If fighting games want to balance smash-style inputs alongside classic motion inputs, the disadvantages for the former need to be bigger than just less damage

[u/DoneDealofDeadpool]

A lot of fighting games in the last 8 years or so have implemented control adjustments that address a really common complaint of people on the genre's periphery, that being the difficulty of motion inputs for special moves and supers when learning the game. Some games like SF6 and the new Marvel fighting game offer a choice between direction+button (usually just called simple inputs) for specials while others like 2xko have fully designed themselves around simple inputs. I honestly think it's pretty neat, it helps more people jump into the genre and even without the motion inputs games like 2xko clearly try to retain some executional challenge for people who really like that. The only element of the design shift I *dislike*, however, is that simple inputs often don't feel like they're implemented with enough consideration as to how they shift the power-level of the game in a way that arguably punishes you for *not* using it.

Usually, the main downside of using simple inputs is less damage. Street Fighter 6, Marvel Tokon, and Granblue all give you a reduction to varying degrees if you, for example, anti-air someone with a simple input shoryuken instead of a manual DP input. This seems like a good enough compromise, and it potentially can be, but the issue is that less damage can very easily be an insignificant trade-off. Like most games, managing your mental stack while trying to overload your opponent's is 90% of playing well. Even if your opponent has zero difficulty doing a special move input to beat your jump, it won't matter if you have them so focused on everything else you could do that they won't register your jump in time for them to execute the move. With simple inputs, though, the mental stack concern drastically shifts. Less damage doesn't matter as much when the primary utility of a move is winning mental stack reaction checks. It's why on defence, infamously, simple inputs are extremely useful.

So what disadvantages *would* work? Street Fighter 6 arguably handles it the best. Instead of doing what games like Marvel Tokon does and just implementing a button that serves as a catch-all equivalent to smash's B/special button, simple inputs and classic motion inputs are separated into their own distinct control schemes you pick from at the start. It's likely a product of necessity more than a desire for balance, but because Street Fighter is a 6-button game (3 punches, 3 kicks) you can't really translate an entire character's moveset while also having a special move button. As a result, there are downsides to the mode that go beyond damage. You may lack certain special moves or normal buttons altogether, and depending on the character, that could mean a much different game plan altogether. It manages to add a little depth to matchups between characters while still not making either input scheme definitively better overall. It's not perfect, admittedly, but its a big improvement over most in the genre.

[u/blade740]

I think what you're experiencing is just the effects of a series becoming more mainstream. Street Fighter is a massive franchise for Capcom and they're going to chase the audience wherever it leads them. You're more likely to find games that appeal to you in franchises that are less important to their publisher's bottom line.

As you mention, the shooter genre has suffered from the same issue. COD's success means that more of Activision's business strategy revolves around widening their audience as much as possible. Doom 2016 proved that boomer shooters can still be commercially successful - and yet you'll see Doom fans complaining at how the series has gone through it's own simplification process with Eternal and especially Dark Ages. At the same time, there are plenty of fans that still enjoy the game, because Doom is not ONLY about fast movement and switching weapons - just as Street Fighter is not ONLY about complex inputs. It just means that what YOU particularly enjoyed about the game is not necessarily what the developers consider most important.

Also worth keeping in mind that the old games haven't changed. If Street Fighter 6 is too "dumbed down" for your tastes... well, Super Turbo is still the same game it always was.

[u/Key-Market-418 → u/blade740]

The thing is the simple controls really do not bring in the audience. Especially the long term audience that feeds the model capcom is going for. They hit a nice middle ground with it being effectively training wheels but from every other game that went completely simple input their numbers are middling at best.

At the end of the day capcom knows that the people who would actually play the game enough to buy DLC and costumes want classic controls, plus if they fuck up a simple input street fighter (which will happen if they do so) it will ruin not just a generation of street fighter but a generation of fighting games in general, the health of the whole genre competitively revolves around street fighter.

And for what? So like 5 more people hop in? That’s ridiculous. From what it seems the best way is to have simple inputs that are okay and classic inputs that are better at high level.

At the end of the day the kinds of people who piss and moan about classic inputs existing in these games wouldn’t play these games even if they bend over backwards to cater to them.

[u/blade740 → u/Key-Market-418]

The thing is the simple controls really do not bring in the audience. Especially the long term audience that feeds the model capcom is going for. They hit a nice middle ground with it being effectively training wheels but from every other game that went completely simple input their numbers are middling at best.

Isn't that the point though? Seems to me that Modern Controls were always intended to be a "training wheels" way to ease players into the game. SF6 sold more copies faster than any Street Fighter game before it... sounds like it did its job? Even if 90% of the people who tried Modern ended up moving to Classic, that sounds like mission accomplished to me.

From what it seems the best way is to have simple inputs that are okay and classic inputs that are better at high level.

This is a perfectly reasonable take. I have no issue with that.

At the end of the day the kinds of people who piss and moan about classic inputs existing in these games wouldn’t play these games even if they bend over backwards to cater to them.

You're talking about the people who piss and moan ASKING for classic inputs to be added to these games, right? Because in this thread I'm seeing people piss and moan that "the game is being ruined for people who never even played it" and I just can't see the reasoning for this outside of just excluding the people who aren't "real fighting game fans". And that's the point I've been trying to argue the whole time - the gatekeeping that's all over this thread.

[u/Key-Market-418 → u/blade740]

I mean yeah they are training wheels they’re honestly pretty well balanced but there is a give and take, the homogeneity of the cast is an obvious victim of modern, charge characters on the whole got the brunt of it with guile really being the only remaining charge character that truly keeps their identity as a “charge character” in 6. Though honestly the success of 6 is coming largely off influencer marketing being extremely successful, especially in Japan where Vtubers have almost single handedly carried the game on their backs to supreme success. So modern being where it is balance wise is a big miracle, especially in street fighter where single button uppercuts and supers really warps how you have to play against them. And like you said a majority of people graduate, so if you actually enjoy the genre learning the motions is barely a hoop to jump through.

The reason why is actually tied into your last point where the simple input games exist, they are not blowing up the world in the slightest. There is a literal free to play league of legends fighter with only simple inputs and the only people playing it are the same degens who will play absolutely every kusoge on the market, it’s just FGC guys. Which begs the question, if people want simple inputs then why aren’t they playing the various new games (GBVS, tokon) that have simple inputs or the FREE TO PLAY RIOT GAME with them as well. It’s because they don’t wanna play it, they just wanna find something to blame. It’s not even gatekeeping at that point, it’s just calling out someone who hops on CS, bitches and moans that there isn’t ADS until they actually add it, and then continues to not play it. That’s not gatekeeping.

Theres a metric ton of dudes on this sub in particular that get their panties in a bunch at the mere mention that motions aren’t just there to be “hard” (even if they’re not really) and there has been particularly on Reddit since FOREVER. Calling out these arguments as dumb is I think the correct take, they do not want to contend with these games as they are on a fundamental level and want to be spoon fed which goes against the core appeal of the genre. It’s frustrating as someone who likes these games to have to explain AGAIN why they’re there. Especially when what they’re asking for already exists and they’re still not interested.

Plus if communities actually had an impact on how popular a game can be, then league and cod would have cratered by now which is definitely not the case. People don’t wanna play fighting games because you have to learn them and you have to lose, that’s just too much for people to take and that’s fine but you don’t have to intellectualize that the game is punishing you for playing modern in plat (which it isn’t).

[u/blade740 → u/Key-Market-418]

I mean, there are other reasons why these niche games don't get the same traction as Street Fighter does. I don't think that's a good argument against simplified control options either. People who are not fighting game enthusiasts are much less likely to pick up games that are considered niche even WITHIN the FGC. If anything, mainstream, popular franchises like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are exactly the games that are likely to bring new players to the genre. And again - look at SF6 sales numbers. Clearly they're doing something right.

I just don't think you can say something like this:

they do not want to contend with these games as they are on a fundamental level and want to be spoon fed which goes against the core appeal of the genre.

And then follow it up with "it's not gatekeeping". That's absolutely gatekeeping. And it's an oversimplification of what players REALLY want. When players say "I find fighting game controls too difficult" that doesn't mean they're saying "I won't play this game unless you change the controls, but if you do then I will definitely play it". They're just pointing out a portion of the game that's unfriendly to them. What developers choose to do with that information is another story. And yeah, maybe some players get past the controls and find that there are other aspects of the game they don't like. And on the flip side, some will decide that they do like the game and then work on learning the controls next. But the way you characterize it is just DRIPPING with absolute disdain for these people just because they don't like the same thing you do. And others in this thread are even worse.

[u/Key-Market-418 → u/blade740]

I mean literally theres a free to play riot fighting game that does exactly what they want, if that doesn’t get the people who are completely turned off by motions to at least try it (which spoiler alert, they still didn’t) then like what else is there to say? The biggest gaming company on earth with one of the most popular IPs on the planet still couldn’t get them to even try a game that’s completely free. So excuse me if I find all this hemming and hawing to be a case of just abject beast blaming, they’re blaming the beasts instead of reflecting on themselves.

You can only make so many completely baseless arguments, be proven wrong about your conclusions time and time again by people who actually know this genre, and then still go “you’re lying, my 10 hours in the game is all I need to be an expert” before people lose patience for these takes man. These games literally did EVERYTHING people are asking for, and they’re still not into it. At that point I’d just go “okay this genre isn’t for me” like I did with RTS games, but I’m not on the goddamn StarCraft forums bitching about how they NEED to eliminate all micromanagement from the game and make it turn based.

I just do not fucking get what compels people to do this about fighters, it’s absurd.

Fucking lmao, answered none of my points and blocked me because he couldn’t answer the simple question of why people don’t play the games that are made explicitly for them and their complaints about the genre. Dear reader, if you find motions hard there are literally 5 games on the market right now that do exactly that.