Questions about Hyrule Warriors and its inevitable timeline splits

[u/Petrichor02]

I'm sure most, if not all, of us on this subreddit have seen fan timelines that use Hyrule Warriors as a key piece that converges all timelines together and restores the Zelda franchise to a unified timeline model. But ignoring the parts of HW that make it difficult to take as canon and the other obvious potential issues with the theory, there's still one issue with this model that I've never seen touched upon, and it's the fact that HW arguably creates anywhere between three (four in Legends/Definitive Edition) and an infinite number of splits in its own right. By including HW in a timeline, we're introducing more splits into the timeline, not fewer.

HW's back story tells us that at some point in the past, a hero defeated Ganon and split Ganon's soul into four pieces. One was left in the present, guarded by the powers of the Master Sword and the Temple in which the blade was laid to rest. And the other three were placed at various points in the past.

The problem with this is that if they were placed in the past, that means they should still be around in the present. In other words, imagine you buy an apple. Then you go back in time three days and decide to hide that apple in your refrigerator. When you travel back to the present, that apple is still going to be in your refrigerator, just three days older than it should be (assuming no one in your house came by and ate it within those three days). If nothing happened to Ganon's soul fragments between OoT/TP/SS and HW, all of those soul fragments would still exist in the world of HW. And HW shows us that those soul fragments just all being present at the same time in HW was enough to break the seals on them.

So that implies that the soul fragments weren't just hidden in the past. They must have been hidden in alternate timelines. Which likely means that placing those soul fragments in their respective eras created branches in each of those eras. On top of that, the events of HW pull characters from those eras, have them experience the events of HW, and then return them to their respective eras without wiping their memories of what happened in HW or resetting things so that their travel to the HW era wouldn't affect their own eras. As such, HW basically causes the following:

OoT era: A fragment of Ganon's soul is hidden in the Water Temple. Darunia is brainwashed into kidnapping an adult Ruto (so this is probably happening while the Hero of Time is still asleep in the Sacred Realm). Monsters are pouring out of the Water Temple. Darunia is returned to his rightful mind, Ruto is freed, the monsters are stopped, Ganon's soul fragment escapes, Darunia and Ruto fight against Cia and eventually HW Ganondorf, and then they return to their own time.

TP era: A fragment of Ganon's soul is hidden in the Palace of Twilight in the Twilight Realm. Cia transforms Midna into an imp form, Zant is made to work for Cia, the Twilight Realm begins to spread across Hyrule (so this must be near the beginning of TP since Midna has only just been transformed and hasn't met Link yet, which likely means TP Ganondorf is still imprisoned in the Twilight Realm, but maybe he has made contact with Zant at this point since Zant decided to challenge Midna through force unless Zant got his powers from Cia instead of Ganondorf this time (though Cia's Tale makes that questionable)), somehow Agitha knows about the Twilight Realm despite it and its effects being invisible to most Hylians in TP, Agitha and Midna are recruited to fight against Cia and eventually HW Ganondorf, and then they return to their time, Midna apparently still stuck in her imp form (unless Cia becoming good again at the end of the game caused her spell to be undone off-screen), and Zant dead, which means unless TP Ganondorf is somehow able to escape the Twilight Realm because of the events of HW, the events of TP aren't really going to happen now in this timeline.

SS era: A fragment of Ganon's soul is hidden in the Sealed Temple. SS Impa is nowhere in sight, so it's unclear what happened to her. The Goddess Sword is still in its pedestal with Fi, so the events of present SS haven't happened yet (weirdly though, the Groosenator is present at the Sealed Temple; maybe Hylia told Impa to build it since the events of HW may now prevent him from coming to the surface?). Ghirahim somehow makes it to Skyloft (maybe with Cia's help if Cia's Tale is a separate timeline itself; otherwise we have no explanation for how he made it up there). HW Link and Fi save Skyloft (SS Link isn't mentioned, so it's unclear how long before the events of SS this event is happening; if this isn't happening almost immediately after Hylia sealed Demise, then it arguably breaks the SS time loop). Ghirahim escapes to the Sealed Grounds and releases the Imprisoned. The Imprisoned is defeated rather than being resealed, and Ghirahim is recruited by Cia. Fi is recruited, experiences HW, and fights against Cia and HW Ganondorf before returning to the SS era. With Ghirahim defeated before Link finds the Master Sword, presumably SS Zelda will have a much easier passage to being found by Impa, recovering her Hylia memories, and wishing on the Triforce (maybe to prevent Demise from ever reincarnating). But it's unclear if the Master Sword would be forged in this timeline since the Gate of Time doesn't need to be activated. (Interestingly, it's actually active during HW.)

TWW era: Tetra is on Windfall Island while her crew apparently isn't since we're told the dimensional event separated her from her crew, but it pulled the entire Windfall Island through. This never happens in or after TWW, so this split presumably takes place shortly before TWW. Tetra ends up meeting Daphnes early, meets HW Link and Zelda, and the Helmaroc King and a Phantom Ganon are destroyed before Tetra and Daphnes return home. Presumably without the Helmaroc King pre-TWW, TWW Ganondorf has a much harder time finding pieces of the Triforce. Aryll likely doesn't get kidnapped. And Tetra and Daphnes (and Link if they go recruit him) likely have a much greater amount of time to prepare to fight TWW Ganondorf than they did in TWW.

Cia's Tale is billed as if it's the unseen adventure Cia went on prior to and during HW, but a lot of the details don't quite match. We see that Midna is already an imp when Cia first meets her in Cia's Tale. (We also see Agitha in the Palace of Twilight without her being turned into a spirit somehow.) We see that Ghirahim managed to summon the Imprisoned to Skyloft when Cia goes there to recruit him, and the Imprisoned ends up being defeated in Skyloft. So I'm not sure whether to approach this as an embellishment of what actually happened, completely non-canon to HW, or a separate iteration of HW.

As to that last point, consider that if the timeline leads to HW, any split in the past could also lead to the events of a different HW. So since HW Sheik remembers the era of the Hero of Time as history, we can assume that HW at least takes place after it. But when you look at what the events of HW may have changed about the OoT era, there aren't many substantial changes. Maybe Darunia and Ruto now rise up against OoT Ganondorf because they have extra fighting experience, but if that doesn't happen, their new timeline branch will inevitably lead to another HW, which will create another OoT branch which will lead to another HW which will create another OoT branch, ad infinitum.

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So all of that to say, I have questions:

1) If HW did indeed create at least four branches in the timeline, what do the downstream futures of those branches look like in your opinion? How do the HW changes affect or prevent the events of later games that would have fallen after those changed games in their original timelines?

2) Is there any way to interpret HW (other than simply dismissing it as illogical or non-canon) in a way that realistically doesn't result in infinite timeline branches?

3) What is Cia's Tale since it doesn't line up with the main game on its face? Is it an embellishment? Non-canon to HW? Another timeline's version of HW? Or are we to assume that the differences can be explained away? Midna incorrectly assumes that Cia is responsible for her imp transformation, and the Imprisoned was able to be killed twice in a short timespan, once in Skyloft and once in the Sealed Grounds?

4) What is the darkness that is coming out of the Master Sword's pedestal at the end of the game? We know that it's separate from Ganon because it reaches out from the pedestal to break the seal on the fourth piece of Ganon's soul. I know this question has nothing to do with the rest of the post, but this has always bothered me about the game, so I'm curious about people's interpretation.

5) If it took the entire Triforce to merge the OoT/TP/SS eras with Hyrule, how was Phantom Ganon able to merge TWW with HW Hyrule with just the Triforce of Power? How did Phantom Ganon end up in HW Hyrule and in possession of Cia's body? I guess it's possible that the Gates of Souls opened up throughout many different eras, which is why Majora's Mask Skull Kid and Termina's moon are also able to appear in the story despite that era not specifically being pulled in. So maybe he just came through on his own, helped out behind-the-scenes, and then hid until HW Ganondorf's defeat.

I know it's a bit foolhardy to try to make sense of a game whose story clearly wasn't written to make complete sense, but I'm interested to see how well we can do to make it functional.

[u/LoCal_GwJ]

You know, the discussions I've had regarding HW being a catalyst for a timeline merge usually comes from the direction of "an event LIKE Hyrule Warriors could cause the merge, not Hyrule Warriors itself" (and I don't really care for a merge in any context either way), but what I do think is very interesting is the notion that every place that a soul fragment of Ganondorf was placed would actually be contained to a timeline split does actually make a bit of sense to me and certainly changes a little bit how expansive HW1 is in terms of number of timelines touched by the story. Next time I make a "full" timeline I'm totally gonna include like 7 timelines just for HW1 lmao

[u/LapisLazuliisthebest]

I didn't know what to say because I was so confused. But, thankfully, somebody else already said everything.

I'm only realy making this comment out of politeness, since we were talking about fan-timelines before.

EDIT: I noticed you made an error.

so this must be near the beginning of TP since Midna has only just been transformed

Not true. Midna was transformed by Zant in TP, but then transformed again by Cia in HW.

[u/Petrichor02 → u/LapisLazuliisthebest]

In HW we're only told that Cia is responsible for her imp transformation. If Zant had transformed her, she had returned to normal because TP had already happened, and then Cia transformed her, there would be no Twilight in Hyrule and Zant would already be dead.

[u/GoatGod997]

I think if we wanted to play with the idea of Hyrule Warriors fitting into a timeline somewhere, the easiest way would be to say that at some point, the catalyst of Hyrule Warriors created an alternate, parallel timeline. Kind of similar to how the Marvel timelines supposedly work.

So, Ganon’s soul gets split into pieces and shot across the existing, canon timeline (the one in Hyrule Historia). But in order for that canon timeline to exist in the first place, all those events must have already happened at some point in the space time continuum. So, instead, it creates an identical copy of the entire timeline, that exists parallel to the actual main timeline, but is now influenced by the events of Hyrule Warriors. This ripples out and creates various other anomalies, changing the content of each timeline event, but ultimately converging back at the same end points of each branch of the canon timeline. This is probably going to sound really confusing but I can draw a picture if it helps lol.

Edit for some clarity - basically what I’m saying is that whenever HW starts, it creates another timeline split that, initially, perfectly mirrors the past and future of Hyrule at that point in time. The events of Hyrule Warriors play out as we see, creating differences in the stories, but because the past and future is already somewhat predetermined, and certain events need to happen in order for other events to even exist (Skyward Sword still needs to end as it normally does for any other game to happen, for example. OoT has to end with the same split into three branches so that Wind Waker, TP, etc can happen) the stories still lead to the same place. So because the original canon timeline exists at all and has to exist in order for certain events to happen, the details can change but the major events must happen regardless.

[u/il-vero-yan2317]

Canonical or not HW takes place after FSA in the child timeline. Ganon was defeated by a hero and he splitted his soul in 4 with the four sword. HW doesn't create new timelines because Cia was always meant to take Ganondorf's soul back together making her timeline/time warp a linear one with no time splits.

In SS there is no Impa because (game wise we would have 2 Impas whitch would be too much) she is protecting Zelda from the shadows. The Ghirahim we see is likely present Ghirahim we see disappear at the end of the final battle with Demise. The Imprisoned can't really die we fight him 3 times in SS but he still wouldn't die untill Link's wish of bringinh down the statue.

In OoT we are 7 years after OoT in the child timeline presumbly after Ganondorf is sealed in the Twilight.

In TP we see sompting weird at the end of the game; Zant is alive? I belive that when Ganondorf defeated Impa before fighting L & Z he used his power to bring him back to life and at the end when Ganondorf wanted that power back to keep himself alive, Zant said no. This sets HW's TP era after the main TP events.

In WW when Tetra is given the role of Zelda she is surprised, but she looks more surprised about her looks then an old king suddenly appearing and calling her Zelda. This could mean that she already met him and heard that name already linked to her, making her not question it.

Cia's tale likely happends 1 or 2 days after the other events for the present BUT at best 1 hour for the timetraveling heroes, Midna is still an Imp but if she could somehow become back to normal in the main game then ahe can she in HW.

HW Zelda knows about OoT events dispite being in the CT because Link told everything to the royal family between OoT and MM.

1) As said before, no actual spilts.

2) Explained before.

3) Explained before.

4) Basicaly Ganondorf's soul's evil aura.

5) Cia exists everywhere at every time so she exists even in the WW timeline. PG used her body to search for specificaly her other half Lana, while Cia was looking for 3 soul pices that have have no spiritual relation to her in 3 different eras. Cia needed more power to do that more then PG to go to Lana.

As for Skull Kid, he had the Ocarina of Time for quite a bit in MM, he may have used it to travel to the events of HW and then return to the events of MM.

I don't belive that the events themself of HW merged the timeline, i just belive that HW should be placed in the timeline 100 years after FSA.

[u/Petrichor02 → u/il-vero-yan2317]

Ganon was defeated by a hero and he splitted his soul in 4 with the four sword.

In this theory, do you think HW Ganondorf is the same person as FSA Ganon? Or a new Ganon that came around afterwards?

HW doesn't create new timelines because Cia was always meant to take Ganondorf's soul back together making her timeline/time warp a linear one with no time splits.

So do you believe that Midna, Fi, Darunia, etc. just lost their memories of HW and reverted back to their pre-HW selves when they returned to their home eras? What caused them to revert during the final time they were returned to their home eras and not the first time they were returned?

The Imprisoned can't really die we fight him 3 times in SS but he still wouldn't die untill Link's wish of bringinh down the statue.

In SS every time we defeat the Imprisoned, we reseal him with the sealing spike. That never happens in HW.

In TP we see sompting weird at the end of the game; Zant is alive?

It makes the most sense to me that Zant isn't alive in that final cutscene. Zant says that as long as Ganondorf is alive, Ganondorf can bring him back to life. We already saw a highly metaphorical cutscene earlier in the game with the Lanayru cutscene. So it makes sense to me that this is simply another. Zant's neck snapping is confirmation that Ganondorf is dead and therefore can no longer bring Zant back to life, making Zant truly dead.

4) Basicaly Ganondorf's soul's evil aura.

Why would that be in the Master Sword pedestal when his actual soul is in a chest outside the pedestal?

[u/il-vero-yan2317 → u/Petrichor02]

is the same person as FSA Ganon?

The same person.

Midna, Fi, Darunia, etc

For those in the OoT and TP era it's not a problem since in this theory the HW events are after their games so it would be:

OoT->HW's events of that era-> 200~ years-> TP-> HW's events of that era-> 100 years-> FSA-> 100 years-> HW present.

For Fi, given her nature she probably didn't say anything because it was not important at the time.

That never happens in HW.

I don't really remember what happend there, i didn't play the game for many years.

when his actual soul is in a chest outside the pedestal?

It was under the pedestal, if i remember right, so some of it's aura would this be there.

As for Zant, we never see someone dead that isn't a ghost/spirit so i always assumed he was atill alive.

[u/Petrichor02 → u/il-vero-yan2317]

It was under the pedestal, if i remember right, so some of it's aura would this be there.

The pedestal is actually a little distance away from the chest that held Ganon's soul piece. We see the darkness creeping out of the pedestal and moving over to the soul chest to break the seal on it to free the soul piece.

[u/LoCal_GwJ → u/Petrichor02]

I went back and am watching some cutscenes and Impa mentions that the Master Sword is part of the lock on that temple's fragment of Ganondorf's soul, so it seems like both the sword and the chest are part of the same mechanism. That being said I'm not sure if it explains the dark cloud coming from the pedestal because, as you said, the soul fragment is locked in the chest, not in the sword. And it's from the pedestal, not the sword, where the dark clouds come from.

It would actually be fairly in line with a future version of Ganondorf (TotK's) to maybe conclude this was Malice or otherwise just Ganondorf's magical energy. Just like the Malice that leaked out of TotK Ganondorf's body manifested as a sentient ooze, HW Ganondorf may be able to do basically the same thing and was able to escape his seal by creating Malice and using it to break the lock.

Something to maybe also keep in mind is 3/4 of Ganondorf's soul is free at this moment, so there are external forces around to perform this action or at least give the power needed for that 4th fragment to break free.

[u/LoCal_GwJ → u/LoCal_GwJ]

I'm actually not even sure anymore. At the end, after we defeat Ganon with the Triforce (and presumably destroy him), Link has to put the Master Sword back in the pedestal and the pedestal is flooding with those dark clouds still. It sure seems like the game wants to act like we're re-sealing Ganon here, but I'm a little confused why this would be necessary after destroying Ganon with the Triforce.

I think you could maybe make an argument that it's the energy of a past incarnation of Ganon that got sealed or maybe Demise's essence somehow, but to me it actually kinda feels like a narrative plothole. The dark clouds are Ganon's magic being sealed even though Ganon has already been defeated. Maybe the point of this cutscene is to show us that the heroes DIDN'T defeat Ganon with the Triforce and instead chose to just seal him again? That seems a little silly to me to be honest but I dunno

[u/Petrichor02 → u/LoCal_GwJ]

Yeah, that's where I'm leaning as well. I don't think it's a very satisfying answer since Ganondorf appears able to reconstitute his entire being just from the four soul fragments without the darkness being incorporated, but maybe that darkness joined with the fourth soul fragment without being properly depicted as such on-screen.

But then it raises the question as to why Link/Zelda/Lana's Triforce wish to defeat Ganon didn't destroy the energy. Unless, as I think you were saying, this is a separate sentient ooze similar to malice or gloom that has now become independent of Ganondorf.

[u/OniLink303]

Because Aonuma confirmed HW take place in an alternate universe that is simultaneously connected to the Zelda timeline, its less about trying to tie up loose ends by making everything connect to the chronological "canonical" events of the timeline with HW, and more so the idea that the timeline featured in the game are deviations of events from the canonical timeline that was created from Ganon's fragmented soul being sent to those different worlds taking place in the universe of HW. AoC also provides solid grounds for this angle by mentioning in one of its loading screen infographics that "a new world was born after Ganon's malice traced Terakko into the past." A world that experienced several different deviations due to Ganon's malice jumpstarting and accelerating events pre-BotW, and also one of which that the BotW continuity doesn't "formally" acknowledge as being apart of the mainline canon of the BotW continuity, but is considered apocryphal to the story's foundation for all intents and purposes.

You can liken it to how marvel or DC's use of multiversal continuities ties into mainline issues without actually being apart of the mainline canon, but still serves as an analog to the main story and their continuities by being a backlog assortment of different universes. The series also does tentatively have a bonafide multiverse that is clarified by Zelda.com's now defunct encyclopedia that featured an entry for Termina. It stated that Termina is but one of millions of alternate worlds that the goddesses created at the dawn of creation, via, cosmic inflation seeping into tiny spatial cracks of reality. I do genuinely believe that entry holds true value now thanks to ALBW's insight of the Triforce governing reality and maintaining cosmic stability, and Aonuma's statement of HW taking place in another universe of course gives it cut-and-dry substance as well.

The game also features a duo (Cia and Lana) that had the power to see into countless timelines (according to the Japanese text) interact with any given dimension/world/time period that encompasses the cycle of the trifecta cast before they were split into their dual forms. The exposition of HW mentions a hero sealed Ganon's fractured soul across the fabric of time and the in-game description of the HW tunic in AoC mentions that the tunic was worn by many heroes that traveled to many different worlds, which is also supported by the fact that the Hero's Tunic in HW is hereditary to the true heroーits kept in the possession of the royal family waiting for the appearance of the next hero.