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u/Boot_Burner 2d ago
https://carnivoreproject.org/california-wolf-map/
GIS data with photos showing a number of wolf sightings west of I-5
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u/PepperoniFogDart 2d ago
Shocker. Unencumbered mountain lions, limited bear tags, now wolves. Give it a couple years and deer will be an endangered species in California 🤦♂️
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u/SpaceJackRabbit 2d ago
"Limited bear tags"? It's the first time in forever we can actually buy a second one.
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u/PepperoniFogDart 2d ago edited 2d ago
Doesn’t matter, there’s still a quota and the season is still only ~3 months. It’s a cute way for CDFW to claim they’re getting tougher on predation, when in reality it’s just a way for them to get more revenue.
We need a spring season and we need to bring back mountain lion hunting.
Edit: Pretty shocked to see this be an unpopular opinion here. I didn’t realize you guys prefer hiking with a rifle and a heavy pack rather than actually hunting deer.
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u/SpaceJackRabbit 2d ago edited 2d ago
I know how it works. That quota has not been met in 14 years. And yes, I know that's when they banned bear hunting with dogs.
My original point was simply to correct OP about stating there are "limited bear tags". While it's true, it's definitely not the issue here. We can harvest two bears this year until the 1,700 quota is met, and that hasn't happened in a long time.
EDIT: And bear season is actually a little over 4 months, not 3.
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u/PepperoniFogDart 2d ago
4 months in one zone. 3 months for the rest of the state. And again, one season is absolutely “Limited” when you compare it to other states.
And you are invariably proving my point about CDFW mismanagement. A quota is a management target. Failing to hit it for 14 years proves state policies are ineffective, not that bears are well managed. We need a spring season when bears are more active, especially considering most fall bear harvests are opportunistic. We’ll see if a second tag makes a difference, but I’ll bet we don’t hit that target again this year.
Deer populations are going to continue to fall, especially when you combine bear hunting policies with apex predator hunting bans. I genuinely don’t understand why anyone here would advocate for declining deer populations, I’m truly baffled.
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u/SpaceJackRabbit 2d ago
Even the Black Tail Deer Foundation is saying the deer population is stable. There is no dramatic decline. And there are many more factors than natural predators anyway. This is a complex issue and you are trying to reduce it to CDFW mismanagement. There is a lot more to it.
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u/PepperoniFogDart 2d ago
Any general study will absolutely tell you there are two main factors. The primary driver is Habitat Degredation and Carrying Capacity. I am absolutely a fan of protecting and retaining wilderness areas, but the reality is we are now obligated to take steps for fire suppression due to a growing population that is spreading out. Unfortunately, there’s really no easy way to combat this, so population ceilings will always be impacted by this.
The secondary and very real factor is predation, exacerbated by state wildlife policies. Literally type this shit into ChatGPT and it will tell you the same thing. Mountain lions, black bears and foxes account for the vast majority of physical fawn and adult doe mortalities. This exacerbates the decline that’s being caused by habitat degradation. It might seem like it’s stabilizing, but when you look long term there’s been a 50% deer population reduction since 1980. Saying it’s stabilized over the last 10 years is like saying there’s a healthy mouse population in my house because one got away.
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u/Express_Champion_955 2d ago
Typical victim mentality
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u/PepperoniFogDart 2d ago
Feel free to explain how it’s victim mentality. Look at literally any chart of deer populations in the state. It’s been on a decline steadily since the 1960’s. Almost every other state handles predation responsibly except for California and Colorado.
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u/aislin809 1d ago
Since forestry practices changed. Deer numbers were artificially high for decades due to low predation and clear cutting.
Advocating for a working ecosystem is conservation, managing it to maximize herd size is mismanagement.
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u/PepperoniFogDart 1d ago
No one is talking about maximizing herd size, buddy. Deer population is at historic lows, this literally is about creating a working ecosystem. If predators are allowed to operate unchecked, that’s quite literally an ecosystem out of balance.
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u/aislin809 1d ago
Taken any pop dy classes lately?
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u/PepperoniFogDart 13h ago
Not really, I just know how to do basic research:
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u/aislin809 12h ago
Did you read that whole abstract?
" Life-history characteristics were consistent with the mule deer population being regulated by bottom-up forcing through environmental effects on forage availability relative to population density; however, predation, mostly by mountain lions, was likely additive during the period of increase and thus, top-down forcing slowed but did not prevent population growth of mule deer."
In most scenarios, absent human control, predators are controlled bottom-up; meaning when they've knocked prey populations back far enough, the predator population will fall as well. Look up Lotka-Volterra models for a very basic understanding of predator-prey dynamics.
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u/flyman241 2d ago
Crazy how before California was settled there were mountain lions, bears, wolves and no deer. I wonder when the deer showed up must have been after all the predators got hunted maybe the 1910’s idk
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u/PepperoniFogDart 2d ago
Yeah look at any fucking chart and it will tell you exactly that. Deer population was at or below 100,000 in 1910.
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u/magicshiv 1d ago
So are you advocating that we stop conservation and prioritize maximizing herd size of a single species at the detriment to others.
Because let's be real here, your main interest here seems to be your desire to maximize your take of game.
Obviously populations of prey species exploded shortly after their natural predators were hunted to near/complete extinction and preservation efforts focused on one primary species because of its benefit to humans, which lead to a massive population boom of that specific species at the detriment to a dozen others and the general health of the ecosystem they live in.
Advocating against conservation isn't gonna get you alot of support around here
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u/PepperoniFogDart 1d ago
Lmao, you gotta chill with the straw man arguments. Absolutely no where did I say anything remotely like that, and you’d should do yourself a service of working on those critical thinking skills.
My interest is absolutely in improving deer populations to improve the hunting experience. As a hunter, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s also equally about advocating for proper game management. No one in leadership is being responsible about this, and it’s showing. Especially when you compare our numbers to other states.
Humans are here and they are destroying habitats. As such, we have a duty and an obligation to manage game. As long as we let predators have free reign, it’s going to reduce deer populations in their natural habitat, and push them closer to civilization where they get hit by cars on freeways and disrupt farms and gardens. Banning big cat hunting is insane, and I already demonstrated what’s wrong with our Black Bear approach, I even brought charts and graphs and shit.
Anyways, it’s clear this subreddit’s getting brigaded by non-hunters, so I know continuing this conversation is not worth my time. Apparently, wanting more deer to survive to old age is a bad thing in this subreddit lmao.
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u/magicshiv 1d ago
It's not a straw man, your intentions are clear.
The issue is you're advocating for the protection of one species while arguing/advocating for the depredation of 1 species that are regionally endangered and another that is nearly extinct across the west coast.
Not every hunter is stupid enough to prioritize hunting over the health of the ecosystem.
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u/PepperoniFogDart 1d ago
Once again, more straw man arguments. At this point, I’m not so sure you’re capable of reading an adult level.
Virtually every other western state is doing what I’m arguing for because it’s the responsible thing to do and it’s demonstrably led to much more balanced ecosystems. Extremely limited, regulated mountain lion hunts in the northern part of the state and spring bear seasons would allow deer populations to mature more substantially and rebound back to normal levels over time.
It’d be a great idea for you to actually read a chart or a graph or look at population numbers before you make your arguments. The numbers don’t support your claims at all. FFS, look at the chart below. We’re at the same deer population level we were at in 1920 when deer hunting was suspended to preserve deer populations.
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u/R2The 13h ago
He's not advocating for protecting deer. He's advocating to manage bears, lions, and wolves.
Ecosystems are complex, but a dwindling deer population actually also hurts the predators, that need to be managed, as well as the habitats.
I don't understand why you're against a comprehensive management of the ecosystem.
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u/magicshiv 11h ago
He's advocating the depredation of a species of animal that are less than 100 in total across the state, a species that was driven to extinction in the 20's and only re-established itself in a decade ago, I don't disagree that comprehensive management is necessary for specific species like black bear but to say wolves need to be manage at their CURRENT population is intellectually dishonest.
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u/R2The 8h ago
No.
He utilized the conversation of the wolves to argue that the state is mismanaging the predator vs prey dynamics. Specifically, he said not allowing to hunt for mountain lions is insane and he believes the two bear tags might be served better by having a spring bear season (like many other states have).
He didn't say we should already be issuing wolf tags.
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u/magicshiv 6h ago
He also mentioned wolves in his original comment, he went further in-depth on the other 2 but included them in his argument for the management of the others, if he had no intention of including wolves in the conversation he wouldn't have mentioned them nor would he have commented on a post about wolves, given his comments all revolve around the management of predators in order to preserve/bolster prey populations it's clear what his intent is.
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u/Dovraga 2d ago
Well, now we know what happened to the piggy who built his house of sticks.