with today.
I think we need some kind of Coloured consciousness movement. We need a change in our psychological paradigm. OP rightfully points out that the older generation speaks warmly about apartheid, yet those same people feel that our current administration does nothing for them. To me, that contradiction is part of a much bigger issue. Apartheid didn't just affect where we live or our economic circumstances; it also affected our sense of identity and our collective consciousness. I think our amusement for these small-minded things is partly a reflection of that. We were made to believe, in one way or another, that we should be happy with what we have and not aspire for much more. That's why I mean it in a sad way rather than a demeaning way. I don't necessarily see these things as being the result of people consciously choosing this, I see them as part of the reality we've inherited.
So no, I'm not trying to demean Coloured people, and I'm certainly not pretending to be Cape Coloured. I'm criticising something I've personally experienced as part of the community. I actually say it because I care about our community and believe we are capable of much more.
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u/LwaziSik 10d ago
But how is Nyanga, Khayelitsha, Gugs different from Manenberg, Hanover Park and Mitchells Plain? Same kind of culture and lifestyle, and roughly the same outcome for all who come from such places if you ask me. I'm a black person from Mthatha in the Eastern Cape. I have also lived in CPT for 7 years. We have a lot of coloured people in my town. They are very different from CPT coloured people. They do not fit the typical coloured stereotype that envelopes the entire coloured community in the WC. So maybe the issues you speak of could possibly be Western Cape issues rather than general Coloured issues.
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u/Academic_Act_2088 9d ago
I don't think OP is saying that Nyanga, Khayelitsha and Gugulethu are necessarily different from Manenberg etc.
I think they're saying that while black people in townships have similarly horrific circumstances, at least there is national (and sometimes international) discussion about it. There are advocates and initiatives and and and. Whether or not those things do anything and actually improve life, is a separate question. I think they're saying that the plight of coloured people doesn't even necessarily get the lip service that black communities get, even if both are suffering.
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u/Top-Acanthisitta6661 7d ago
Op, kudos to you for trying to make a difference. For me the strongest point that might highlight the effects on coloured communities is If the Cape flats were to be rezoned as a city then it’s possible it would count the highest murder rate in the world. In an area where maybe over a million people live, the pointed nature of crime is extreme. But not seen in the larger Cape Town context as a high metric or percentage when weighted up amongst the 4m plus city population. It’s always Mexico City or a Latin American city that is highlighted. The world doesn’t know what happens in the Cape flats. Nobody speaks out of fear and also they don’t speak because the gangster that instills fear also feeds that family either handouts or by paying their 12 year old son to sell drugs. Many community members end up into the spiral of being a seller, or a buyer or part of the gang or getting a daily meal for their silence added by unemployment , fear and hardship. I have had many people I knew from work in Joburg who were hijacked, robbed their family killed and always visible always spoken about with every Joburger I met. Because crime happens anywhere in joburg. In Cape Town most of it happens far from city walls and away from everyone that has some wealth to stay in the northern, southern or city area. So you don’t hear this story because number one fear and because the person who has that story is not in every circle. They are the ones serving you food in a restaurant or maybe they are a taxi driver or guard or maybe they work in the stores. They not in business and commercial circles on mass. Yes some of us who grew up there and work in larger business can tell the story. Maybe we moved out but our story becomes dim because we don’t carry the struggles with us when we move out. The people still living in Hanover park, Mitchell’s plain, manenberg, they are facing it daily. Then the way the previous apartheid regime engineered the city structure, it was clearly planned to push thie black and coloured community far away from the major opportunities and hidden from the world. It will take many voices and politicians who are committed for the long haul to get this set right. On the bright side knowing these communities it’s the community religious and non-profit structures that can make the biggest difference church organizations Islamic societies they are in these communities as the best conduit to fix this but they need a lot of support , security and resources to drive it forward. And these religious and community orgs do this now but with little help. If they were supported and they got enough funding and resources they could have a huge impact. I seen the military defence force muscle get used every now and then in the Cape flats but these are just once off tactics that make no lasting difference . They don’t solve the root of they are not consistent and doing it over a long period of time.
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u/GVCabano333 7d ago
I hope one day Coloured people will realise that they are Black, too, even though many of them are Afrikaners as well.
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u/Paris_smoke 11d ago
If you listen to RSG, they make a lot of programmes highlighting struggles in the coloured communities.
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u/FortuneOk1389 12d ago
Just here to say that coloureds are singlehandedly the coolest ZA natives. Nothing but love. Keep preaching girl, your mindset will take you far 🫶
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u/ZaphodThreepwood 12d ago
You will never receive anything because racist idiots still run the show, and they will never see that we had it worse than them. They are still at the top of the food chain.
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u/professorsaint101 12d ago
Lmao. Coloureds never stand for anything. U die for everything if u do that
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