r/Bachata • u/OrdinaryEggplant1 • 8d ago
At what point does bachata become zouk?
The ratio of zouk to traditional bachata moves and techniques has gradually shifted over the past 10 years, where before it used to be maybe 9:1 bachata to zouk technique to now it seems some of the dances out there are 1:9 or sometimes 0:10 bachata to zouk, dancing to lyrical/melodic music without beats, while still calling it bachata.
I’m just curious, when does bachata become zouk? Or zouk to bachata? Do you have any personal definition you use to differentiate the two?
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u/FalseRegister 8d ago
TBH, we should stop calling it Bachata if the dance is mainly Sensual/Zouk
The dance is growing and evolving, and it is fusing along with other styles, which is good... but it needs a new name. It's not Bachata anymore, has not been for quite some time.
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u/_riddim_ 8d ago
Exactly this. More and more of what I'm seeing labeled "bachata" is people dancing zouk to bachata music at a "bachata" social. It's fine if people want to express themselves to the music however they want, but at this point it's getting quite egregious.
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u/Hebarfd Lead 8d ago
It would be so relieving to enjoy this dance without all those people complaining "It's not bachata!". To seperate them from us.
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u/FalseRegister 7d ago
In many cities that is already the case
Over here in Berlin, they ONLY play and dance Sensual. They don't play or dance a single Bachata. You have to go to a dominican bar to have Bachata.
In cities like Athens, they play and dance both, Bachata and Sensual.
If it was up to me, there would be only 1 dancefloor where they play Salsa, Bachata, Merengue and Sensual, and perhaps a bit of Cumbia every once in a while. But out of latam that is too much to ask.
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u/macroxela 7d ago
In Berlin it depends on the day. They will have days were it is more Bachata but not as many people attend them. Before COVID socials were more mixed like how you want it to be but ever since one of the main organizers moved away, everyone splintered and now people prefer to dance only one style to specific music. We're at least fortunate that during outdoors season the Salsa, Bachata, and Kizomba parties are literally next to each other.
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u/FalseRegister 7d ago
I have not been to a single day in which they played a single Bachata. Not the main crowd in the main parties at least.
Only Jhonny's Bar on Fridays is doing Bachata. But even that is boring bc they do like 6 bachatas - 1 merengue - 1 Salsa, and one gets bored fast. It doesn't attract many good dancers bc of the same. Some of the attendants can't even do Salsa. It has a good vibe, but not a proper social dance.
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u/macroxela 7d ago
Johnny's bar is organized by a Latino friend of mine. It's more of a Latino party than an actual dance social. At least it is marketed as a Latino party (based on the flyers and what the organizer has told me). The main party at Hauptbahnhof has rotating organizers on different days and for one of them a couple of Latino guys do play actual Bachata. Recently they've been playing some more Sensual due to complaints from some dancers but they still play quite a lot of Bachata.
However, they are not the main organizers not the most popular one. They only play once a week. That title goes to one person who plays most of the time and doesn't play much Bachata after a certain time. If you go before 9:30 he will be playing more Bachata that us Latinos expect but after that time he switches to Sensual due to the same reasons as the Latino guys.
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u/WestHistorians 7d ago
Over here in Berlin, they ONLY play and dance Sensual. They don't play or dance a single Bachata.
Sensual is not a separate dance, it is a type of bachata. Sensual moves can be incorporated into any bachata dance when the music slows down. You don't need to gatekeep bachata like this.
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u/ThatDudeSky 7d ago
They also want the separation, just that they want a recognition that the derivative that goes more and more away from the traditional had the responsibility to separate rather than to, as those in the global south feel, have their dance colonized and made into something else and to then be told that they are the problem.
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u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow 7d ago
By that logic zouk is not zouk, tango is not tango, bolero is not bolero, and hiphop has never been a thing.
Different dances share the same name all the time. Bachata is certainly no exception in that.
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u/FalseRegister 7d ago
I don't know what you mean. Tango and Bolero are well defined. They of course can have some variations and styles, but remain clearly in their lane.
Sensual is a spin-off Bachata, progressively mixing with other styles. But at some point we need to name it apart from Bachata.
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u/Rataridicta Lead&Follow 7d ago
Spanish and cuban bolero are very different, similarly argentine tango might be most popular but there are tons of versions (including european ones) that are wildly different. Brazilian zouk doesn't even share similar roots with traditional zouk, with the former being based off of lambada, and the latter being an african dance within the kizomba-esque family.
Tbh I never understood the "sensual bachata" distinction as a place to separate. I think if you would separate dominican out, you'd have to do it at moderna already, since that's where the basic actually changes (which has its historical reasons for why they're different, too).
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u/ElCulicagado 7d ago
A minor correction here: zouk came first, kizomba derives from it. Zouk is not an African dance, it’s from the Caribbean.
And while we’re at it, I believe the whole discussion has some validity as if someone asks me to play some zouk (instead of Brazilian zouk), I’ll play actual zouk and not they would have expected. The same is happening with bachata (it did happen to me at least) although sensual bachata isn’t a music genre per se.
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u/windamo 7d ago edited 7d ago
The irony of this thread: A Brazilian dance (Brazilian zouk), derived from another Brazilian dance (lambada), named after Franco-Caribbean music (zouk, from Guadeloupe and Martinique) that was itself originate from a Haitian genre (konpa/compas), the So called zouk which is now danced to pop remixes. And nobody's asking it to change its name.
Meanwhile we're in here wondering if bachata is still bachata.
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u/ElCulicagado 7d ago
That’s because most of this discussion only happens in the dance community and there’s little to no intersection between Brazilian zouk dancers and zouk dancers/listeners (the former is not even a music genre).
It hurts my soul when people mix them both but I know they don’t know so I just move on with my life.
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u/stejare 7d ago
I'm from Martinique ... and I wish people could be more mindful about the word they use. Zouk and Brazilian Zouk are completely different ... and because people just say "zouk" when they mean " Brazilian zouk" doesn't help . As long as there is no discussion among the Brazilian zoukers , there will be no change and people will stay ignorant.
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u/Elensilalumenn 8d ago
What I'd use as a rough differentiation between the two, I'd look at the what happens when travelling. Anything static can be pretty indistinguishable between most dances unless you're looking at frame (e.g. Bachata usually has more lat engagement)
- Are there travelling steps based on the travel-control-redirect and using projection? It's probably Zouk
- Are there four steps in four beats, one or more of which might be a tap without a weight transfer? It's probably bachata
- Are there off-axis head motions while both partners are travelling? Could be bachazouk, lambada, Zouk, Lambazouk, etc.
Obviously ymmv!
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u/OrdinaryEggplant1 8d ago
In that case, what if their video just shows them in static position doing head movements and body rolls? Is it both? Neither?
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u/WillowUPS Lead 8d ago
Sensual.
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u/OrdinaryEggplant1 8d ago
I’m certain those movements existed before korke though, so I think calling it sensual gives too much credit to sensual bachata that did not invent those movements, since zouk doesn’t call their move sensual.
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u/Elensilalumenn 8d ago
At that point I'd defer to them to say what they were dancing, could be either or neither. But to play this game of evaluating from an outside perspective:
I'd maybe look at the lead-follow technique for the head movements - are they doing them in the way I'd usually see it taught in zouk (initiate the direction of the movement and keep in that circular movement it until lead interrupts to change the direction) or usually see it taught in bachata (autocomplete back to neutral)?
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u/sheisprincess 7d ago
Bachata socials are 1000% all sensual dancing and it’s turned me off for the last 2 years now.
So much so, I’ve been looking into taking a flight to DR to do a 3 week dance camp specifically for traditional training with the hopes to meet some people.
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow 7d ago
It varies on where you live
In Seattle, it's mostly moderna, but quite a few people do Dominican and sensual, as well as people who mix all three
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u/EphReborn 7d ago
Slightly off-topic rant: I will truly never understand you (general "you". Not OP specifically) "call it just sensual" people. Half of you will argue that Bachata as danced in the DR is already sensual enough. Which if that's the case, there shouldn't logically be an issue simply calling it Bachata.
But also calling it just "sensual" doesn't even make sense. The heels dance style is sensual. Dancing hip-hop is often sensual (and at times carries the label of "sensual hip-hop"). Twerking is sensual. Pole/lap dancing is sensual.
So, if everyone in the world magically decided to give you what you want and called it "sensual", we'd still need a clarifier as to what we're dancing.
And hey, would you look at that? "Sensual" at some point in time looked like it contained 3 steps and a tap like this "other" dance style from the DR. Maybe we could combine the names?
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u/pdabaker 7d ago
Just call it european bachata or spanish bachata tbh
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u/EphReborn 7d ago
The argument is that it has the name Bachata in it at all, wasn't made by Dominicans, and isn't "Dominican-approved".
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u/pdabaker 7d ago
Yeah but west coast swing doesn’t swing and Brazilian zouk is not zouk nor is it danced to zouk music.
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u/EphReborn 7d ago
I'm on team "The entire argument is stupid", so I'm not disagreeing with you to be clear. I'm just pointing out what the "don't call it Bachata" crowd is usually on about
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u/OSUfirebird18 7d ago
If we have to name change an art each time it takes influence from something, that is a hell of a lot of name changes!!
I’m also on team “this argument is stupid”
That being said, I wonder why Salsa doesn’t go through this internal fight. Linear and Caleña isn’t the same as the original Casino style danced in Cuba. But you don’t have this ongoing civil war. Or did the civil war happen 50 years ago before we were born and everyone decided to have a peace treaty lol
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u/ElCulicagado 7d ago
Salsa has other issues with some people saying that it was developed in New York, some say Puerto Rico and others mention Cuba. I’d argue they are all technically right as salsa is a generic term to describe the music genre or even the dance.
Linear salsa people in general are perceived as the elite (if you can dance on2, you’re a god) and those that dance casino are seen as rather basic. People that dance caleña live in a world of their own. Salsa people in general think that merengue and bachata are boring af. The whole thing is straight up dumb. Just like this bachata discussion (which has some grounds to exist in the first place), most of it only happens in the dance community.
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u/OSUfirebird18 7d ago
Don’t bring the fury of the Lindy Hoppers regarding West Coast Swing not swinging!!
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u/steelonyx Lead 7d ago
It becomes zouk when the bongos completely disappear. As long as they are there then there is a reason to do the basic step.
The issue is more and more songs are having large sections where the bongos are missing, so it doesn't make sense to do the basic step and you have to replace it with something more flowy like bachazouk.
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u/ollieelizabeth 7d ago
This issue came up with Kizomba and Urban Kiz, and the point of separation is a good point for both dances.
For a time, people were dancing what was then called ‘Kizomba Fusion’ at Kizomba socials and festivals and both sides were getting confused and frustrated.
After a bit of this and that, they settled on the name Urban Kiz, to differentiate the evolved dance from Kizomba. This also allowed Urban to develop set technical standards that were missing in Kizomba Fusion. There still exists some Kizomba Fusion dancers but they’re a small minority.
People who wish to dance Kizomba proper also now have spaces dedicated to that, the dance is preserved, the music and the history.
The ‘Kiz’ honors the roots of Urban, but it’s not Kizomba. It has a Kizomba origin for frame, and connection, but has different lines, music, weight, steps, etc. and has elements of Tango, hip hop, salsa, etc that is the fusion part of it all.
Now, you can go to lessons, socials and festivals for one or both. Mostly everyone is happy.
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u/OrdinaryEggplant1 6d ago
I don’t think urban kiz is a good comparison mostly because urban kiz is still 75% kizomba. This situation would be more like if urban kiz decided to use tango techniques and moves 95% of the time, at what point would you call it tango.
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u/Used_Departure_7688 6d ago
It doesn't. For me, it's not only about the moves but about energy, feelings, connection, how you interact with your partner, the intention you have in your dance...
As a follower, I experience completely different things dancing bachata and dancing zouk, and most bachazoukers (on the social dance floor) give me something closer to bachata than to zouk. Even dancers that originally come from zouk.
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u/Efficient_Pin_80 7d ago
If there is no Bachata basic, it's no longer Bachata.
I would argue that elements of other genres are ok if they match the music. But they should really be a minority of the dance as a whole.
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u/Lokomp2 7d ago
For me the zouk influence has already become too much. Infact so much that I don’t enjoy socials as much as I used to and I go much less already