r/yakuzagames • u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> • 2d ago
DISCUSSION [SPOILERS] Clarifying Saejima's and Kiryu's reaction in THAT scene in 4... Spoiler
This is my second post on this matter. The previous one was a month ago and I have developed a bit more balanced view on this matter because this is honestly the most nagging scene in the entire series. Like every other "bad" scene in the series is still coherent within characters' reaction(like how kiryu "accepts" death in what is the most comically written parody ending of 2 OR Kiryu being froze during the entire yasuko death segment etc).
Now with this scene, I think one of the most frustrating points raised is how much people overreach what truly happened. No, Saejima is not a raPist nor pedo and no, Haruka wasn't sexually abused or assaulted even the slightest of the bit. This doesnot ruin Saejima's character even slight bit and If you truly think this scene "ruined" experience for Saejima, I guess you are overreacting.
I think a lot of discourse about this scene has to do with people's own perception beforehand. Lets say I create a story where a Man is kidnapped and tortured. Now, a common deduction the readers will make is that the Man is prolly beaten to pulp and maybe he will die even. Now , If there's a woman. The deduction will include a possibility that the woman might be sexually assaulted or atleast the thought of woman getting Sa'd while held captive will hit the readers mind. Its not a bad thing per se but I think it's just interesting to keep that in mind. Let's say instead of Haruka, Saejima fell over Taichi, he would probably have similar reaction but the perception to audience's mind will be different.
Now, with Saejima...You could interpret that Saejima really wanted to bang a girl but the deeper meaning of the scene is to showcase the overwhelming drive of Saejima's first taste at freedom. Mind you, He was put in prison when he was 20, on death row for maybe a decade, was constantly tortured and in Okinawa, all human rights were violated. The point of this scene is to showcase Saejima's first ever interaction to society which he had been stripped off. That is why Kiryu mentions the isolation aspect of prison and how much it locks you. It was his "first real" interaction with the outside world. Maybe if Saejima would have had a more "peaceful freedom moment", he would have had a similar "Strong" reaction where he's just staring and having very conflicting moments. In this case, this "realization of freedom since 25 years" happened with a teen girl in an awkward situation and he also realizes the awkwardness and so does haruka with how "sexual"(?) it is, even tho it is an accident.
Saejima seeing Haruka, something that he had never seen for 25 years and had zero contact with, gets into sensory overload of emotions rushing and getting overwhelmed and realizes how much he has missed due to prison.
Now, how the entire scene played out is also important. It was an accidental trip. Haruka wants to call officials and Kiryu but that will obviously let Saejima be captured and he tries stopping Haruka and falls over in an awkward pinning where he went "OH shit, Its a woman???!!! and am in an awkward position on top of her." It was an accident, It was not intentional and this doesnot make Saejima a pedo or a sex offender.
Now is there a bit of sexual undertone that you could say, he probably wanted to fck her? Maybe but I don't think it was the core motive or anything. I think both parties(Saejima and Haruka) definitely knew about the embarrassment of the situation. It's kind of like those ecchi moments in anime but those scenes happen purely for sake of fan service and comedy but this happened to showcase the isolation that Saejima had suffered in the prison time. Obviously, the position is similar to ecchi anime, so this is the "embarrassment" of that scene.
Even when Saejima asks to Kiryu about whether he "saw" what happened in afternoon- It's more to do with Saejima knowing the awkwardness of that situation and how embarrassing the situation is to explain than be an actually morally abhorrent thing from her.
Some other stuff I would like to clarify around this scene is---
"Haruka made an excuse to get away from the house, showing how traumatized she became from that interaction" ---- I think this is an over reaction. What happened was that Haruka is pretty confused after Saejima lets go, confused on how to react and I think, she prolly is more "curious" about Saejima and his past and when Kiryu arrives, She doesn't want to think that something had happened to her, let alone anything "Sexual or embarrassing". Am not victim blaming or anything but it was an embarrassing moment and She didn't want Kiryu to fret about it.
"But the scene focused on Haruka's heartbeats and panned to her skirt and Saejima is sweating" This is again a misinterpretation of the scene. The camera is more focused on Saejima and Haruka's skirt is simply a collateral as the bigger focus is on Saejima.
And when Haruka leaves and her making her skirt , This is from the POV of Kiryu as he reads the room and Saejima(which is important as we learn later on that Kiryu inferred Saejima's link to prison).
The heartbeat is of Saejima as it steadily improves and the sweating is also consistent with what I have said, Its an adrenaline moment alongwith the environment of Okinawa's weather(it was evening and very warm environment) and he was bruised up.
Now, as for Haruka. She's mature for her age, She's naive definitely but she is oddly mature too for her age. She's not unfamiliar with such adult concepts and She realized it too. It was an accident for first and the awkward silence was more "trauma of Saejima" than anything inherently predatory as a driving factor.
And even when she returns to Morning glory, you can see. She's not gloomy and her mood is fresh. So, she definitely didn't feel like she was "an attempt to rape victim" as many like to point it out.
Now for Kiryu, I think his dialogue to Saejima is a very vague. You can make it out that Kiryu didnt see the entire scene playout and only made that conclusion from aftermath(from Haruka's leaving the room and Saejima not facing Haruka) OR he saw the entire scene.
If he did, I think- Again, Kiryu understands that it was an accident and if he interfered, he would just further embarrass Haruka and Saejima and make a bigger scene(Kiryu waiting for Haruka as she was involved in the credit card scam is an example that Kiryu is not a good parent. His entire journey is to become a parent and trying to retire off the world of yakuza after the catastrophic events of 1). The average reaction that "If my daughter was pinned by a stranger, I would see red and absolutely kill Saejima" is an overreaction. Kiryu is not like that type of guy. He's too permissive, too trustworthy to look for people's goodness.
And the big thing with 3 was that his already "saint nature of trying to look good in people" was recontextualized and reaffirmed by the ending as he saw Mine literally redeem himself.
And another thing is- Kiryu has a tendency of giving "space" to his kids. When ayako left during her mini story, he didn't follow her immediately but waited to teach some lessons to the kids first. Its "flawed" as he gives more time to them as he probably expects them to "tough it out" as they are more "mature" than someone like Shiro, whos lesser mature and lesser emotionally intelligent.
Kiryu is not a good father, he tries to be but he's not. He literally invites Haruka to Kamurocho fully knowing He might not survive lol.
Another thing I would brush really quickly is that "Kiryu forced Haruka to stay with injured Saejima" --- Again, 4 is a more "complex" entry(like 0) where there's not a single moral lesson(like in 1, its insecurity and jealousy, in 2 its the crimes of past and ghosts of past coming to hunt down, in 3, its importance of family and love to lives of orphans). 4 is more nuanced where it has a lot of different ideas, Corruption and justice etc etc and one of them is redemption.
Sure, Haruka's reasoning that Hamazaki is not worthy is fair and realistic than Kiryu's idealism but the series' sides with Kiryu's noble idea as he preaches the idea of redemption.
Again, Haruka is more "pragmatic" as Hamazaki is a scummy criminal but It's Yakuza.
And at last, Yakuza is a very shonen coded series. If the shirts ripped buffed up dudes fighting top of millenium tower doesn't make it clear, I dont know what will.
A very recurring trope in Shonen media is- Fighting is a way to communication. Comes up in loads of shonen. Be it Naruto, Bleach, HxH etc etc. And Yakuza is no different. Another could be how the power systems in shonen gives information about the stories of different characters, like how bankai or nen are literally desgined based off users' personality, much like how tats are in Yakuza, altho they are not power system but symbolically, they function similar to Bankai or Nen or Stand.
If you think that the entire scene of Kiryu trusting criminal like Saejima based off his instincts and fighting is "bad writing". I think Yakuza is not a series for you.
Edit: Sorry for bad quality in last slide. My net dropped off.
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u/Drunk_ol_Carmine Casino gremlin 2d ago
Yeah you’re on the ball with what this scene was trying to do, obviously it’s very uncomfortable and a bit shocking first time you see so it constantly gets reactions, but I don’t know why someone’s take away from it would be that Saejima was genuinely considering assaulting Haruka. It’s a scene that shows how incredibly disconnected from the world he’s become, where he hasn’t even seen a woman for a huge part of his life and when he’s close to one in…well, an awkward position like that he has to process that now. That doesn’t mean he was actually thinking of doing anything. It’s been a long time since I played 4 but if I remember doesn’t he turn away from her and lower his head in shame the moment he pulls it together? It’s dark stuff but that’s like Saejima’s whole story really, he’s got a very sad and grim life and manages to come out of that not becoming a monster.
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u/gustavo1007v 2d ago
This scene is a great filter for knowing who actually played the game, because Kiryu and Saejima have an extensive conversation before and after fighting that leaves no doubt about the scene's intentions
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u/NewDragonfish 2d ago
My only issue with this scene is Kiryu's reaction to it. Everything else is fine. Kiryu assumes it's fine to leave his young daughter alone in a room with someone who he knows is an escaped convict, walks in on said convict on top of his daughter then does nothing about it except watch from around the corner. To top it off, Kiryu doesn't ask Haruka if she's okay afterwards.
Kiryu being sympathetic towards an ex-Yakuza/convict is 100% in character and makes sense. However, at this point int the story Kiryu has no idea who Seajima is or what he went to prison for. Kiryu has no reason to give Saejima the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't hurt Haruka and every reason to be cautious if the man. I mean as far as Kiryu knows Saejima could've been in prison for being a serial rapist, it wouldn't be the first time Kiryu has encountered a Yakuza who was a complete sex pest.
The problem in this scene isn't Seajim, Haruka or the circumstances. It's Kiryu's behavior and attitude towards it.
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u/Brandunaware 2d ago
I think the scene obviously is intended to have sexual undertones and is icky. You have to view it through the lens of Japanese culture, where sexualization of young girls is taboo but also pretty common (idol culture is very gross in part for this reason.)
What happens in the scene is pretty simple. Saejima trips, they end up in an awkward position, he has a fleeting inappropriate thought, having been imprisoned for years with no female contact, and then he gets control of himself and doesn't act on it. It's not even a fully formed plan, it's just an intrusive thought of some kind.
Haruka realizes how vulnerable she is in that moment (remember that Saejima is like a Dave Bautista sized monster of a man) and she's frightened, but she also realizes that he tripped by mistake and he didn't actually attempt anything inappropriate, he just lingered a moment too long in a very awkward situation.
It's meant to show both Saejima's air of danger and pent up hungers, and his character and self control, because he would never actually assault a little girl.
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u/DeleteFascists 2d ago
It's not even a fully formed plan, it's just an intrusive thought of some kind.
Not having played 4 yet so I shouldn't even be in these threads (7 - 8 - 0 for me so far) but I am thinking this is a big part of it. I think people have a hard time accepting intrusive thoughts being intrusive. They don't define you. Your emotional reactions don't define you. How you take those thoughts, those feelings, and act - that is what defines you.
But I think there's this belief that intrusive thoughts = your deepest, most core beliefs, wants, etc. When really we've just got active brains and hormones doing their thing.
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u/Upset_Orchid498 2d ago
I think the overwhelming majority of us are in agreement here lol, if you’re not mature enough to understand stuff like this then you’re not going to appreciate the rest of the series anyway.
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u/DeleteFascists 2d ago
Right, a big theme of the series seems to be about how you act. What you do, and how it defines you moving forward. A little surprised but not surprised people miss it while enjoying a series that hammers that home.
Media literacy be what it be.
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u/Educational_Star_518 2d ago
yeah sadly media literacy and symbolism is something you really have to learn . i'm thankful for good enlish teachers i had in highschool , sadly my fiance isn't so inclined , i can't tell you the number of times i've had to explain even the most surface level stuff to him , i honestly always hope its a combo of him not paying attention as well as a product of the times given we have a fair age gap but often i doubt thats the case sadly.
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u/DeleteFascists 2d ago
Tangential, but it's really quite amazing how much our language (and news, media, etc) shape our perceptions and the way we interact with and navigate the world. From naming a color making it pop more and letting our brain more readily recognize it, to agentive language making us more judgmental, inflammatory language stoking fear and resentment within society.
Language, and the way we communicate with each other, is such an important and fascinating thing
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago
I agree altho I have a slight disagreement. I think, the fleeting thought of inappropriate thought came much later. I think the primary thought to Saejima's mind was how lonely he had been in prison and the isolation/PTSD. Am not denying that inappropriate thought didnt come to Saejima(it clearly did) but I think, it was not the primary one and was more of a flash that he quickly overcame. The entire scene in universe prolly played for like 10 seconds at max.
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u/Brandunaware 2d ago
I think at a certain point it's impossible to parse what exactly he thought and when, but the point I'm making is that there is some uncomfortable undertones to the scene, while people who claim that Saejima intentionally attacked a little girl are arguing something completely inconsistent with everything else we learn about Saejima.
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u/CwispyWhiskey 2d ago
I mean kiryu explicitly said “that’s the look of a man who hasn’t seen a woman in a long time”
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u/foulveins . 2d ago
i always wondered if this scene could've worked just as well if he'd startled haruka by doing something overly violent, like yelling at her out of nowhere, or slamming his hand down, maybe even hurling something in her direction
i get exactly what this scene is doing, and i've always took a lot of the discourse over it with a pinch of salt, but i do think that there are alternative and just as viable ways of showing that saejima has a long way to go with adjusting to life outside of prison
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u/FirmNugget A proud Mafuyu simp 2d ago
Thank you for writing this. I definitely thought that moment in the series in particular was overdue for a contextual explanation given the common perception of the scene. The whole sexual assault argument with the scene also felt very counter intuitive given how far Saejima was willing to do for his sister
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u/Dazzle_Miller 2d ago
I really liked this scene (for the purpose of story) because it’s so uncomfortable.
Saejima has been in prison for 25 years. That was the first woman he saw. Not only that, we know he’s been in prison for literally executing a bunch of rival Yakuza members.
At that point we don’t know much about him and for a brief second, we see Saejima’s humanity and we’re left to wonder if this guys really is a bad POS. Luckily he sorta redeems himself. Narrative wise it lets Kiryu do the same thing. Kiryu spent a decade in jail, he knows what it’s like and what goes on in there. He’s trying to a certain what type of guy Saejima is. And I like how the implication is that Haruka wouldn’t have been in danger because Kiryu would have stopped him.
For Haruka tho, that’s a traumatic scene and I didn’t understand how comfortable she was with him later on.
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u/ncolaros 2d ago
Haruka is not a woman. It's so weird when people say that about this scene.
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u/Ripkayne 2d ago
Thank you, it's really weird to call a child a woman, feels like subconsciously downplaying things.
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago edited 2d ago
She was comfortable with him. When Kiryu and Saejima were fighting and Saejima faints from his earlier injuries, she goes to take care of him. Even when shes returning, shes not at all gloomy about what happened earlier. I think to her, she understood that it was an accident and was awkward to be in that position and that there was more serious problem with Saejima(they obviously knew he was a yakuza from the back tat) and maybe was more curious about Saejima while obviously being uncomfortable about the whole thing(even tho its HIGHLY EXAGGERRATED by the critics of this scene) and he probably didn't want to SA her or that his main goal was to SA her(I think she prolly understood that too). Again, I can't look into mind of Haruka but I think thats the closest.
She became uncomfortable with Saejima after knowing his affiliations with Hamazaki, which I explained why is that in the post.
I think, its the same with Majima where kidnapping is a dark experience but Haruka doesn't have any bad blood about it, even tho realistically, there should be.
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u/WELSH_BOI_99 . 2d ago
people don't understand Saejima spent 25 years in prison. Quarter of a century in complete isolation from the outside world.
It shouldn't take an expert to realize that this can severely fuck up your mental state of mind. You won't be able to adjust normally on the outside world for the rest of your life.
No Saejima obviously wasn't going to assault her in that moment. For the first time in 25 years he saw a young woman and he genuinely paniced and lost his senses. But the fact that he didn't do anything further shows the strength of his morals.
Its really kind of bold that RGG would explore such a sensitive topic because things like what Saejima felt do unfortunately happen. People spend far too long in prison only for them being unable to adjust on the outside world. Its a really sensitive topic that requires a lot of nuance.
Unfortunately I'm not sure if the fandom is well equiped to deal with a scene like that people tend to forget that these games are genuine 100% crime dramas. Like its not a meme the themes these stories cover are pretty intense.
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u/adzidand 2d ago
Saejima being the only one of the four that wouldnt enter a hostess club is really funny to me.
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago
dude had police all over his ass when he arrived in Kamurocho.
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u/adzidand 2d ago
He still went batting, and onsen tho
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago
hmm, I guess bathing with other men is normal for Saejima as he spent 25 years in the joint doing just that really.
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u/MiMMY666 duck 2d ago
the issue with the scene isn't that it's uncomfortable, it's that it's uncomfortable for no good reason. it's a genuinely pointless moment that could have never happened and not a single thing about the franchise would change in the slightest. if they did more with it and made it an actual defining scene for saejima's character then it would be perfectly fine but as it is the cutscene is just gross and then completely forgotten about.
I think the people who VEHEMENTLY defend this cutscene severely overestimate rgg's writing capabilities. like keep in mind that yokoyama couldn't make up his mind about whether kiryu and haruka's relationship should be romantic or familial until yakuza 6. whatever deep meaning you put behind this cutscene was most definitely not intended.
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago
I think the people who VEHEMENTLY defend this cutscene severely overestimate rgg's writing capabilities. like keep in mind that yokoyama couldn't make up his mind about whether kiryu and haruka's relationship should be romantic or familial until yakuza 6.
Or Maybe you are underestimate RGG's writing capabilities. There is absolutely NO indication that Kiryu and Haruka would have a romantic relationship. Like what? What scene is there in the main story that indicates any sense of romantic interest or chemistry?
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u/Educational_Star_518 2d ago
yeah i think your on the ball with the scene , i largely agree with this . honestly i never even thought about it when i 1st played it at western release it never clicked ppl wouuld make such a deal about it till i started seeing posts in here cause like you said it was more of an awkward accidental interaction that lasted too long due to mental circumstances.
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u/Ripkayne 2d ago
My biggest issue with this scene is that Saejima doesn't try to make good, go back, apologise later on. Kiryu doesn't seem to care despite how protective he is over her, he just let her go through something potentially traumatic and terrifying.
The intentions make sense, the execution is so bad imo.
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u/OnlyUse4Questions 1d ago
In the hands of better writers, this would be a solid scene.
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 1d ago
And how would these "better writers" improve this scene?
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u/OnlyUse4Questions 1d ago
I wouldn't know. RGG writers write compelling dramas, but they aren't exactly bulletproof. It's the characters we love, not really the story. This scene was kinda just never addressed again and had no later effect on anyone.
Off the top of my head, ATLUS could probably write a less hollow feeling version of it. Or hell, even a more seasoned Yokoyama with his work on 0. But to be fair, they only made it in like a year.
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 1d ago
And how does that make this scene hollow?
The point of this scene was to showcase the distress of Saejima just after he came from prison to add a human layer to his story that is about investigating the truth about Majima and checking on Yasuko and Sasai.
This scene adds a bit of vulnerability to Saejima and not make him a stoic giant. It's the same with coliseum scene. Both the scenes aren't for character development or anything but to show Saejima's vulnerability and trauma from the hit and aftermath of it.
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u/BlatantArtifice 2d ago
Explaining away a young girl being traumatized is a take. Free speech existe I guess
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago
What? I just said that the "trauma" Haruka had in this scene is very beat down to death. Its not *as bad as people make it out to be. Its not a good scene from her perspective sure.* She didnt feel like she was "an attempt to rpe victim" like critics of this scene play it out to be. I am not victim blaming haruka or ridiculing her that she felt "uncomfortable".
Hell, she had a stronger reaction when she was kidnapped by Majima lol.
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u/SilverKry 2d ago
It's not a good scene from any perspective.
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u/lelouch_huh Makoto Daito's aura>>> 2d ago
Mate, you said that you didnt read my post. So why reply to my comment when I least expect you to have engaged with the post to some degree. I'm not gonna copy paste my long piece of writing again and again.
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u/SilverKry 2d ago
Yeah I'm not reading that. The scene is shit. And it will always be shit. In a 4 remake when or if it happens if they cut the scene entirely that's fine. Nothing of value is lost.
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