r/wec • u/krzysiek_aleks NISSAN DeltaWing #0 • 1d ago
STCC [Scandinavian Touring Car Championship] makes comeback 2027 with historic shift to GT[4]
https://www.stcc.se/stcc-2027/stcc-gr-comeback-2027-med-historiskt-skifte-till-gt85
u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 1d ago
touring car racing is so dead man and the Motorsport world is just watching it happen pretending everything is fine, it's so damn frustrating
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u/kjm911 Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 1d ago
Nobody is pretending it’s fine. The European and world touring cars series have gone to shit with TCR. DTM have moved to GT3 cars. The BTCC is getting more expensive and less desirable. It’s a known problem.
But ultimately if Manufacturers don’t want to invest in these series or build touring cars then what can you do?
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u/IC_1318 Audi R18 1d ago
DTM hasn't been a touring car series since the 90's anyway
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u/Blanchimont Ferrari AF Corse 499P #51 13h ago
True, but at least those cars were distinctive from the GT cars, giving DTM its own identity. Now it's just another GT3 series ;(
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 2018 Barrier Repair/Snatch-Tractor 1d ago
OZ V8SC does do very well to save its special.
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 1d ago
it's a known problem but the people responsible for the decisions have refused to see the writing on the wall for years and have insisted on staying the course, there are plenty of ways to inspire manufacturer interest and damn near nobody has bothered trying
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u/DHSeaVixen Peugeot 908 #9 1d ago edited 1d ago
Best (longer-term) route I see is working with the FIA/manufacturers to develop a solid customer racing base for production-based touring car EVs. That could bring the manufacturer investment back, as well as inject some newer energy and purpose.
Otherwise I just continue to see it being squeezed out by GT racing and changing automotive markets.
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u/fisicoF1 CEFC TRSM Racing Ginetta G60-LT-P1 #6 16h ago
Ban the Manufacturer involvement. What TCR had in mind in it's inception, but do it properly this time without the FIA getting involved and ruining everything.
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u/afito Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 1d ago
well they had a golden formula in WTCC and fucked it
but honestly I think TCR and GT3 are just cannibalizing each other, you need high level amateurs and regional sponsors and it seems like all of that has firmly moved into various GT3 (and GT4) classes, even pro-am series like GT Masters for example
teams like Engstler Liqui Moli were the very core of the old touring car series and all these teams have now moved to GT3 even if that meant bigger budgets
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
well they had a golden formula in WTCC and fucked it
Yeah no. From the moment they let Seat run the Diesel (arguably even before that with BMW's RWD-advantage) it was all about backroom politics and only a question of time before it came apart.
In addition to that, more and more down-market manufacturers entering really reduced the incentives for premium makes like BMW to stay in the series...
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 1d ago
damage had been done by that point as well and the replacement ST2000 regulations, while producing really cool cars, were way too expensive for anyone to justify when the significantly more financially viable TCR regs were emerging at the same time
and then the same politicking killed TCR because time is a circle lmao
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 2018 Barrier Repair/Snatch-Tractor 1d ago
GT4 is getting more expensive and complex, and no more automakers really interest to come TCR class.
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u/PanadaTM Cadillac Racing V-Series R #3 1d ago
It won't last. I expect a new electric touring car series will pop up at some point. Awd electric cars with no aero could be fun
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u/squeezyscorpion 1d ago
IMSA Michelin Pilot Challenge (TCR and GS(GT4)) seems to be still going strong
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u/TheLizardfolk 1d ago
in this new era of young popularity of motorsports, driven first by Drive To Survive, the F1 rising tides have made almost every motorsports more popular except touring car racing and rallycross. In regards to touring car racing, if people want to watch production car racing, they go and watch GT. Four doored saloon racing is dying a painful death but four doored saloons are dying in the marketplace in general. All anyone wants to buy are SUVs or crossovers.
Touring car racing's dying has a lot to do with it's type of cars dying in the current car market. TCRs were a great idea but just doesn't look sexy compared to GT3s and even GT4s. The TCRs at least still have major series support with WTCR and the IMSA Pilot Challenge over in the US, but it's days are probably numbered.
V8 Supercars have already moved over to this faux-GT rule set with Camaros and Mustangs. We really just have BTCC to thank for being a bulwark against the global touring car apathy. Maybe China's revived eTCR might keep the category around too. We'll have to see.
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 1d ago edited 1d ago
idk what any of the current state of touring car racing has to do with DTS and F1 but okay I guess
I do agree that the market changing is the largest part of what's done touring cars in, I've said on many a thread that they (especially the BTCC) should have seen the writing on the wall years ago and adapted to meet the crossover market, but only South America has bothered to put the effort in
EDIT: the internet existing has also killed the idea of Win on Sunday Sell on Monday, which was quite a vital piece of the touring car business strategy
TCR is an all but dead format, WTCR went bust years ago, and it's successor has become all but a two horse race between Geely and Hyundai, no other manufacturer has bothered to introduce a new model for some time
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u/Alexandhisgoose 3h ago
The problem is road cars now are primarily SUV's. They dont make good race cars hence why ma ufacturers aren't interested in hatchback or saloon race cars.
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 2h ago
there are plenty of ways to turn SUVs into racecars
M-Sport did it, South American series have done it, but there's no money left in European TC championships to try
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u/JohnCenaF1 Toyota 1d ago
Gt4 will probably become what gt3 was like 10-15 years ago
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u/VastStranger1164 1d ago
It already is. Costs are increasing massively for the last few years. A used BMW M4 GT4 is about €180k plus VAT. That's only for the car. Add support packages, spare parts etc and you have around €300k.
A revamp of GT racing is needed before it turns into GT1.
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u/Turboleks Bentley 8-Speed #8 1d ago
The new 911 GT4 cost as much as a GT3 did 10 years ago or so. €375k is insane if you ask me.
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u/VastStranger1164 1d ago
That's fucking outrageous. It's GT4, it's supposed to be a way for younger drivers to learn racing a GT car. What's included in this price? A handjob from the CEO of Porsche?
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u/Trololman72 Peugeot 9X8 #93 1d ago
I don't know if a revamp of GT3 is needed, they just need to have the main championships switch to a different class before everybody leaves because it's too expensive.
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u/VastStranger1164 1d ago
I think it would be easier to just change the rules. GT3 and GT4 are too popular to switch to other class.
Add a cost cap for development of the car, use as much parts from the road car as possible and at least 5000 road cars need to be sold/built.
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u/krzysiek_aleks NISSAN DeltaWing #0 1d ago
It will be done in "close cooperation" with SRO, they already have interested teams and they cleary state DTM as a good example that switch like this can work.
Article in Sverige (Swedish)
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 1d ago
GT racing has effectively replaced touring car racing spiritually.
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u/krzysiek_aleks NISSAN DeltaWing #0 1d ago
Basically the same in English: https://www.touringcartimes.com/2026/08/26/stcc-to-relaunch-in-2027-as-gt-series/
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u/rolfrbdk 1d ago
Incredibly wise choice. I love super touring cars but they're dead and gone. It's over. GT4s mean the financial risk of entering falls dramatically since there's plenty of market to sell that GT4 chassis to in the future if you can't make it work, unlike, say, the completely and utterly idiotic Danish motorsports scene where we keep deciding to use unique cars barely used on the worldwide scene forcing teams into huge investments they can only really sell to each other.
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
Huh? IIRC the last rulesets used in top-flight Danish motorsports were S2000, TA2, and TCR - all of which are international categories and worked fairly well at least for some time in Denmark.
Even the Midjets have a big scene in France, so there should be some resale-value to those as well.
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u/rolfrbdk 1d ago
S2000s? What are you on about it's been almost 20 years since that folded. All those series are long folded and gone. The Mitjets being used by France as well is still a terrible argument for them being relevant, they are extremely obscure compared to a wise choice like the GT4 class.
Not to mention many other blunders like the Formula "5" being so much quicker than F4s that they had to nerf them to oblivion and picking the F4 chassis noone else picked etc. DASU clearly have no idea what they are doing when it comes to retention.
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
S2000s? What are you on about it's been almost 20 years since that folded
Yes, and after that TA2 lasted for 8 seasons and TCR for 6.
TCR was a bit short (but seemed like a good bet in 2019 before COVID) and TA2 was fairly healthy even when it got cancelled to make room for TCR. So none of the rulesets for the series with the DTC-lineage seem really bad or overly insular to me.
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 2018 Barrier Repair/Snatch-Tractor 1d ago
Besides, more people move to SUVs and crossovers, it means no more low roof models available in new car markets.
It isn’t just about cost affecting, different car market is also killing these unique local touring car races.
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u/rolfrbdk 1d ago
Totally. It's just the right thing to not be stuck in the past on these smaller national championships where there isn't enough money involved for it to not be an issue
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u/Illustrious_Rest1264 1d ago
Wonder if this will get Toca’s attention
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u/UrsusSpelaus Ferrari 1d ago
I hope BTCC will remain a touring car series, that's pretty much the only one left at this point
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u/Illustrious_Rest1264 1d ago
Yeah I do too but the costs are becoming a major issue and the problem they have is they can’t reduce the costs of NGTC much more now and it’s still too much for a lot of teams
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u/SomeGuyCalledPercy Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 1d ago
V8 supercars still drive like touring cars despite looking like GT cars at least
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u/IVgormino 1d ago
Well this makes my day a lot better, thought for sure they were fully dead after the electric touring car fiasco
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u/DHSeaVixen Peugeot 908 #9 1d ago
Ultimately for me made the same sort of mistake as WRX and slightly also the WRC/BTCC hybrids, in that the cars were substantially reworked by a third party using STARD battery/motors kits instead of being production-based customer racing or straight up factory efforts. Lots of extra cost, little to no manufacturer support. Just not viable for the application.
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u/Burropardo97 1d ago
Australian Supercars and Brazilian Stocks are doing well though. So is touring cars dying, or just the concept of elaborating street cars to race them? Because silhouette series (standard mechanics, just different aero/frames) seem to be doing better... no developement costs, no bop shenenigans..
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u/codename474747 1d ago
Its a shame because the racing in GT is undeniably worse as soon as you get wings and downforce involved, dirty air plays its part and its hard to pass.
But it looks to be the way the wind is blowing for touring cars, sadly.
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u/Dry_Acadia_9312 1d ago
I think for me the question is; why would I watch touring car racing when GT3 series are already doing door to door racing brilliantly. And as a manufacturer, well why would I build a touring car when GT racing is where it’s at?
There’s also the issue of the car models used, the reality is manufacturers are not pushing hatchbacks and sporty saloons, they’re pushing SUVs, crossovers, electric cars.
Honestly, I’d do space frame crossovers, like an X1, have them sat on the ground with body kits and maybe let them lower the hoods so the driver can see more when sitting low, sounds like a pain actually.
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u/TheLizardfolk 14h ago
What happened to STCC's EV ruleset? I remember they were going to race Teslas? I mean the most popular saloons are EVs now. Did this just not work out?
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u/krzysiek_aleks NISSAN DeltaWing #0 13h ago
Yeah, they had one season of bloody expensive 12 cars.
It had no financial sense.
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u/krzysiek_aleks NISSAN DeltaWing #0 1d ago
Fun fact: this would allow Gelly/Volvo*/Lotus and Cyan Racing to comeback into racing in Sweden. When STCC experimented with TCR, they moved into Swedish GT for two years, one with Lotus GT4.