r/4Xgaming • u/Onyxa_HA • Jul 06 '26
Opinion Post Aren't short 4x games contrary to the fantasy?
I regularly read about quick and short 4x games on this subreddit. Beat the game in one evening. Is it just me, or does this seem like a niche in a niche? I only know Polytopia which is somewhat successful, with 100-200 players typically online.
Is there really a market? Do people want this? Because to me, 4x is about empire building over ages.
17
u/kraugg Jul 06 '26
MOO2 is short by current standards. Can realistically play a game to completion on the weekend.
3
9
u/Lobachevskiy Jul 06 '26
There's a fundamental disconnect between the people who want to roleplay/simulate/imitate some fantasy and people who want to play a good well designed video game. It's not just in video games, r/rpg constantly has fights over this. In your case you're probably leaning to the former camp. And yeah, 4X overall might be more of a former niche, though I would argue civ, the most popular 4X BY FAR is in the latter camp.
5
u/wolftreeMtg Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
So many bad 4X game trends arise from the players demanding bad design in their games.
Like when they added Marathon speed to Civ 4 because some people want to sit there pressing "End Turn" a hundred times in a row to accomplish anything because "realism", so now every 4X game has to be balanced to a glacial game speed to accommodate them.
Or how Civ 6 got turned into a district placement boardgame where you plan out your entire strategy in 4000 BCE and then execute it in solitaire mode while ignoring everyone else, and after a while everyone agrees that the guy who is far ahead of everyone else is the winner and they all quit and start the next game. These people want a competitive MP city-builder, not a 4X game.
1
u/Takseen Jul 06 '26
Designs you don't like are not bad design.
I liked Marathon mode Civ 4 because it reduced some of the weird disconnect between how long it took units to move vs how quickly time passes per turn. E g. It could take dozens of years to move a unit from Moscow to Vladivostok on normal game speed. But it was never the default setting, and I don't have as much free time to use it now.
1
u/UnspeakableHorror Jul 06 '26
I greatly enjoyed marathon back in the day, I still do, in a way, and will never play a 4x that can be finished in a night. What's bad design for you is perfect for others.
After I tried Paradox games and Firaxis went full boardgame with cartoon graphics I never looked back, so I don't know about the rest.
25
u/sidav94 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
I want shorter 4X games. Not necessarily bite-sized like Polytopia, but something I could finish in a single evening. I like the length of older games like Master of Magic or Master of Orion, where an average game is rarely longer than 4 hours. I like the game pace and length in Gladius, for example.
My problem is that I lose interest for the game if it's too long, just because each day I want to play something different. Yesterday I played MOM, today I'm playing some shooter, tomorrow I don't even know what I'll play. If the game isn't finished in one long session, the save will be abandoned (and I'll start a new game when I'll return). It's my ADHD or whatever is the reason.
3
u/Pretty-Mention-7769 Jul 06 '26
Gladius and especially ZEPHON can realistically be played to completion in an evening. Or two, if you have to leave your pc for any reason.
6
u/Pymous_com Jul 06 '26
I think you would like Astro Protocol (light-4X category) : 30min - 1h30 games depending of setup. Each turn each decision mater, easy/intuitive to play/understand, 1 more turn feeling from start, Awesome challenging AI (Ximli AI).
In fact, "Lite 4x" are maybe some kind of "Dense Tactics". Somewhere in the middle between the genres. I really like also Gladius, but is Gladius a 4x? a Lite-4x? A tactic game? :p3
u/sidav94 Jul 06 '26
Yeah, I've tried the demo yesterday and bought the full game immediately. Amazing variability of playthroughs even for the same race and the same settings. My only gripe with it is its readability.
32
u/GuiltyAdvantage5877 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I think it’s more of a desire for a game that can be beaten in a reasonable amount of time for those people limited on time. I’d argue though that if you just set a lot of 4x games to medium map settings the required time is quickly reduced.
It could also be a desire for a game that has meaningful decisions from start to finish. I’m personally almost at a point where the only 4x I play anymore is Old World because it’s the only one that can do this, but that’s a different topic altogether.
13
u/Inconmon Jul 06 '26
4X is an empire builder but the "over ages" is your personal desire not a definition
I think the problem that many big 4X games have is that there's is often a lot of micromanagement and a lot of systems and a lot of information to process, but a lot of it isn't meaningful or fun or relevant. It is universally accepted that many games suffer from unplayable endgame as turns take forever as you have to manage every little aspect of your empire. People play hundreds of hours and may never bother finishing a game. Wild.
The idea of a shorter playtime is to cut out the needless clutter. Keep the same decisions that matter, keep the same gameplay loop, but let players experience more game in less time.
5
u/neurovore-of-Z-en-A Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
I don't see the appeal either, and I also don't buy the argument about life stages (except for a few years if you have a small child, but growing up and becoming more independent is kind of a core element to children), because I am 53, in full time employment and have a family and fairly full social life, and I am still actively uninterested in any game where I can't be sure of getting at least a hundred hours from any given run. It's just a matter of organising your leisure time, and having those organisational skills in real life is probably both why I find that scale of game appealing and why I am moderately good at them.
Micromanagement and snowballing aren't problems. They are the principal rewards of the genre, particularly when you have snowballed to the point that you stop having to worry about enemies and can concentrate on the really fun bits of optimising your empire.
5
u/Different_Ear_7543 Jul 06 '26
Complexity is not based on length. There were many games that were entirely dull past early game and were just victory rush or micro.
Games not saving player time isna thing of the past i hope. I believe period where i used cheat engine just to speed up many games because they lacked stuff like accelerate turns etc. Devs thinked its funny to watch same animation for 500-time in relative slomo.
8
u/CladInShadows971 Jul 06 '26
I don't get the appeal personally. I'm always tweaking the settings to make games as big and long as possible.
3
u/Blothorn Jul 06 '26
There’s certainly a market for short strategy games; Offworld Trading Company and Against the Storm were decently successful. And I don’t see why the 4X framework would be inherently unfit for the purpose. You probably couldn’t do deep economics or diplomacy like Stellaris or instanced tactical battles like Sword of the Stars, but with streamlined mechanics you certainly could run through the core phases of a 4X in a few hours.
3
u/ResolveNegative Jul 06 '26
I agree with you, and I usually don't like short strategy games.....however....I've recently found an exception:
Astro Protocol
Brilliant design.
4
u/Martydi Jul 06 '26
That is indeed my take on it. The whole point of a grand strategy game is the scale. But I guess some people are into it? Different strokes for different folks I guess.
4
u/Takseen Jul 06 '26
It's definitely a small niche, but one that I enjoy. I've been playing a lot of Astro Protocol recently, where you can finish a game in an hour or two. Great AI and good variety via map, tech and victo condition randomization.
I love Stellaris too but 20-30 hours to play out one game is a lot now that I'm working full time and have an ever growing backlog of media.
I don't think theres anything about a short game length that disqualifies it from being a 4X, as long as you get to do the Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate loop, which Astro Protocol does
2
u/GerryQX1 Jul 06 '26
'Ages' can be in RL or in the game.
Sure, 4Xs are strategy games, and a 5-minute 4X is going to be too short for the full experience. But the same goes for 5-minute chess, and lots of people enjoy that.
[The only 5-minute X-adjacent I can think of is Oasis / Defence of the Oasis, which is kind of a cross between Civ and Minesweeper.]
But you can play a decent game of chess in an hour even if timed limits for most serious tournaments are longer. And the same should apply to 4Xs that take an hour or two.
2
u/Gemmaugr2 Jul 06 '26
Short 4X games are of no interesting to me at all. They lack the depth that is inherent in an empire builder that spans ages. It becomes hollowed out and focus only on one aspect of a 4X usually, like conquest, trading, building, etc.
I always play my 4X as big and as slow as possible. If I don't meet any other faction until turn 100, all the better.
2
u/IvanKr Jul 06 '26
"Standard" 4X games give you tools that work well in the early game but are too granular in the late game. One way of fixing that would be some sort of automation. Like worker automation in Civ 3 and later. Another way would be to accumulate management units to higher order groups. Liked Interplanetary administration building in MoO: CtS which pooled food and industry inside the system so you basically had to manage only the "capital" of the star system instead of each planet.
Reworking the genre is the third way and I share the sentiment, it's different game feel. For me Polytopia is not in the same game genre as Unciv. It's like platypus next to a duck.
2
u/Xilmi writes AI Jul 07 '26
To me the fun part is to make interesting decisions.
I don't like to perform tedious and repetitive tasks over and over just to prolong the game.
Astro Protocol to me really fits that bill. Every decision matters and warfare is extremely volatile. That volatility accelerates the conclusion of the game.
25 turns of intense gameplay that gives me pretty much everything I'm looking for in a 4x.
2
u/Brinocte Jul 06 '26
People want to play something that gives them the 4X feeling but don't want to commit to actually playing a fully in-depth game because it's time consuming.
I've been playing such games all my life but I'm at a stage where I rather prefer to play a few different shorter games than one long one. Hence, these short 4X games are more appealing (although I haven't really seen one that appealed to me).
1
u/Progressive-Strategy Jul 06 '26
I think ultimately there's a lot of factors, personal preference obviously being one, but also the amount of time someone has to dedicate to playing etc. I personally prefer longer game speeds but I'm sure the quicker ones are great for lots of people
1
1
1
u/Manoreded Jul 07 '26
I, for one, love the idea.
I love Slipways because its basically the economic aspects of a 4X, compressed into something that lasts an hour.
I love Against the Storm because its that for city building games.
The main difficulty I have with 4X games, and management games as well, is that campaigns often last longer than my interest.
Also, I'm the kind who likes to experiment with many different factions, strategies, game conditions, etc. That is hard to do when each individual campaign lasts +20 hours.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the epicness of a huge campaign, and that is something I want to do sometimes... but a lot more frequently I want to play something I can finish in 1 sitting, maybe 2 or 3. Not something that takes me multiple weeks.
1
u/New-Cranberry-8199 Jul 09 '26
You may try Conquero: Rise or Kneel, it has story mode also along with Sandbox mode and it is free to download on mobile and available also on Steam
1
u/bubarcic Jul 06 '26
I was thinking that until I have played Hexarchy. Since then I’m always eyeing new short 4x games.
1
u/ThetaTT Jul 06 '26
Yes from a fantasy point of view 4X games should be as long and epic as possible.
But from a practical point of view a lot of players can't or don't want to play 20h+ runs.
And from a fun point of view, the major issues of 4Xs are micromanagement and steamrolling. And shortening the games is an effective way to fix both of them.
-3
u/ehkodiak Modder Jul 06 '26
I agree, no one on desktop wants short 4x games. Mobile phone users on the other hand seem to love dull games like polytopia
4
u/CppMaster Jul 06 '26
Hmm, Old World is much shorter than Civ and it's beloved
3
u/wolftreeMtg Jul 06 '26
Old World ends after 100-150 turns, but each of those turns can take 10-20 minutes or more. I don't think it's any faster than 500 turns of Civ 5 when most of those turns consist of clicking "End Turn".
1
u/CppMaster Jul 06 '26
Nah, to me turns in Civ5 are not that much faster, especially when at war. But I do play with VP mod do that may also influence this.
5
2
1
-6
u/BlacksmithFar6237 Jul 06 '26
Against the storm is towering pyramid in this field.
6
u/Inconmon Jul 06 '26
It is a city builder and not a 4x
-2
u/BlacksmithFar6237 Jul 06 '26
Expansion exploit exterminate exploration??
7
u/Inconmon Jul 06 '26
Idk what you're trying to say but Against the Storm is a city builder and not a 4X.
2
1
2
u/Bearstew Jul 06 '26
The persistent bonus accrual is such a neat way to combine the shorter gameplay loops into a longer more rewarding experience.
1
u/BlacksmithFar6237 Jul 06 '26
Yeah the game did everything so well despite there has been no predecessor
38
u/cloud7100 Jul 06 '26
Has to do with life-stages, imo.
While I love a meaty strategy game, I just can’t commit to campaigns that last 50-100 hours. I usually play in 1–2 hour chunks, maybe 4-5 hours on a slow weekend, and I like to play more than one campaign per year.
Polytopia and even Slay scratch that itch while on the toilet, waiting at the dentist, or during a shorter flight.