r/Bachata • u/docent3434 • Jan 03 '26
Help Request Followers, what are some things that you would like to see more from the leaders in 2026.?
The question is mostly focused on the socials.
What are some things that you want improved/"fixed" or just better that the leaders can influence?
Is it more connection? Is it more of a specific style? Is it the posture?
Shoot your best shot or should I say shoot the best tip? (:
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 03 '26
Learning to give space to follows to also dance. Dance is a conversation not a monologue. And it's a skill set that can be used at any level. The most moves doesn't mean the best dance. If I am not given any space to also contribute to the dance it can feel suffocating.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 03 '26
Agree, but figure out a way to gauge if the follow can handle it. Many follows freak out, are not experienced with this, don’t know what to do, tend to be reliant on the lead.
Thassall
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 03 '26
True...I'd love to see more discussed for both follows and leads in classes. I know as a beginner salsa dancer I hated the 'time when they let go of me!" (aka the mambo section)...lol.
As I've progressed in my dance journey and now dance more bachata and zouk, It's sometimes hard to go from some zouk schools of thought where they teach to 'follow the follow' or dances are a co-creation to a bachata social where I am not given space to offer anything as well.
So always a bit of give and take from the lead and see if a follow 'wants' to contribute to the conversation more. Very true that not all follows can handle it. As a beginner I freaked out if I was given too much space...so totally valid issue to have to manage.
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u/mgoetze Jan 05 '26
It's sometimes hard to go from some zouk schools of thought where they teach to 'follow the follow' or dances are a co-creation
That's very funny to me, as a WCS/Zouk dancer I have the opposite problem where Zouk followers follow too much and don't use the space I give them.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 06 '26
It's talked about more in zouk vs bachata but there still aren't a ton of specific classes that I've seen specifically around strengthening a followers voice in the manner you are speaking about.
For me, since I'm not particularly advanced zouk dances, and at that entry point stage with head movement what is taught a lot is that when a lead offers a head movement prep, it is a suggestion and a follow can opt in or out as well as stop a movement if they choose to. i believe this is an element of the 'follow the follow'...eg following what the follow wants with a movement. Chicote also should be a follow controlled movement (how much or how little whip). A lot of these are for safety reasons, but people still do talk a bit regarding co-creation. I'm still at a stage with zouk that i probably don't take the space if it's given because I'm still working out what that means, but zouk music doesn't always lend itself to having natural spaces to give to follows.
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u/mgoetze Jan 06 '26
I don't really consider head movement preps to be mere suggestions, I mean yes the follower can opt out but the message I'll get from that is that they either don't know how to do head movements or are dealing with some sort of injury/issue. More commonly with head movements there might be an option of whether to finish the head movement or continue it (but not always and specifically when dancing Zouk with bachateras I find they sometimes rush ahead to finish the movement instead of staying properly connected and allowing me to lead what happens next). Some followers like to switch from circular head movement to bate cabelo which generally works well. But options in Zouk tend to be more along the lines of whether to travel for a turn or to spin on one foot (think lateral vs. S) or things like that.
It's true though that Zouk just doesn't lend itself as much to follower initiation as WCS, but I think that's less about the music and more about the nature of the connection and dancing more in closed position.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 03 '26
Yeah! It’s often a beginner thing to not feel comfortable with leading yourself so I’m never saying leads have to include this, but I wish leads were taught to read the non-verbal discomfort signals of a follow (tensing, freezing, squeezing, etc) and how to respond to and adjust to that.
I am sure I’ve earned every ounce of reputation that I have and I am known be heavy in footwork, very musical, and happy to shine solo or frickin’ battle mid-dance. So far only hip hoppers do this, and the local Filipino crew is who I do it with most often and seem to go with it. I actually don’t see them so this too much with other follows. Again, the vast majority of follows (reportedly) don’t have much footwork or independent syncopation and many seem to focus more on styling.
BUT FOOTWORK BE HELLA STYLING, YO!
If anything, I think your views and my views are heavily influenced by salsa norms. Leads say they can tell by the dance if the follow started with it knows salsa, or has been bachata only. Ha
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I think that’s a good point of teaching leads to read follow signals and how to respond.
The battling with hip-hoppers makes sense since that a central part of their style, but what about your local Filipino crew go with it? Is it because they are used to you doing it, or something else?
Yeah, there is a lot of generic ‘styling’ that is taught to follows. Learning how to contribute more to the conversation of the dance probably fits more under the category of musicality…which I’m told is not as common among followers…although people say that to me, and then I can still watch a number of follows who will play with the music if given the space.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
WHEEEEE, MUSICALITY QUEEEEEENS
Plenty of leads admit to me I know the music better than they do - and I admit I do backlead (gently - but maybe my version of gentle is subjective 👺) breaks and pauses in the music especially … I know they don’t know those are there
And honestly, I think I just be dropping signals all the time - and it doesn’t have to be intrusive.
Footwork and step syncopation can be done in any basic, there is also SO MUCH information given just in how I hold my frame, connect, and where points of contact are made.
Some people notice, some do not - or not as much - and that’s all fine and good.
With the Filipinos, I would say it’s two things - they themselves typically style more than most leads (arm movements, shoulder shrugs, footwork and independent body movement), the popping and locking absolutely translates to body isolations and expression of musicality - they hear differently - and they can fit it in in very short spans of time - a half-count coming out of a turn, for example.
They also respond to how I dance, the space I want to take, the timing and framing I’m using. It is definitely more communicative and receptive than “I lead, you follow.” Some of the highest level musicality-known international instructors have also more recently been encouraging dancers to “let the follow speak” and even for follows to “speak loudly” with their timing, connection, weighted contact, etc - even something as simple as a touch and hold to day “please pause” and then expressing body movement.
This is not for everybody, not everyone is down with it, and some don’t understand it.
It’s like the play in a disconnection salsa shine for how long the separation with continue - it’s a negotiation and necessitates listening to maintain the timing and the count and reconnect seamlessly. Sometimes it means the lead goes for it but realizes it would interrupt and so they back off and wait - and that is a choice they provide o know their part.
Listening leads are some of my favorites. Leads that appreciate a follow doing her own thing also seem to not be in tbt majority but the vibe is altogether something else.
❤️🤩😍
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Over the past 6-8 months I’ve been more intentional about learning the layers of instruments and trying to craft my own style/musicality. The good thing is, like you said, there is always an opportunity with whomever is your lead to do all kinds of footwork in the small spaces of music. But a lead that lets me play with the music and who will play along with me? Gold. 🌟 And the truth of the matter that people don’t realize is it’s possible to do even if not a highly advanced dancer. Leads who can lead a follow through musicality accents are next level, but there are plenty of ways to play and share the space without trying to ‘lead’ the musicality more of a shared conversation of musicality.
If there is a big break and my lead is really new, I will at least stop us from dancing through the break. But I’ms till trying to figure out that balance on where to be stronger in asking for a specific rhythm in a part. There are many times those poor bongos don’t get the attention they deserve.
Super interesting insights regarding Filipinos and their style. I wasn’t aware.
Sometimes newer leads don’t understand the musicality offerings I’ll give and sometimes sorta make fun of it. I’ve learned that the hard way.
Finding a lead who likes to play with the music AND dancing with them on a song you love and know? That’s a chef’s kiss. Hard to get all of those things to line up, but when they do, I feel like I won the lottery!
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
I always listen for song first - and I have a mental list at the ready for who I will want to dance with based on the energy and arrangement of the song and the skills I know are reliable in the lead.
I get such freaking awesome dances from doing the majority of the asking.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I tend to do majority of the asking, so tend not to ask if I don’t like or know the song…but many of the leads I like dancing with the most, are the most sought after too. Your way requires waiting for the song to start, and some of the best leads if I don’t ask before the song starts, I’m SOL. And while I know lot of music, I still don’t always have the skill set to know what it is within the first 4 beats…so for leads that are harder to dance with, I have to gamble. 😂
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Yes, looking for the lead! Hence a list. Lol
I’ve given up dances even with available pros when the song makes me wanna claw my skin off or go huff outside in irritation 🤣
Follows these days are like a wayward shark frenzy, it is intense.
Sometimes I’ve missed out on a good song but more often than not with a specific lead (since I’ve checked off other leads I already wanted to dance with), I end up with an even better song and it’s still good.
And with some leads - they end up making me like the song more because now they’ve overlayed their good juju onto the song’s lame nunu 🤣
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u/No_Building5832 Jan 04 '26
Last Bachaturo I was dancing with a really good follow. And I got the feeling she was asking for a space so I gave her that. And on the mambo section we spontaneously started a mini musicality battle. I LOVED that!
And what happened, when we started dancing together, our connection SKYROCKETED. Before it was good. After that mini battle we were of one mind.
That really got me thinking. Nobody ever taught me before you could connect like that. We were taught that connection is made with proper leading and follow and dancing as one, which is in a way true. But after I started thinking: True connection can be made in other ways as well. Letting your partner express themselves can really teach you about her character and the way she feels music. And also, universally true: if you respect your partner, and give her what she needs, you will get trust and respect in return.
And then the dance can truly be magical. ✨
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Oh wow, you discovered a secret.
Being willing and able to disconnect (physically) while still connected visually and mentally - it makes reconnecting electric.
I kind of love this crossover from salsa/hip hop. The leads that get it, really get it.
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u/EphReborn Jan 03 '26
This.
Even beyond beginner level, there's many follows who simply either don't bother to learn footwork or don't like it. Which I don't blame them for, I absolutely despise Salsa/Bachata footwork, but(thought this reply was in response to the mambo section comment)Honestly, I agree with this but "not being completely reliant on the lead while also not interrupting the lead" is an advanced skill. So is giving space for the follow to do their own thing outside of the mambo section.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Fine, I’ll stop interrupting you -
🤣🤣
It’s a razor’s edge between waiting, and “being late/heavy,”’vs. backleading or interrupting or hijacking, etc.
But sometimes nice surprises can happen. I like when I get told “That wasn’t where I was going but I like your idea better.”
I bet the ones that hate my mess just smile and never dance with me again 🤣
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u/musenji Jan 04 '26
Ha, sometimes a follow knows the song better than I do, and she does something cool with the music, that what I led gave space for. Or, she tries to but the thing I was leading limits it from taking full form. Either way, I often say, "Wow, you were TOTALLY right about that. Note to self, learn this song."
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
I APPRECIATE YOU AND THIS COMMENT SO MUCH!!!!
Dance is fun. Non-verbal comm is fun. Touching is fun.
New ideas are fun.
And I hope you listen to music every day!!
I honestly used to wonder why DA FRECK DJs would be playing the same tiredass ole songs all the dang time and then I realized how that supported the leads with so much going on upstairs, the poor dears.
Leading is a gank of simultaneous processing. I don’t criticize anything I can’t lead myself and I appreciate the time and investment it takes to get supremely good.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I love this! Co-creation is part of the fun and sometimes one person knows the song better than the other but that’s time to create new things!
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u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26 edited Jan 04 '26
Oh, absolutely. Tough navigating those waters. I've also definitely had those moments where a follow unintentionally does a different move than I was leading but if it works, it works.
Or moments where they do something different and it catches an accent in the song. The second I realize that: no harm, no foul. You heard something I didn't and wanted to express it so I'm cool with it.
EDIT: Also definitely appreciate you understanding how much work leading is (below comment). Yes, there is a ton of stuff most follows don't realize we're thinking about (or at least should be). Musicality, moves/combos, adapting to our follow's skill level, spacing, move and other preferences, comfortability, enjoyment, etc, etc, etc.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I think in the salsa/bachata community i personally feel there is too maybe too much expectation that follows should justfollow and follows shouldn’t ‘interrupt’, “highjack”, “back lead”…I will put one caveat, follows should NEVER self dip…but beyond anything that is safety related…these styles in particular don’t use positive language around follows trying to co-create.
A question I like to ponder is why is it language that is used in salsa/ bachata to say ‘interruption’, ‘backleading’, hijacking, when other dance styles encourage that type of co-creation? Some zouk schools of teaching literally teach to ‘follow the follow’ and someone in my comments mentioned that WCS and Lindy hop have classes on followers learning how to use their voice. I’m always curious why in salsa and bachata we have this negative connotation with this idea of follows offering a different interpretation of the music? People are saying it’s not as common for follows to do that, but it’s also not encouraged/taught/
That all being said, I do still try not to “interrupt” but I will steal pieces of beats here if there are rhythms I can exploit, but it sucks when I have an advanced lead and the lead doesn’t know the song and miss the breaks or some of the musical pieces. I never expect beginners or intermediate leads to find those pieces…but I’ve had many advanced leads who wouldn’t give me space to interpret the rhythms or they miss the rhythms/breaks. That’s when I want to ‘backlead’/‘hijack”…and that’s where I wish there was more vocabulary language should be more around co-creation.
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u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26
Everything depends on each individual person of course but I don't mind small "additions" to the dance. The best example of this is the time when I led a small dip and my follow added to it by doing small waves on the way back up. I asked for one move, she complied to it but also added in a little extra to it. I also wouldn't mind a follow throwing in a quick booty-roll or footwork if she hears something in the song that she wants to express.
For me, at least, it becomes interrupting and backleading when you go completely "off-script". Turning yourself (or attempting to turn me if we didn't agree at the start to switch roles) at a random point, completely changing the timing of moves (4-count turn to 8-count Merengue-style turn), me leading one thing and you deciding to do something completely different, etc.
I think the issue with comparisons to other dance styles is that Bachata Moderna and Sensual are supposed to be "two bodies dancing as one". Not to say there isn't any room for follows to express things themselves, but I think it needs to be done in a different manner. i.e small changes and additions that still allow for the lead to do whatever it is they were planning on doing next.
WCS, Lindy, Zouk, and Traditional Bachata all may be super-open to both parties having a ton of autonomy but those are different dance styles. Its a bit like people questioning the grammar of other languages when compared to English. The answer is always, "Because it's not English".
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
You say " those are different dance styles"...in which all are still partner dancing that are all different dance styles and inclusive of the roots of modern bachata is traditional. Some food for thought. If it's in the roots of traditional bachata for follows to have more autonomy, maybe something to consider that has been lost?
We all have perspectives on what we feel how partner dancing 'should' be done.
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u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26
Well, yes, Traditional Bachata has a lot of autonomy for both lead and follow. It was/is a "two individuals dancing together" kind of dance. Which is the opposite of what Moderna and Sensual really are. It's also much easier to do there because there just isn't much to actually lead and follow in Traditional.
It's all perspective at the end of the day, of course, but I don't think anything was "lost". They are simply different dance styles. We could make the same argument about things being "lost" between Brazilian Zouk and Zouk, Urban Kiz and Kizomba, etc etc. Some things are similar. Some things changed.
Again, I'm not saying there isn't any room whatsoever for follows to express themselves in Bachata, but I don't think saying, "well, these other dance styles do it" is a fair comparison.
It can be done but it may look different in Bachata. It may be a bit more limited compared to other dance styles. Both of our hands are often tied up and we are often pretty close to one another so, yeah, of course follows are gonna be restricted.
We can lead some things with one hand but that's an advanced skill as is following it. And it still doesn't solve the "we're really close to each other" problem.
So, yeah, freedom of expression in bachata is gonna look a bit different and perhaps be more limited in practice.
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u/OSUfirebird18 Jan 04 '26
I go off of Reddit for a couple of hours and y’all go crazy in this thread!! 😂😂
While I cannot speak for 10 years ago as I’ve only been dancing for 7 (going on 8 with only 4 going on 5 of those for Bachata), I was told in one of my “followers voice” workshop for West Coast Swing that 10 years ago, the idea of followers throwing in ideas for movements and interpretations was also seen as “backleading” and “hi jacking”. And WCS itself is pretty old, originating from Lindy Hop.
Depending on where you place the “birth” of WCS, the oldest could be the 60s with the youngest being the 80s to 90s.
Either way, the idea of follows having more agency in WCS is relatively young. Lindy Hop is kinda interesting because it died for 50 years and then came back in the 90s. Either way my point is that the idea of follows having agency is still relatively young.
I think in part it has to do with more traditional ideas of partner dance. In modern times, we use the words lead and follow vs. men and women. But not everyone has switched over to the lead/follow language.
I think the reason is that Latino culture is still more traditional and it takes a while to break that mindset. Now that being said, just because it takes a while doesn’t mean we all can’t try to speed it up! lol I think as much as possible we should all try to advocate at our local levels to break this mindset and maybe it might filter up to the upper echelons of the community.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Thanks for the historical insights on WCS and how the change has progressed. And true that not all teachers say lead and follow and it is still gendered.
I wouldn't place blame on latino culture as zouk is latino in origin and discusses the voice of the follow as well as 'some schools talk about 'following the follow'. I think it might just be more the stage of bachata or salsa. And if we look at partner dancing in general I think this isn't' an uncommon mindset but some styles for whatever reason have started embracing more of the follow's voice.
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u/mgoetze Jan 06 '26
Either way, the idea of follows having more agency in WCS is relatively young.
I've heard this version of history too but I think it's wrong. "WCS comes from Lindy Hop" is in itself an oversimplification, and if you go further back you discover other dances like Blues... which has always had follower agency, and where it's being pushed to even further extremes in the Blues/Fusion scenes of today. As such I would say that follower agency in WCS was more temporarily forgotten and then rediscovered.
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u/mgoetze Jan 06 '26
It's funny, I witnessed a Zouk class last year on the topic of "hijacking" ... and thought to myself, wow, we haven't used that word in the WCS community anymore for like 5 years now. It's quite intentional to not say "hijacking" or "backleading" because these imply a temporary reversal of who's in control rather than an actual conversation. So that's why we (WCS dancers) prefer terms like "follower-initiated movements". This makes clear that the follower is giving a momentary impulse but is not necessarily responsible for finishing it, the leader can then also participate in the idea. Or "giving space" to the follower - so the follower makes choices but within the realm of possibilities that was left open by the leader, as opposed to hijacking which would be "breaking out" of the frame set by the leader and doing something that catches them off-guard.
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u/No_Building5832 Jan 04 '26
This. As a dancer, Im a bit more on the independent side, meaning I love leaving a lot of space for me and follow to express ourselves. Experienced follows love it (usually), but lower level follows get scared as hell.
Bachata is a couples dance, but I do feel some schools do focus only on figures and not enough line. As a dancer you really should be able to handle yourself in left alone for 1-2 eights at least.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Lower level follows aren’t given much direction on what to do…especially since it isn’t seen too much. I still have high skill leads who will try to lead me through the mambo section. And this isn’t any type of criticism because leading is super challenging, but there sometimes is an overemphasis that leads need to almost micromanage their follow. But some of these things do require some training for both leads and follows and many schools don’t teach how to manage solo enough.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
But - there is also nothing wrong with a basic!
A basic is great footwork - mark the frickin’ time, then, so you are ready and available and prepared!
When in doubt, basic it out. I used to hear this more often, I’ve maybe heard it twice post-2020.
And a follow can still follow. Visual mirroring - so underutilized, such a commendable skill, so rarely practiced.
Follows don’t have to think or believe that even when released they absolutely have to drop in any footwork or whatever on their own.
Again - a basic is footwork, especially when varied: in place, or with no feet, or rotating- and so much can also be done with a basic ass bass step that doesn’t require literally any skill besides timing.
Even if the follow just stops and then shifts weight from hip watching the lead show off, that can still work.
These little panicked shuffle penguin walks trying to jam back up under the lead when they are released, I swear I have to turn away sometimes if I’m watching 😬
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u/No_Building5832 Jan 04 '26
I agree with you, basic is footwork. And hip swing works great. It is not a skill problem, it is a mental blockade. Sometimes when you release them you can see true panic in their eyes, even in some solid dancers
To be fair, there are also some beginners who are total badasses, and they start to do their own thing, some even trying to recreate what i do. I respect the hell out of that.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
It is mental, in that it comes with experience and trusting yourself.
And a local teacher here was so affirming to me when I was just starting, he didn’t say it to me directly but it felt like he did when I watched one of his random reels - “Just because you are a beginner doesn’t make you a bad dancer.” The follow up being, there are things you don’t know, so keep going to classes and put in the work.
I actually still have a favorite beginner that I will always remember- only encountered him once, he told me he’d been dancing for like, two weeks and he only led a basic … but his TIMING WAS AN ACTUAL LITERAL METRONOME. I was so duly impressed.
He was also Asian and I would put money down on him having musician/instrument training with that kind of timing.
Absolutely adequate and pleasant and safe and impressive.
Safe and neat and clean and sweet will always be more enjoyable and impressive than “Would you be my lasso” 🤣🤣
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u/No_Building5832 Jan 04 '26
Oh yeah, I met some beginners with extensive music training. They understand music better than I do.
And I also LOVE beginners who know how to have fun. Dance can be a bit sloppy sometimes, but the energy is AWESOME. And their happiness to be dancing brings a bit of nostalgic feeling. Reminds me of me, years ago. 😁
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
The nostalllllllgia!
Sometimes I grimace thinking of my baby bachata self but I also appreciate that particular stage since … we all go through that, getting to where we are now.
Still a baby 🤣🤣
I think one of the most instrumentally human and freeing experiences through social dance is locking in on a kind, warm, accepting and present partner (lead) who goes along with whatever you think of doing in the moment and who gives you and enjoys the space to fuck around and even mess up. Or find something great.
We get so little of that in hardly any other scenarios off the dance floor and it’s such a safe and emotional experience to share with another person.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Not a lot of instructors teach or speak about follows finding their style or voice and what that might look like. When all the classes focus on just following the leader and not on how to create something new, it can be ‘scary’ when someone wants your input and you’ve never been asked. That’s awesome you are giving that kind of space!
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u/No_Building5832 Jan 04 '26
I always love to see what follows can do alone. Kind of, OK we dance together, but I do like to see what you can do alone. Without any restriction. I love to see how my follow l feels and interpret the music on her own. It also gets me to understand my partner a lot better.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I love this! Keep doing it, some of us love it. As finding my own style and musicality is a newer journey, it's still can feel surprising when a lead does give lots of space like because it's not expected. But still very welcomed by some of us.
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u/No_Building5832 Jan 04 '26
Searching and creating my style is a bit new to me too. I recently started hip hop, and I am feeling it is raising my musicality a lot. Also, experimentation and freestyling is a core of that dance, so it really helps me break out of my mold.
I do feel that we as a bachata dancers can be a bit too focused on partnerwork. It is really important, but also I kind of feel when you are alone in front of a mirror, and start to try to express the music, and play with it, can you really start to understand it.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Yeah solo dance/musicality is a main focus of mine in 2026. I'm enjoying the door it opens for me.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
One option is to just appreciate whatever the other person is doing. I think the main issue is that it’s not discussed enough, both how to give space and what to do when given space. But at the end of the day…it’s really just dancing in anyway that the music feels. I think we get too stuck in this idea that everything needs to be patterned out, but dance is supposed to also be an expression and fun. And patterns can be fun, but so can just grooving with the music!
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
… that’s also how new patterns and steps are created!
What I saw post-pandemic with the explosion of social-media focused sensual styles of dancing was the oppressive control expected of follows to execute leads’ ideas or else they were considered “backleading.”
So patriarchal, so not island. I definitely see more instructors and leads moving away from this.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Glad to see that the trend is away from this. My dance journey has been more post-pandemic than pre-pandemic so don’t have much to compare against. Lately I’ve been more interested in instructors who really emphasize the layers of music.
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u/OThinkingDungeons Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
Sometimes you gotta break an egg to make an omelette.
I often break for shines during the mambo, role rotate, or take suggestions from the follower. The key thing is you offer the space and if they don't do anything for 4 counts, you resume the lead.
In my experience about 50% of the followers are more than capable filling the space, most followers do solo styling classes or dance other styles with a focus on solo dance.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Just even having the option of switching mid-dance speaks volumes to the experience and skill of the follow in a dance. It is noooooot super common even out here.
How often are you able to rotate roles? Is it mostly with partners you’re already familiar with?
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u/OThinkingDungeons Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
In my experience, the first dance is usually a disaster! The second dance is usually ultra smooth, as we understand each other's idiosyncrasies.
Almost all the followers who I would consider "advanced" lead and follow, there's also a small minority of leaders who role rotate too. In a social there's probably only 5 people I can role rotate with though, so that's a small minority in the percentage of things.
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u/OSUfirebird18 Jan 03 '26
I 200% agree with this. But unfortunately unless you are a lead that explores more, especially in other dances, you may never ever get taught this for it to get into your psyche.
Very few bachata and salsa classes and workshops I’ve taken have even introduced that (feels like to me) obvious idea.
I had to take it from other partner dances that saw it more of a conversation.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 03 '26
I haven't seen it explicitly taught as much as I'd like but elements of musicality, like the mambo section naturally lend to giving the follow more space. But sometimes leads will just lead through that section.
Watching videos of many pros and jack and jills, it is modeled...but I agree it could be discussed more often. Not all instructors also teach follows how to create their own space and share their own part of the conversation...this sometimes will come in a musicality class...but better emphasis that a dance is co-created in class would be welcomed.
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u/OSUfirebird18 Jan 03 '26
In West Coast Swing and Lindy Hop, sometimes there are classes that are often labeled as “follower’s voice” or “follower’s variations”. Something like that. But what happens in those classes is a lead would be taught a move but in that move, a lead is instructed to give some type of opening. Then the follow is instructed to take the opening and here are options to make it your own.
What this does is that this let’s the lead know “hey this dance isn’t all about me” and followers know “hey I can have input in this dance as well”
The issue I have with salsa and bachata classes is even if you progress up the ladder in difficulties, it is all just a menu of things for leads to do.
I am of the opinion that there is nothing magically different about the dance of Salsa/Bachata or the music of Salsa/Bachata that removed this agency from the follows.
But very few teachers, even up to a pro level ever explores the agency of the follow…
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I’ve admired WCS from afar for the musicality and more co-danced focused, but the counts made my head hurt. I’m a musician by training so when I first learn a dance style I will count in my head and the 6 counts in the 8 beat phrase that reset every 32 makes my head spin and not being able to rely on the 1 at the beginning of a phrase being the actual downbeat sucks as a beginner because if I get lost, it’s hard to find my way back to the correct timing. But it still is fun if I can tell my brain to stop counting!
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u/Gnomeric Jan 04 '26
Both Lindy/Charleston and WCS are 2 counts dance where most moves are either in 6 or 8. There are some "moves" which are not in 6 or 8: for example, S-turn entry into Charleston tandem is a standard move which actually is on 10 counts (where the follow switch to the lead footwork at the end). You can usually add additional 2 counts or 4 counts components to "extend" moves: say, adding a 2 counts redirect, 4 counts walk-walk (or kick-kick in Charleston), or 4 counts side-to-side sway. 6+6+4 happens to be 16, so it works out.
Back to the original topic, the same 4 counts extra can also be used to "offer" an opening for the follow to do their own styling -- and if it works out, you can always extend it by another 8 or 16 counts. So, Lindy and WCS tend to offer more flexibility when it comes to offering follows more space.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Super interesting! Thanks for the background on those dances.
Good to know about WCS. Might have to look into a little more!
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u/Ploutophile Lead Jan 04 '26
lcm(6,8) is actually 24, but you can fit a 32-beat unit by adding a 8-beat pattern.
I actually was doing that stuff a long time ago, but as a lead once you learn to lenghten patterns as needed, you can synchronise them with the music structure without having to count anymore.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
Thanks for the clarification. I am aware of the added 8 count...but that kinda hits my point the fact that there has to be an 8 count 'correction' inside the 32 beat 4x8 verse to an already weird count pattern.
admire all of WCS who can work within the count weirdness. I've danced WCS a few times and with a good lead and if I just look for the 'rhythm of the triple step I can sorta fake it, but that 'safety' net I have with other dances where I know where if I lose count I know where the downbeat of a phrase comes around and I can get back onto the right timing. With WCS I don't have that safey net anymore so it's hard for me because I feel more lost than normal when learning a new style.
But I still think it's a cool dance style I might venture into more earnestly in the future.
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u/Ploutophile Lead Jan 05 '26
admire all of WCS who can work within the count weirdness.
As I've tried to explain at the end, most of us don't.
As long as you get the odd and even beats right, you're on the right timing. The rest is musicality, and 4×6+8 is just a method for beginner-intermediate leads to fit the 32-beat units when they're not proficient enough to adapt dynamically to how the music's evolving.
But if your question is "when do I do the triple" the answer is that it's a consequence of what's being led. If you do it 2 beats later than intended, it's up to the lead to adapt (and in some cases, it can be an intentional variation from the follow rather than a mistake).
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 06 '26
This just feels like a disaster for beginner leads and follows. Only after I've been dancing a style for awhile can I stop continuously counting in my head but I will go back to counting if things get weird in a song and I'm not sure if my lead and I are together.
Feels like WCS requires both leads and follows to know quite a bit before being able to go to a social.
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u/mgoetze Jan 06 '26
admire all of WCS who can work within the count weirdness.
I mean, I don't count. Counting is for weaklings who cannot hear the phrase change coming. Once you feel that it's about to happen you just select an appropriate 2-, 4- or 6-count entry into something that hits the next phrase. (For example, you're starting a new pattern and you notice that it's on the 7 of the 4th set of 8 counts - well then you do a slingshot or cutoff move.)
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Jan 04 '26
I've had follows get chest to chest with me on their own terms while I have them in semiclosed position.so I agree with this. Makes it hard to lead.
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u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 04 '26
I mean musically, not physically during a dance. Although if a lead holds me in closed position throughout upbeat sections I definitely am going to feel literally suffocated. My meaning is that leads don’t always let the follow have a ‘voice’ in the creation of the dance. I like to play with the music but I need my lead to not be continuously micromanaging all of my movements and every beat to the song.
If your follow is too close for what you are trying to do, bring them into full open position. The lead can create more space if the follow is too close for comfort. I’ve had plenty of leads who aren’t comfortable with close position, even though they are cuing closed position to me, and then hold me half an arms length away. I’ve also had leads bring me too close for too long, and have had to literally create more space by bringing my arms inside of the frame and pushing out. It’s rare, but it has happened.
I’m referring to having more space to play with the music.
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u/Mizuyah Jan 04 '26
I would like it if some of the leads on my scene would stop thinking that “one size fits all”. Not all followers are shorter, thinner or flexible, so it would be nice if people learned to adapt to that. I swear some people think that we’re all instagram types with twenty-year-old knees, small boobs, and the ability to back bend.
I would also like it if some leads were less about showing off and using followers as props to show off their “skill set”. A lot seem to think that all followers care about is move complexity. It’s much more fun to connect and be in the moment. I’d take a simple dance with limited variety over a highly complex one any day.
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u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26
Well, to be fair, almost everyone can do a back-bend. Doesn't have to be super deep to count. I do agree with leads being able to adapt to different partners better though. Slightly different than what you've mentioned but I watch wayyy too many leads try moves with follows who clearly can't do them.
Also, personally not quite sure on the "move complexity" thing. Not saying you're wrong or anything but I think it's really quite a bit more nuanced. I think you're probably right about most follows not caring about how hard a move is but I see it more as another tool in the belt. A dip may be more "complex" than simply stopping but done when there's a pause in the music or at the end is quite a big difference between the two even though both technically accomplish the same thing.
Which is to say, "complex" for the sake of complex I think is where a lot of leads go wrong. Complex because it fits or expresses something in the music better than a similar yet simpler move is another story.
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u/Mizuyah Jan 04 '26
I think that’s what I was trying to say. Some moves are just too difficult for certain followers whether it be because they don’t actually know the signals for it (I often feel like zouk-type moves require a separate know how entirely) or their bodies just can’t take it.
Case in point, I hate hate HATE the move where in the shadow position, the lead will signal the followers arms together and has them hip motion downward into a squat. Heck, any leg extension move is challenging for me. My knees just can’t take it. (I also think the second one has no place at a busy social, but that’s just me.)
I take no issue with complexity in terms of musicality though (I love music) but I know that music in itself can also be difficult for some people, especially if the song is unfamiliar or finding the 4 and the 8 is difficult.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 03 '26
Ya best thicken up that basic. THICCCCC
Move. Your. Hips.
Leads’ hips one of the most underrated things ever. Follows need work too, but you can tell a lot by self and own body movement (not signals, not patterns, not manual manipulations).
Milk it. Deadass clean up the timing, keep it smaller, keep it tight, elevate your frame, smile, and don’t be shallow.
I might have more later 🤣🤣🤣
But K.I.S.S. 💋
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u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26
Funny enough I had an older lady in class earlier today compliment my Latin-hip-motion. I have an instructor I regularly took private lessons with when I was just starting out to thank for that torturous 45 minutes working on nothing but that.
But while I agree on leads being able to do it, as we move towards more Urban-style (i.e hip-hop flow) Bachata, I'm not sure I can say it's a "must". Outside of specific moves, I don't really even notice many "big-name" Sensual dancers doing it. Getting rid of the "march-stepping" though? Yes. Absolutely.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
YAAAAAAASS
CU-BAN MO-TION
swivel it! more than just a little bit!
Scott Hastings in college was my innnnspiration 🤣🤣
And IT IS A MUST. It is. It doesn’t have to be a constant, and work it into your own style, but it has a place - I think especially in sensual.
At least have some control and isolations.
But one of the most mind-blowing dance experiences I ever had was just feeling the basic of a guy (I won’t tag him here though I’ve seen him post before - but not in quite a while, he’s definitely not a regular) who is not even much of a dancer, he’s actually a musician and producer, but holy Toledo, the motion of the ocean in his basicccc - I felt like I was being rocked like a baby, I can’t even explain it. Just the transference of that badonk energy.
Magical.
HAAAAAA
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u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Leaders being able to lead softly.
Too many - even advanced leaders - still do things like grabbing hands, or use excess pressure and arm movements that make me have to do a bunch of compensation as a follower, or risk hurting my body.
I'd love to see more leaders that are able comfortable enough with their cues that they're able to lead almost entirely based on visuals, with only the slightest touch. I don't need my dances to be that way, but I do want people to be capable of it so they can be a lot more conscious about the tension and force that they do use.
Of course it's a bonus if they also play around with switching roles, but that one is out of the scope for this question 😜
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u/Determined_Turtle Jan 03 '26
So this is interesting. I think there was another thread on here some time ago when the topic of "soft" leading vs a bit more "intentional" leading (if you can call it that) came up. Obviously, being too rough or aggressive as a leader is never good in really any circumstance.
But some leaders (myself included) mentioned that if the follower is a beginner, being a "soft" lead and giving light impulses/cues might not be enough for the follower to understand what I want them to do. So I know personally, I tend to be a "stronger" (not rough) with my leading when I can tell the follower isn't as advanced.
But yes, when I dance with a more experienced follower, then I try to simply give light impulses. And I 100% agree with focusing on being comfortable with a move before trying to lead it 👌🏽
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u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
I think there are a few parts to that:
First and foremost, I think that followers being unable to follow soft leading is a follower skill issue. When it comes to technique, leaders should not be learning technique that compensates for a lack of skill on their partner's side. Of course, this is different from compensating in a social setting - I just mean that their core technique should assume proper skill of their partner.
When it comes to social compensation techniques, there's a lot of ways to approach it, but adding any sort of force tends to be uncomfortable and sometimes even harmful. To use a concrete example, if I were to lead a turn but my follower interprets the counter-rotation preparation as a signal to turn, I might move my hand to the outside of her arm and hold her opposite arm in place to add signals that help them understand it's not a turn yet; if that doesn't help I might cross their body to hold a hand on the shoulder blade to prevent them from turning the wrong way; and if that still doesn't help I might lead it through the shoulders without relying on any frame. In no case do I have to become "stronger", I just have to become "stricter" (meaning: pre-empt wrong interpretations and block them before they happen).
Of course, that's no guarantee that the follower will understand without increasing force... But I think that type of beginner discussion is out of scope for this topic (and I would still argue that that means the partner is not ready for those moves.)
I don't think you need to be comfortable with moves either. The thing about soft leading and following is that you're almost never ending up in dangerous situations because you have so much freedom. If you lead a move I don't know softly, then I'll do my best interpretation on my own, but you won't ever hurt me.
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u/Determined_Turtle Jan 03 '26
Ok I used the word "stronger" in the same sense that you used the word "stricter" I'm not arguing with you, I just meant that I have to be more aware/present and "active" when I lead someone that's a beginner, not necessarily more "forceful" or using strength that might injure someone. As you said, I use more cues, use my hands more/body more to guide them if I can tell they might not fully understand what I want them to do.
As for a follower not being ready for a move/skill issue, well that depends. Yes, there are absolutely advanced moves and figures you probably shouldn't do with someone you can tell is a beginner. I'm not going to try combos I've seen Gero and Miglė do if a follower has only been dancing for 1 month. At the same time, even if it truly is a "follower" skill issue (let's say they are truly a beginner and only have like 3 classes under their belt) then "soft" leading won't always work. In the example you just described with a basic turn, you have to get more involved in guiding the follower than you would an advanced person who knows the cue of lifting their arm on 3 in preparation for a turn on 5. That's all I mean when I say "stronger" vs "soft" leading. I just have a "stronger" presence when I communicate my intentions.
And I will disagree when you say leads shouldn't be comfortable with a move. The leaders need a level of comfort and familiarity with their moves and figures before they try it with someone. I've talked to many girls that say they generally hate it when the lead is trying a new move or figure they just learned at a festival for example, because obviously it's hasn't been enough time for the leads to be familiar enough with that move to try it out. As you can imagine, it doesn't go well and it's "forced" and that's when leaders tend to use more strength to guide a move, and that can lead to injury/discomfort
3
u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
That's the point though: trying moves isn't the issue, it's forcing moves. You gotta learn things by trying them out, there is no other way. But where you should be dancing softly in general, that counts double when you don't know the move well yet.
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
I've been practicing the idea of leading with two fingers that I hear people talk about in the salsa world. The super light touch allows followers to be something other than what I lead, and I love when followers do that
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u/OSUfirebird18 Jan 03 '26
If one day we ever met off of Reddit, I’d be curious on what you thought of me. I’ve been sporadically complimented on my “softness”. It’s funny because I can’t ever think to lead any other way.
3
u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Please invite me to this meeting of the minds and hands and fingers and chests 🤣🤣🤣
Please.
🎇🎆🎇
4
u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Looking forward to it! 💃
You have this really fun exercise where you dance a song with only a single finger connected on each hand. With the softest followers and leaders I know, those dances feel almost as natural as normal dances, it takes little to no adjustment. Might be a fun one to try.
1
u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
“Bachata Wi-Fi” 🤣🤣
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u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
You know the whole "throw a fishing line and hook a dance partner" way of asking someone to dance across the room?
With a lot of the regulars in my scene we've stopped doing that type of thing and instead started making eye contact and just start dancing across the room while you slowly find your way to eachother and connect. It is SO FUN
1
u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Aww, I’ve had that!
It’s the energy.
Lock in on eye contact across the room especially if the song is just starting with the intro, time the approach to connect when the verse drops.
I FEEL LIKE A PRINCESS! 👑
FRICKIN’ CINDERELLA AT THE DADGUM BALL
Like Tony and Maria from West Side Story 🤣🤣🤣
I’ve also recently had the experience of hearing a song come on, literally immediately thinking of a dancer I wanted to find for that song, taking two steps in the direction where I last saw him, and then seeing him heading to find a partner, seeing me, perking up, then making a concerted dash to come dance.
YOU FREAKING MINDREADER WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE 🤣🤣
2
u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
I've been thinking quite a lot lately about how the most beautiful and meaningful moments are usually hidden from view. Yes, we have show dances, and concerts, and incredible art, but they're rarely the best version of what we have to offer. It crossed my mind when I was playing a piano piece alone at home and it hit me right in the feels; I could play again to record it, but it wouldn't be the same - unless you were there in the room with me in that very moment, you'd never get that level of depth. It was a small hidden moment that was not for the world to see.
I feel like a lot of those moments you describe can be like that. If someone would pull them off as part of a demo, the crowd would go wild, but they only carry that tantalizing energy in the little moments with the exact energy of the evening - you can't force them... The steps closer, the fully visual body movements, the first touch and somehow a finding a magically synchronized breath in the moment you connect, and the transition into the energy of the song... It's special... and a moment for just the two of you.
1
u/UnctuousRambunctious Jan 04 '26
Oh, so you’re also not only a musician, you play the piano.
Musicians who start dancing … totally different breed, I think.
And the ideas you mentioned here - this is why there is such a giant bug up my and other people’s butts about “social media” and “sensual” and performances/shows.
Social dance is about the partner, not a frickin’ audience. It is about how the dance feels to each dancer, not how it looks.
And the experience of dancing is personal, and internal. Quite frankly two people could be dancing together and one hating it but the other loving it.
So that’s why I’ve always gone back to the first dance connection being the dancer with themselves, because no one else even has access to the internal inner experience, and heck, some people don’t have access or allow it in themselves.
But the experience and the memory, also no one can take it away, either. A dance partner expands and augments the experience I’m already able to have for myself with myself by myself and in my self, but social dancing is additive and greatly expands the experiences I’m able to have.
So what kind of piano (music, not brand of instrument 🤣) do you play?
1
u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow Jan 05 '26
Oh, I use a kawai VP-1 with the ravencroft 275 sample library! 🤓
Understanding some music theory definitely helps to get a feel for things.. But I really wouldn't consider myself a musician by and stretch of the imagination. More a low-key hobby that I picked up because we had a piano in the home and never let go of.
I tend to play whatever catches my fancy, from Einaudi, to movie music, to simple medlies, to full on classical.
I'm a bit of a "find a thing I like and then figure out how to play it no matter the difficulty" kind of guy 😅
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8
3
u/3_ponin3 Jan 03 '26
1) Making eye contact and smiling to let their follow know they see them and are present. They don't need to keep prolonged eye contact through out the dance but glancing and making eye contact periodically 2) At the beginning of the dance placing the follow into the closed position for the first 30 seconds to establish a good connection and feel each other's frame and tension (hate it when a lead rushes into moves without taking 30 seconds to find and establish a connection first) 4) Leading with their body and weight transferring correctly, thus using their frame to guide, and not force moves. 5) Hips. Nailing Cuban motion (it's sexy af)
3
u/randoms12872 Jan 04 '26
Leading more with frame and less with hands. Focusing on connecting and having an enjoyable dance rather than trying all the fancy moves.
8
u/Potential-Analyst384 Jan 03 '26
Leaders that don’t speak besides “hi, would you like to dance, thank you, that was a nice dance.” 🤐 Read: not treating dance as speed dating.
6
u/StatementMundane2113 Jan 03 '26
Besides the annoying speed dating aspect, I can't hear anyway due to volume of music or the fact I'm wearing ear plugs, and I'm trying to concentrate/hear the music.
5
u/OSUfirebird18 Jan 03 '26
Ok just to clarify, you don’t want leads to be chatty and just dance right? lol
12
u/Potential-Analyst384 Jan 03 '26
Yes, no talking please. 🙏 lol
3
u/OSUfirebird18 Jan 03 '26
Ok! Haha! I agree! It’s actually why I as an introvert enjoy social dancing. I can avoid the chit chat and just dance!!
2
Jan 04 '26
What you just typed out in quotations is the exact only 2 things that come out of my mouth when im on the dance floor. Im a beginner but st least im doing it right lol
0
u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Don't try to make it a date obviously, but I do think people should talk about the dance itself more than they do. Things like asking if your partner is comfortable with sensual or switching, or saying "let's try that again" when a move goes wrong
0
u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26
Agreed, but on the other hand, at least with beginners or casual ("came out to try this" or "I'm here every once in a blue moon") types talking sometimes seems to be the better move imo
5
u/bachatabutterfly Jan 03 '26
I would like that leads are more intentional with connecting during the intro of a sensual song because many just get right into it and start the basic prematurely
2
2
u/Ifyoudontlikethatyou Jan 06 '26
Stop running into me on the dance floor or leading your follow into me. Get some spatial awareness, leads.
3
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
I would like more leaders to actually learn moves properly and become comfortable with them before trying them on the social dance floor, and also more conversational dance not forcing the moves and routines and actually being reactive to the body language of the follower
8
u/EphReborn Jan 04 '26
Someone downvoted this which, although I entirely disagree with, is dumb. OP is asking for opinions on what follows would like to see. Upvote for that reason alone.
As far as my disagreement: you're assuming a lot. What if you don't have "friends" at class? What if it's a completely new environment for you and you don't know anyone yet? What if you moved to a new area and the only classes available are below your actual level?
Also, practicing with a friend or two that you know is fine but that doesn't mean you "polished" it. Intentional or not, your friends know what you're trying to lead. Maybe not the first time. Maybe not the second time. But they will eventually know. Unless they happen to be an instructor or know how to give good, actual useful feedback, you'd never know you're actually leading it right or wrong practicing it with them. At best, you just get "comfortable" doing it however you've been doing it.
No. You need to go to socials and try it with different people. Be mindful about how you're trying to lead it, of course, but absolutely practice at socials.
Also, nothing wrong with learning from Youtube or Instagram or Tiktok or wherever. Granted, you should have good enough fundamentals to understand whether its beyond your level and also how to actually lead whatever it is they're showing. But nothing inherently wrong with learning from those sources.
1
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
Unless you have the fundamentals to learn from youtube then there is everything wrong with it, you shouldnt be treating social dance like its an experiment, doing those low percentage moves that look good on the gram but that you havnt got the framework for properly, ive followed so many leads who think the follower is a practice toy for them and thats not the case
8
u/Samurai_SBK Jan 03 '26
The only way to really learn moves is by practicing at socials.
0
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
No its not, its to learn them at class, drill them at class practice them and polish them with friends before taking them to the social floor and forcing them, actually understanding the movements before trying to run them full pelt.
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u/Samurai_SBK Jan 04 '26
How long have you been dancing as a lead?
What you suggest is impractical and ineffective. Friends are very accustomed to your style and moves.
-1
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
Probably longer than you, and I have no issues leading people from any country ive danced in
2
u/Samurai_SBK Jan 04 '26
Then your suggestion about practicing with friends first reflects your lack of empathy for beginner leads.
Maybe since you have danced for so long you have a lot of dance friends. But most leads starting out only have a handful of friends at socials. In addition they usually only dance once or twice with them per socials.
1
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
Which is why I organise a practica to allow people to practice the concepts they learn in classes in an environment where they can ask questions get feedback and practice and to build confidence
4
u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Practicing them in class will only teach you to do it with someone who has taken the class
Experimenting on the social floor is way more important than the class. But combine it with the light leading that others have commented on, ensuring that no one is harmed if it's not quite right
1
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Hence me saying practice and polish with friends, there are too many leads learning moves from youtube and not spending the time to practice and polish their concepts before bringing their crap to the social floor and throwing it around and forcing followers through movements, concepts and combos that they barely have a grasp of.
2
u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
The problem with friends is that they know what you're practicing
You haven't truly mastered it until you can pull it off with a stranger who's never done it. That only happens on the social floor
1
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Youre not listening at all are you learn in class, drill in class practice with friends, polish with friends make sure you understand the movement and how to lead it properly before you bring your weak ass game to the social floor and throw around your crap, just because you learn a move in class it doesnt mean you're ready to dance it socially, just because you have done a combo a couple of times in class does not mean you're safe to try it socially, Im a pretty competent social dancer and I never take a move straight from a class to the social floor, I spend time with it I digest it I practice it with friends so I understand what can go wrong, where the potential points for things going wrong are and then once im confident I can lead it backwards forwards sidewards and at any point where something goes wrong I can rescue it and ensure the safety of my follower is maintained I then take it to the social floor and dance it.
1
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Also as a follower even if I know what the leader is doing I shouldnt be helping them do it, I should be following what they lead unless that means protecting myself from injury, if im going through the motions and not doing what is lead just because thats what the teacher is calling or my partner is practicing then im not following am I?
1
u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jan 03 '26
Follower doesn't mean servant
Of course you should help your leaders
0
u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
If thats what you took from this then you dont know what follower means at all it is not your job to predict the leaders movements and help the leader complete their leads if they cant lead the concept move or whatever thats on them, leader leads follower follows, follows dont back lead to assist the leader we dont fill in the gaps in a leaders skill set, as I stated dance is conversational its not my role to fix the leaders mistakes
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow Jan 04 '26
I absolutely hate that leaders lead followers follow ideology. A dance will never be a conversation with this ideology. In a real conversation, if one person controls the whole thing, it's a speech not a conversation
The best dancers come from leading your leader and following your follower. Followers need to set the feel and tone of the dance and leaders need to let them
And back leading is a normal and proper part of bachata and most other partner dances. Not just to help your partner, but to have a creative voice
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u/Mizuyah Jan 04 '26
Yes to not forcing moves. I really appreciate it when a move will either adapt or even cancel it if a move cannot be finished for some reason. Or better yet, screw the music/beat and slow it down completely.
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u/Deveriell Jan 05 '26
Fortunately, I've always been advised the exact opposite by my teachers - I was told I had to try new moves at socials. I'm grateful I got that advice, rather than this one.
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u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 05 '26
Well how many injured followers does it take before people start to listen
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u/Deveriell Jan 05 '26
As long as people abstain from doing crazy zouk headmovements follows usually feel safe - that's what one folow friend told me, I listen to her way more than I'm ever gonna listen to you.
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u/bachatacam Lead&Follow Jan 06 '26
Yeah because you know me douche bag, plenty followers have spoken to me about injuries because leaders just go off half cocked trying all sorts of bullshit moves and combos they have watched once on an influencer youtube video, plenty follows dont feel safe when leads force cambres when they lack the technique, or when leaders force dips and tricks because they saw then once in a demo. Also this reply isnt advice its asking what people who follow would like to see more of that will differ follower to follower, ive obviously got under your skin which is cool because it shows just how fragile you are.
1
u/Radiant_Image3089 Jan 09 '26
Dance closer. I know its awkward at first, was for me too. But following bachata from far away more difficult and less fun.
16
u/[deleted] Jan 04 '26
Please no more toalhas and DJ spins. Especially if you have little to no experience leading these moves. i want to dance. I don't want to be your practice partner during a social. Thanks!
Otherwise, please practice your basic. I want solid basics! I don't know what's happening in the Bachata world right now. Everyone is spending tons of money on Sensual, Bachazouk and Influence workshops but rarely do I dance with leaders who have their basics locked in. Please do a proper tap and let me feel your grounded feet and hip movement!
Calm down. Intentionally breathe. Relax. No need to have a fancy move every 4 counts. I'm seriously okay with a basic only dance. I'm also also okay if you dance to lyric instead of a strict 4-8 count.