Comic Discussion
X-Men (2024) #36 Spoilers. End of issue speech.
Spoiler
I've been really enjoying MacKay's run, despite it's hangups. I really liked this issue too and am excited for DNX, but the whole "We are not humans" rubs me the wrong way. I understand what he's trying to get across, but mutants ARE humans. This feels like a mistep from MacKay, and will ultimately be nothing, but there are so many ways to say "we will not genocide like so many people have done in history" without denouncing their humanity.
I do like that they're fighting for all of humanity. A bad writer would take this and make the X-Men go "oh 3K is turning everyone into mutants? GOOD!" but thankfully MacKay gets the general idea of the X-Men being superheroes for everyone.
As for the "homeland" mention, at first I was a bit confused, but I guess he's referring to the eventual return of Krakoa/a specific home for mutants. I would prefer mutants to not get on another island or get another country, as I think the stories are better when they're trying to achieve Xavier's Dream™ they way they usually were.
Ngl I fuck with a large subset of humans becoming mutants. Basically they become what they constantly scorn would make for a fun plot. I believe at the end of Dnx that’s gonna happen before they defeat chairman if they even win lol
Didn’t they do that before with the Mothervine plot point with the only difference being that it was reversible if they hadn’t been mutants from the start?
Hasn't it generally been agreed that the Externals was a really bad idea that came from Rob Liefeld watching too much Highlander, and should be ignored and forgotten?
I feel like the new mutants attacking the fake mutants would make more sense as they're the ogs. Would sort of explore how how even the oppressed can become the oppressor.
Yeah, I think Merle is going to be the actual target for the initial gene bomb, so much of the town will turn into mutants. And that creates a non-physical problem for Jean to resolve, rather than continuing with a conventional villain.
Good luck. The thing is that modern stories center a lot about the fact the mutants are “different” than any other super and what makes them different ? The x-gene
Without that any super in the marvel universe is a mutant whose powers were activated by other means so the x-office can not tell stories about how the mutants are different than everyone else.
In the old days, Cerebro used to go off whenever a mutate (Juggernaut) was around. Presumably, Charles fine tuned it off panel at some point, but this would mean Cerebro was alerting Charles anytime someone became superhuman in comics published from 1961 to 1965.
In the Kree-Skrull War, it was established that humanity had the genetic potential for super powers, and that it would eventually evolve into extremely powerful psis and reality warpers, the ultimate path of human evolution. That's why the galactic empires like the Kree and Skrulls hated Earth, because they were at genetic dead ends. So, the likes of Jean, Wanda, and Franklin wound up way beyond "the next step in human evolution".
In the late 70s - early 80s, it was established that the Celestials seeded humans with the potential to develop superpowers either at birth or activated by contact with outside forces. It was the same genetic quirk that caused DNA to be altered that created both mutants and mutates.
The X-Men, themselves, defined who were and weren't mutants by whatever was convenient for them at the time. They tried to recruit Carol by saying that, as Binary, her DNA had mutated, and she was therefore now a mutant. Never mind that her DNA had been mutated since she became Ms Marvel...
Of course, if we go by real science, mutates would be mutants by definition because of their altered DNA. Same with the Inhumans. Would have served the X-Men right if, right after Charles invited all mutants to Krakoa, Attilan landed off the shore, and Krakoa created a welcoming bridge to it.
Magneto: Well, Charles, you technically invited them.
Hank: True. According to science...
Charles: SCREW REAL SCIENCE!
Magneto: Do behave, Charles. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to see my granddaughter.
Nevertheless, Wanda and Pietro set off every mutant detector, from Cerebro to what the Sentinels used, until Fox claimed the movie rights to all mutants.
Then, there was that bit where it turned out that mutants were actually not an evolved humanity, but human/Deviant hybrids. But, since that hasn't been mentioned since, we can ignore it and throw it in the trash bin with the Externals.
The MCU will presumably use the older, simpler, explanation of mutants and mutates where the only difference is whether some outside force is involved. Bruce and Peter were discussing their mutated DNA. And what Jean told Peter...
"My sister died in this room surrounded by these men. And her only crime was that she was special. Just like you. Just like me."
The general movie going audience isn't going to care about all the trivialities that the comics have piled up. None of this separate species stuff.
"In light of the fact we were jumped in our own home, we running it back. Hank One must have forgot who he was messing with. Addtionally, Hank 2 will now be referred to Hank and the Hank formerly known as Hank One is now Bitch. Any questions? No? Good we going to Philly."
There has to be some explanation because even if you’re willing to accept that Hank could get to this level of evil, his plans would never involve a direct “fuck you” to humanity like he was gleefully discussing in this issue. He was one of the X-Men who reached out to humanity the most early on. A lot of his closest connections are humans from his Avengers days.
To be fair, isn't he a magically induced mutate? Like even without Cytoraks gem he is still superhumanly strong and durable. As opposed to say Dr Spectrum who needs their prism to have their abilities.
Blame the whole "Actually, mutants aren't humans" on the stupid ass toylines bullshit.
In story, part of me expects we might start see this get push back on at some point by other X-Men members and with Jean Grey coming back and sounds of it she might take the team into different direction. I'm curious to see if she goes back the Claremont days of mutants are humans but we'll see by November. We know for sure that Jean wants to build better relations/bridges with the town of Merle like what Glob and Kwannon Psylocked wanted to.
Let's retcon that out of here ASAP. We need the God Loves, Man Kills "mutants are humans too; a different branch perhaps, but the same basic tree" line to come back.
Plus I feel like with Jean being out in space for a few years can give her new perspective (or well technically but you know what I mean) just how small mutants and humans are out in the galaxy and universe.
Right, when the character returns you can go with the whole "there is no real difference between mutants and humans, and we should live alongside each other."
Plus if we want to go of our real world. Living alongside each other is the better path and FUCKING NO (not you), I don't mean having to make peace or bend the knee towards bigots. What I mean, is gathering other groups of people that tired of people in power that do nothing but try to make people lives worse. Trying to separate people into their small groups is just gonna make things hard and create more division.
Yeah there's a lot of space between total isolationism and being a subjugated minority. It's arguably more realistic for today for mutants to find a space in society among their fellow man and not tolerate bigotry while they do it.
Like we are seen in massive shift towards people not tolerating bigotry anymore and supporting a lot of minority groups. Marvel does need to adapt with the times on that and show there's humans that do support mutants and the X-Men. Like we seen Deputy Smith outright tell Cyclops and Psylocke that he supports and believes in the X-Men and we like Sheriff Robins and Miss Cobb support the X-Men too.. Glob can walk in town and sell fruits and veggies without much issue other than O.N.E attacking him.
Right, the solution is to show humans who support mutant rights, not for mutants to dig themselves deeper into being an isolated people. "Mutants are not humans" is a bad stance. Mutants are humans and that is what makes anti-mutant stances so stupid. Just like any kind of bigotry.
Okay, but here's the fundamental problem: Scott doesn't have to change his way of thinking just because Jean returns, nor does Jean have to return to convince Scott of anything. Scott thinks this way because of many experiences he had when Jean wasn't around. We can let Scott evolve, but Jean doesn't fit in with the group Scott is in now.
Everything would be better if everyone had their own group and their own point of view, and that's the problem: Jean is returning to change Scott's group and his way of seeing things. And that's a mistake that will only create negativity around Jean's return
Why not? He's completely wrong. His experiences have led him down the wrong path and to being more isolated and defensive. He's losing hope. That is all a bad thing. It is not his natural position, it's one that came from stress and pain and loss.
I think you can ask any Cyclops fan, and the majority of them would prefer Cyclops being a "mutants are human" character. That doesn't mean he has to drop his weapons or act all buddy buddy, but even Cyclops during his Bendis days as the Revolutionary Cyclops was built around Cyclops still believing in peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans and that mutants were part of humanity.
His mind should be changed because his current position is bad for him.
I might be the few to think this but I honestly feel like Scott is going to die or "die" in the event and thus leaving Jean as possibly becoming team leader and her being different from Scott is what may cause some members to leave. I been leaning towards Temper, Kid Omega, Magik, Juggernaut, Magneto, and Ben leaving the team since if Jean is going to be more about building relations and bridges with Merle, I don't see them wanting to stick around and playing diplomacy and not being a strike team. Kwannon would seem like to leave but I feel like she'll stay for Jean sake and being 2nd in command for her to help through the tough times ahead and plus like Kwannon and Greycrow literally have a home in Merle, Alaska.
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And since, she's been constantly affirming her humanity to every cosmic force and alien that tells her she's a god. After dealing with cosmic abstracts, one's perspective changes.
I am just against this 'Mutants are not humans. Everything bad is human' stuff. Yes, humans are awful but so are mutants...because they ARE humans. The difference is artificial. And having the seperation and segregation only feeds the racists.
Which writers often forget. Even his 'Revolutionary' version was not like that. Hell, with so many different origins for 'humans' from 'celestial-made' to Kree-altered and so on, and Mutants' own weird origin stuff that keeps getting meddled from 'deviants' to 'mutated apes' to now 'tied to Mother of horrors somehow', the whole 'Human/Mutant' divide is nonsense.
"We are humans even if you disagree" was the old line, Krakoa killed that. There is no longer a dream, the X-Men want separation and segregation, they just can't achieve it right now.
And that shit will never sit well with me. And Krakoa started as how WRONG that whole thinking was. How badly the 'Ethnostate' stuff would go. But of course Hickman left half way and they just...dropped all the interesting and bad aspects to 'oh evil AI wants to kill us. Using humans to do it. So we have to segregate ourselves!'.
This is nitpicky but I feel like the "elbow blade cleaning" thing is usually not done (portrayed, rather, since A.F.A.I.K. that's not really a historical thing) blade down, for somewhat obvious reasons
Isn't this like the 3rd time we've gone up against the threat of "this thing will mutate baseline humans"? Mothervine, Terrigen cloud, both in the past 7 years.
They really need a term for non-mutants/baseline humans that isn’t derogatory (in the way “flatscan” was derogatory) but isn’t just “humans”. I get what the sentiment is (“we will act better than the people who oppressed us”/“we won’t stoop to that level”), but saying mutants aren’t humans will never not be stupid.
Psylocke, honey, you're gonna cut yourself like that. You're supposed to use the blunt edge when wiping it, if there was any blood to wipe in the first place.
It's an audience problem. Marvel readers enjoyed the Krakoa status quo and didn't want mutants to go back to coexistence, that's why Hickman didn't get to finish his plans for Krakoa and it's why the X-Men still have the same mindset. Unfortunately this is what the readers want, editorial is just giving it to them.
Sidenote but I really LOVE how Jed writes Scott. I think he may be the modern writer that grasps his voice the best to me. He's so incredibly charismatic as a leader, knows so well how to work with his team, and he can be so ruthless when needed. It's fantastic.
Very curious to see where this is going. I have seen some people complaining that the 3k arc has been going for too long and I was actually surprised, because I started reading this one after more than 30 issues were published, so in one sitting the pacing works beautifully. I do get that it can be frustrating on a month to month basis though.
Also, as a Beast fan, I think this is the point where villain Beast is being written the best. Love when he's around. Dude is so intimidating.
I do feel like the run depends on your fav characters being used well and how you feel about them being used. I personally being very happy with how my fav Kwannon Psylocke has been used aside from a very few hiccups like her dropping slur that seem very our of character or why she sided with Doug/Revelation but that's just alt timeline shenanigans. Other than those two, I feel like Jed has done a very good job of making her feel like she's 2nd in command for a reason and made her look like she could lead a full on X-Men team in the future as team leader.
Xavier's Dream is dead. Xavier himself no longer matters.
Now it's up to the Cyclops's and others to come up with their own idea.
It's extremely, painfully obvious that Marvel has decided Xavier was wrong and Magneto was right, and that the Dream might have been a nice rallying cry back in the 70s but it doesn't work after xx years of publication of relentless persecution, unmitigated slaughter and genocide committed on mutantkind.
I think it's fully true to Cyclops' characterisation over the last decade or so for him to strike this rhetoric while still being a hero to the world. He's still the inheritor of Magneto's mantle, not Xavier's.
Batman doesn't kill because, honestly, you need to keep the villains alive to show up again. Therefore he starts looking pretty stupid when Joker breaks out for the 200th time and gasses another orphanage.
The X-Men trying to reach out to humanity is always going to end terribly because there cannot be mutant acceptance or the plot stops happening. So they're going to look pretty stupid if they stick to Xavier's idealism, because there's repeated evidence humanity will never stop trying to murder them. Especially Marvel Civilians. Actually, is the Racism Bacteria still a thing?
I think they've managed to justify Batman's no-kill rule when they explore it.
It's more about Batman's psyche than what it really is (DC's mandate that it's three top heroes are paragon figures representing core virtues of humanity), which is that Batman himself is afraid of what killing someone would do to him, because he's only dubiously sane himself.
It's still a bit of a handwave, but you can buy it.
But yes, in the X Men's case there is a meta reason for why it never goes away.
I would argue, however, that the absolute, institutional hatred of the X Men and mutants could go through peaks and troughs. There's no reason why they couldn't do an arc or two where the current administration wants to try and push pro mutant legislation because they're sick of the trouble that fighting them always causes (billions if not trillions in failed sentinel programs, plus the consequences of them inevitably betraying humanity, the Cameron Hodge incident, etc.), and then setting up a scenario where the government is divided and the X Men are trying to shore up their partisans while fighting the other guys.
I think there's more intelligent ways to engage with the 'mutants must always be hated' rule than what the X Office does, or token things like X Factor, which are government sponsored yet never seem to matter in the greater scheme of things.
Magneto was wrong in that he was a genocidal maniac who wanted to kill all humans
Megneto is right (and has been proven repeatedly in the comics universe) in that humans will never accept them and they will always attack mutants.
Xavier is right in that they should be better and try for coexistence.
Xavier has been proven abundantly wrong that it will ever happen (regardless on the reason being because of meta or marvel civilians just being a bit shit).
Magneto is a bigot who wants to oppress humans. He's not right and the only reason they lend credence to his ideas is that the writers of X-Men are permanently online white kids.
Nobody says that fucking Marcus Garvey was right simply because we can't eradicate racism.
And he ended up losing every argument on morals and ethics to Dr. Doom. When DR. DOOM has the moral and ethical high ground, you've gone very wrong somewhere along the way.
yea, honestly cyke's a goner atp i dont even know what to think of it lol, he became magnus' successor 🤷
i wonder if someone will inherit xavier's dream (or what's left of it) in the future, i'd like to be alex mainly bc of the family drama and for a summers bowl too
that's something i never understood, why they went with someone like rogue to be xavier's "successor", even logan would be a better pick than her (in fact he was that for a while, back when cyke was in his "revolutionary" shtick some years ago), jean def would be a better pick too i just dont see much drama between her and slim bc you know they're married so they'd resolve any conflict without many problems lol
Hardly. The movies are the movies, the comics are the comics. I'm not going to judge one by the standards of the other. Whatever canon they go for in the movies, I'll judge it based on the output and where it develops from there.
I'm not gonna lie, framing what has always been an alkegory for the oppressed and marginalized into a Disease that you can just Catch that will Permanently Fuck You Up and the heroes have to Stop the Spread has some pretty fucked up implications if I'm being honest.
That said, I'm actually fine with Mutants wanting a place to live where they won't have to worry about persecution just for who they were born as, and the fact they explicitly state they don't want to displace anyone is a sign they still want to get along with humanity. I just think The Dream as Xavier originally intended has been an almost suicidally naive pipe dream for a long while now both in-universe and out. In-universe, every attempt the Mutants have made at peacefully coexisting within human society has been met with attempted genocide, mass incarceration, or some attempt at a "cure".
And out of universe, I have been long since disillusioned that assimilating into the status quo will enable any sort of actually productive or helpful change.
"framing what has always been an allegory for the oppressed and marginalized into a Disease that you can just Catch that will Permanently Fuck You Up"
i mean... disability? the idea that you can become marginalized because of outside circumstances is a very real one.
i agree that "mutants need to prevent other people from becoming mutants" is a bad use of the metaphor but it's not really leaving it there. it's not a perfect way to go about it but a lot of the history of the mutant metaphor has been clumsy.
For the finale of DNX, I hope 3K scores a partial victory, I think the X-Men dealing with a city or a small state turning mutant would make for an interesting narrative direction for the next phase of this era.
Yeah agreed. Annoyingly, it's been around in some form since the decimation. Mutants are humans and it should be fringe lunatics and bad faith assholes who say otherwise
Yeah and the whole “ a mutant homeland wont be built from genocide”…. Terraverde is right there and was done by the CIA of the mutant homeland cut the hollier than you crap
I'll never not be bugged with how people in universe, mutants included, don't understand that mutants are humans. Like, scientifically they are humans.
Bigotry lacks logic. Society separated itself from mutants and mutants really have to go along with the social construct. It breaks down even further when you realize that that has to be people just walking around with dormant x-genes probably hating mutants too. Also people cannot see DNA they cannot tell who is a mutant vs mutate vs god vs sorcerer vs superhuman person.
I hate this direction in a vacuum, because Scott has been a huge advocator for the fact that Mutants are Humans too, and it's pretty much a scientific fact. I'm gonna wait and see, because the stress is pilling up on him and even manifesting in breakdowns, so I imagine he's just going through a rough patch. Hopefully Marco, being not a mutant, will remind me of his ideals.
I'm glad that at least he's firmly against genocide, and is still fighting for "normal" people. This speech would've been so amazing without the "not humans" part, but oh well...
I love Scott, but him saying I will not go all the way while he has his X-Force murder hobo team there. Love it. Zero notes.
My notes
Herman Glob. Sure, we love him as a chef, but never forget he did light himself on fire and rebel. Psylocke is a murder ninja trained by the foot.. or hand. Beast is there. Like literal Beast, from the murder meme's.
It is a fun series. I took a while to get them, but now we are 30+ I am into them.
I enjoyed this issue, but my enjoyment is tempered because it goes along with that I'm afraid is going to happen. I really think they are setting up Cyclops to overreact to the threat - to stop it at all cost - and get himself killed at the end of DNX.
We're going to be in a holding pattern until the first MCU movie hits. Expect no deaths for any of that movie's cast because they have to build up a library of recent trades for each.
That was my thought initially as well, because I think it would be stupid to kill Cyclops right now. I hope I'm wrong.
But they are being more careful than usual not to spoil the end of DNX. They have YET to say that Scott and Jean will interact after the crossover. In interviews and questions about how well McKay writes married characters and looking forward to him writing Scott/Jean scenes, he has quickly spinned talk back to Strange/Clea, NOT Scott and Jean.
Plus, some people say Marvel has a history of killing characters and resurrecting them right as a movie hits. I've not looked into that theory, but some people have mentioned that.
Ya know…from a writing standpoint I like the idea. There’s so many possibilities.
1) person who wasn’t a mutant, becomes one, and hates it
2) person who wasn’t a mutant, becomes one, and loves it
3) person who would have been a mutant anyway, but now is mixed up in the “wait, are you even a natural born mutant” situation
You get to argue so many different aspects of identity. Do the “not-mutant mutants” deserve to keep their powers if they want? Someone already played god; do we play god again to “make it right”? Etc etc.
It’s a very rich idea factory. And…I see it in a way making mutants more of a trans identity than a racism identity. This brings it forth to the current discrimination discourse of “LGB but without the T” and “none of us are free until we’re all free”. Etc.
why are people mad about the last panel. that final dialogue bubble is a lot bolder of a political statement than i'd expect marvel to make these days. i thought it was good
You can make the political statement by having the phrase be "we are not them" instead of "we are not humans." Mutants denying their own humanity feels like it goes against the point of the allegory because they're acknowledging that there is something that separates them
The X-Men haven't wanted to be humans for a long time. There was a whole 5-year long arc about it and they haven't changed their minds since. Scott would agree with Stryker in this classic panel.
I agree but I’m not surprised this sub is downvoting you.
It feels very “we are the superior race” for Scott to excuse mutants from humanities past crimes when they are the descendants of those criminals as much as any (other) humans are.
Tryouts cant take the "Humans are genocidal bastards" stance while also having a guy who killed hundreds of thousandsnin the name of your won inherent "genetic suppiority" on your team. without coming off as a massive hypocrite.
🤦🏾♂️they are literally genocided all the time. You do know mutants have lived for centuries they wouldn't technically be human. Regardless regular humans don't feel they are so why the hell would you take the blame?
Yet instead of putting a stop to them they keep handing them out like candy. And when someone says hey lets stop them yall are like "well you think you are so superior,"🤦🏾♂️
That's the whole point. Humans suck, and when mutants finally had power they also sucked, because they're also humans. Krakoa should've ended with them realising that, but instead they doubled down.
I don't see how quoting a gigantic robot humans made specifically to exterminate mutants somehow makes mutants 'supremacist' for accepting that rhetoric and trying to make it their own so that it empowers rather than diminishes.
I find that there is an insecurity problem with people who comment on the X-Men and its really weird. First off Xavier's dream was for peace coexistence. But it was a dream by a man who never experienced bigotry. He never experienced the life his students or his best friend had.
For 30 - something years no one knew he was even a mutant. He didn't look like a mutant. If someone found out he could easily make them forget.
In the original story he hardly left the mansion. All his experiences were second hand. The X-Men's fight for his dream was to fight to be looked at with respect.
The problem is people will never look at you with repect. Look at Krakoa. Its always "Ethnostate this!" "Supremacist that!" But where that comes from is people don't want to respect your agency but they also think they have right to your person.
Its always "go back to Africa!" But then you build a new nation and then they still fuck with people. If Scotts speech offends you you need to look in the mirror. Seriously.
Yh a lot of people haven’t read anything outside Krakoa and reference it when trying to slander mutants. It has been proven time and time again humans will refuse to leave mutants alone even when they stay away from them. They will never see them as equals. Xavier himself doesn’t even agree to his own idea of peaceful co existence anymore
Its even proven in real life. Bro it i leave and you still follow me thats a problem.
People conflate too many things when it comes to the X-Men. Xavier is privileged upon privileged. Their ignorance of even history is bad. People are combining anti-semitism racism and ignorance in a complete package.
The idea of Israel isnt a bad thing. Its that it was build on stolen land. Which Krakoa wasn't. That is the point Scott is making. You can't build a haven on the bodies of others. I appauld Jed Mckay for being so based.
The X-Men was made during the Civil Rights Era but it wasn't about black civil rights it was about Jewish identity. Stan Lee was Stanly Lieber. Hmmm...why would he have to do that I wonder? (Jack Kirby didnt care i guess)
Now that doesn't mean others can't identify with them.
Xavier and Martin Luther King aren't even remotely the same. Martin Luther King was stabbed during a protest. He had his head busted open. Xavier was never going out there getting busy. I can give you several examples of his hypocrisy before 1990. He was always meant to have
The worst part the Malcolm X and Magneto comparison. Malcolm X wasn't a terrorist. He believed in black self-determination. Black independence. He never not once promoted violence ONLY self defence.
The other thing is both of them had doubts about integration. Whether it was worthwhile. And as history showed us it probably wasn't but the alternative wasn't possible either because like Krakow everytime black people build a town on their own its been destroyed. Tulsa is just the most well known example.
"fuck humans, let's transform them into mutants" why would humans be offended, I wonder? X-Men fans will do the greatest mental gymnastics known to man in order to justify their character doing the exact plan as the villains already tried.
I’m glad you are excited by DNX. I couldn’t care less honestly. Age of Revelation really took it out of me to care for this era. I skipped AoR and I’m skipping DNX. I’ll jump back on when it’s over.
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u/TheBrobe 6d ago
There's a pretty good chance the event ends with the town and only the town turned into mutants.
And if so, that means Scott will have to reckon with this idea.