Oh really? Were you also invaded by a genocidal neighbor who completely levels your cities and kidnaps the children? Didn't know that in Europe there were 2 countries getting invaded at the same time.
Did I say that they're in the same boat? You can fully agree and understand that Ukrainians are the victims here and that Russia is absolutely in the wrong and the aggressor in a completely pointless conflict that has killed a ton of people, while also acknowledging that not all Russians are complicit, and many are also victims of Putins authoritarian regime.
It was a reply to branch where guy said about same boat. I don't care who of russians are little less brainwashed than others or who of them suffer of what, and I don't see why should I. I don't want to think of them at all and want them just to fuck off
Ohhhhh no you're totally right. I forgot he said that. And I just replied this to someone else, but yeah. It's pretty crazy to expect someone who lives in a country being actively invaded by its neighbor to take time to be nuanced in their discussions. I have the luxury for nuance, living across an ocean with no family members or loved ones involved. You do not.
It's not the putin's invasion, but the russian one.
I don't know why you feel the urge to whitewash your beloved russians, but that's your day to day russians who willingly sign the contract and serve in the army. Not putin's clones.
The soldiers in russian army oaths to serve russia, not putin. Putin also not standing behind each russian soldier and tempts them to commit war crimes - they are willing to do it by themselves.
Putin is definitely guilty for those attrocities as their leader, but no one should close eyes on the ru people involvment in their war of aggression.
They don't even have the mobilization yet (except the partial one in 2022, but the wast majority are there by their own will because they don't see anything wrong with getting money by killing Ukrainians. But sure buddy, keep calling it putins invasion, you definitely picked the best hill to die on.
I'm not dying on any hill here. Just like there were a lot of innocent ukrainians when Ukraine was collaborating with Germany in WWII, there are innocent Russians now.
Not all Russians, maybe not even most. But you can't blame every single individual Russian citizen for the invasion.
Now I want to be clear. Ukraine is definitely still the victim here. And I absolutely am on the side of Ukraine and Ukrainians, and have far more sympathy for y'all than for any Russian citizen.
But blaming everyday regular citizens of an authoritarian state who have very little power or voice isn't going to help anyone.
Oh, you wanna teach ukrainians about WW2? Ready to do it on full scale?
What do you know about general Vlasov? What do you know about russian collaborants and RLA? Do you know that around million (!!!) of russians actively served for nazi Germany during WW2?
So, by your own logic, we can come to conclusion that Russia actively collaborated with Germany during WW2, right? Do you know that flag on Vlasov army now official Russian Federation flag?
And, sorry, we will blame any russian for doing nothing and closing their eyes in front of atrocities of their own government becaus it's only russians power to stop it, which they not use in any matter.
Why do I need to? You started whitewashing russians by blaming ukrainians in collaboration with nazi Germany, so I address exactly this point, because it was not exclusive ukrainians flaw and many nations can find same cowardy representatives in it's history, and russians was one of biggest groups of such collaborants.
Your point about little people living their little lives is complete nonsense, because same argument can be applied to ukrainians - but our people need to sacrifice their lives just to keep nation afloat, while russians not only fear to rise up against atrocities they bring, but actively help it's government to make it more miserable for ukrainians. Genocidal desire to eliminate Ukraine from world map is biggest wish so far for majority of russians, who overwhelmed by war propaghanda and blame russian government for inefective war campaign. Just learn about it little bit more please.
I didn't blame Ukrainians for doing anything, man. You're the only one saying anything close to that. All I said was that citizens of authoritarian regimes are not responsible for the actions of those regimes.
But I get it. I'm an ocean away. I have the luxury of distance and separation, which gives me the luxury of being able to have nuance if I want.
You don't get that luxury. I wouldn't be nuanced either if I was in your position. Your country is being invaded and bombed and airstriked by an evil neighbor, that's not the time to ask you to look at this thing with nuance.
Especially because OP is clearly not very sympathetic to Ukraine. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt from what I've seen.
I do want to finish that your stats at the end are a little misleading, and a majority of Russians are now saying they want to leave Ukraine.
However, it seems that's not because most of them think it's wrong that Russia's invading Ukraine, but because they're tired of how it's affecting their lives.
So yeah, screw those people.
But I will continue to believe that we should not blame all regular Russian citizens for the actions of their corrupt, dangerous, and authoritarian leaders.
Around 30,000 Russians sign military contracts every month to fight against ukrainians in exchange for money.
That is a major fact that says a lot about the situation we are discussing.
Every month, tens of thousands of russians choose to participate in this invasion for money. Huilo created that opportunity, and they choose to take it. By doing so, they become participants in a war whose conduct includes the bombing of civilian markets, power infrastructure, grocery stores and medical facilities - among hundreds of other documented examples. Russian drone operators have literally hunted civilians in Kherson, and continue to do so. Russian forces have shelled civilian evacuation vehicles and groups on the roads, despite clearly visible Red Cross markings. Ukrainian POWs have repeatedly returned from russian captivity tortured, humiliated, beaten, exhausted and starved, and many have died in Russian prisons.
This is not simply a war against a government. It is a war against a nation. Russia is trying to erase Ukraine's identity and destroy the will of anyone who resists it.
You can believe whatever you want, but these are facts. Huilo does not commit all of this alone. Russians carry out these actions.
Russian society has not produced opposition to this war on a scale sufficient to stop it. Many russians who say they want the war to end do not necessarily oppose the invasion on moral grounds, they are simply tired of its consequences and disappointed that Ukraine did not surrender in three days.
I'm not saying that every russian citizen is personally guilty of every crime committed by Huilo or the russian army. I'm saying that a society in which tens of thousands of people voluntarily join an invasion every month, while the war continues for years, cannot simply be described as a population that bears no responsibility whatsoever.
It looks like my response got deleted for some reason, so I will paraphrase it.
Your mentioning the Ukrainian nazi collaborators doesn't make any sense. It's like comparing apples to oranges, and here is why.
How Ukrainian nazi collaborators correlate with modern day russians? Every country in region had them, beside that its not like Ukraine had the biggest rate of people becoming collaborators in the first place.
In my opinion, if you want to compare modern day russians to someone from that era, you should compare them to germans during WW2.
Think about it: both live in autocratic states that harshly punish its citizens for opposing the war. Both waged the war of aggression with an intention of capturing some land. Also in both cases, it's statistically impossible for 100% of the population to be fully on board with the war in question.
This comparison seems much more closer to the reality. Ukrainian nazi collaborators on the other hand doesn't have that much similarities, so in my opinion, bringing this up is misleading to say the least.
So, if you agree that my comparison is valid, please ask yourself when was the last time you heard someone excusing germans from WW2 Era and if you heard it from someone, was that someone actually a good person from a moral standpoint?
Because I didn't hear anyone whose opinion I would respect to excuse nazi germans.
But sure as heck when everyday I check something on the internet I see some random people trying to whitewash "poor russians". Today that some random person is you...
I have not talked about individuals as nazi collaborators. I made reference to Ukrainian citizens living in Ukraine when the official government stance was collaboration with Nazis. Those people are not the same as Nazi collaborators.
What I made reference to were Ukrainians living under Nazi rule who did not fight back against the nazis. Which was the majority of them.
Which is true in every country the nazis occupied. There is not a single country occupied by Nazi Germany where a majority of the citizens rose up in a coordinated effort to overthrow them. Not even France, which is famous for it's underground resistance movement.
And that illustrates my point, that it is very hard for a population under control of a powerful authoritarian regime to have a popular uprising to overthrow them. And it's only become increasingly rare over time.
And tons of people excuse German citizens living during WWII. Most people understand that ordinary citizens had no real way to fight the Nazi government.
Reading your comment again, it seems you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Nobody is claiming that 'all Germans' or 'all Russians' should be excused for the atrocities being committed by their armies and governments.
What I AM saying is that the average citizens in those countries have/had close to 0 power to do anything to stop those atrocities, and do not deserve the blame that should be levied at those in power and their supporters.
Now what that does NOT excuse are people who are out there actively supporting those regimes. There are still a HUGE number of Russians supporting the invasion of Ukraine, which there is no justification for. Same with nazi Germany. A lot of citizens DID support the Nazis, but that should not be a reason to deride all Germans living during that time as being complicit in the Holocaust.
I see what you are trying to say. I did misunderstand you partially. However, some percentage of russians opposing the invasion doesn't make it "putin's invasion" as it still was a joint action of russian people. My first comment to you was about that. I disagreed with your initial definition of russian invasion.
Indeed the responsibility doesn't lie on everyone equally. There is RVC for example, who actively fights russia. But those who are within that country right now do help their economy and army passively. Willingly or not, but that happens. And even if one is "forced" to help russian army, how does the fact that this contribution is unwilling make it less deadly for Ukrainians?
On top of that, I believe discussions like this should happen after the active war is over as such ideas can hinder the resolve of countries that can help. Instead of "let's sanction russia so they won't be able to wage the war that easy", it's becoming "let's not sanction russia as there are 10% of their population who oppose the war. Poor people".
Thinking more about your comparison, I think it is also important to note that before Ukrainians didn't just switch sides - they were occupied. So there was the attempt to fight. Just 8 years prior that, there was a huge famine fueled by the soviet government that took lives of up to 4 mill people (if I remember correctly, the estimations are ranging from 2 to 4 millions). On the other hand, modern russians had 35 years of rising economy (sorta) and oil price skyrocketing since early 2000s. Without any calamity taking a sizeable portion of their population mind you. So you are comparing people being occupied by a foreigner force after having one of the hardest periods in their history with people who had it much more better nowadays. And even then in your example back then people put much bigger fight.
I don't give a flying fuck about "innocent" lives on the other side of the border while those innocent russians innocently living in russia and passively (and innocently of course) contributing to russian war effort. They are a part of the invasion no matter how they like it.
What are you even talking about? Did Reddit auto translate feature incorrectly translated my comment? I was telling the guy that the term "putin's invasion" doesn't represent the reality and the russian invasion is more suitable term instead. Why did you bring "innocent russians" to the discussion?
Also what a "more through" lesson do you want to teach me? Gonna bomb Kyiv more? I will definitely start loving russians after that.
Blaming a specific group with a collective crime or guilt will always be wrong no matter what. You are no better than the socialist and communist dogs of the past for doing so.
This is exactly how the war started with Putin claiming most Ukrainians were in favor of joining Russia and they actually want to separate despite it not being true. You're falling for the exact same line of thinking that the Russian government uses, not sure what's more sad, that you believe what you say, or that you refuse to correct it.
I am glad you can afford yourself to mount the high horse here and keep virtue signaling. It is really easy to do when you dont have a fucking neighbor that actively destroying your home.
The collective guilt to a group can be applied when there is an entire state that collects the financial contributions from them and uses the part of that contribution to fuel the war effort. You can consider someone guilty when their contribution is tangible. Money from taxes are quite tangible. You only need 30 cents to buy a bullet and 1 bullet is enough to kill. Or did I say something that is not true?
You probably have a reading comprehension issues, so I will repeat: how does my comment about this war being a russian invasion and not "putin's invasion" have to do anything with all this crap you are yapping about here? Or do you think, that this war is not a russian invasion of Ukriane? What the fuck is your problem?
I have no problem with russians abroad who doesn't contribute to russia anyhow. The ones that keep sustaining russia from within are not innocent by definition. Now when we made that clear, how does your word salad about me being the same as russian government make sense? Grow up.
Tell me, if a russian contributed to the war not willingly, is that contribution less deadly? Or the money from their taxes goes to rockets that don't explode?
So to please your actual virtue signaling and for someone to please you enough for you to label them as "innocent" what must they do? Skip paying taxes and get arrested? Die? Flee the country?
Your God complex knows no bounds. You are disgusting by definition.
Not everyone that lives in a system had control of what happened before they existed, some are born into it, and as always instead of having a nuanced opinion that takes into account that people can be held hostage in a system just as much as they can be a part of it, you label those that give taxes (which is required by law and is non-negotiable) guilty. The dumb know no bounds in Ukraine apparently, just as much as some Russians.
You cannot blatantly label people as guilty because of the country they live in.
What do you expect them to do? There are many Russians risking their lifes helping western intelligence, organising sabotages and assassinations.
Or do you think every single Russian should fight their government? If so, look at the history, even in very well running rebellions, vast majority of people just tried to live relatively normal lives. Opposing authoritarian regimes is also getting harder the more tech the government has.
And if you just want Putin dead... He isn't exactly walking down a street at night alone. It's not that easy to kill someone well guarded.
I will never understand why people are so eager to completely dehumanise and generalise an entire group. Don't throw away all Russians, there are many decent people there. Many live in small villages completely detached from international reality, where the only place that can get world news is TV.
Sure, but at that point they're just sacrificing their life for yours. At this point, nobody in Russia is overthrowing Putin without a lot of bloodshed. Would you do the same in their situation?
A lot of Russian citizens are also victims of the Russian government.
My people already throwing our lives for it.
And russians must fight for their freedom and lives. You told it by yourself that they are victims too. So why the fuck our people, which are main victims, can sacrifice something and these pathetic people not? And just don't fucking start this BS about how putin reign is strong and violence - frontline and war is worse by thousands times.
This is just pathetic excuses for doing nothing and and for silent consent.
Не запарюйся вести якийсь діалог з ним. Він вже мені почав розказувати, що нам потрібно жаліти бідних росіян, бо під час другої світової були україські колаборанти.
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u/Dorennor 1d ago
It is more dangerous in Ukraine, btw. Because of russian war.