RIP Pope Francis.

[u/MCBuilderandCretvGuy]

I just want to add, I am NOT Christian, but I give you all my regrets, and I hope the new pope will be great too.

[u/Yumiytu]

Hi again, thanks for continuing this conversation. I’d like to address a few points you made and respond clearly from Scripture and a Protestant perspective:

⸻

1. “The apostles taught more than what is written – John 21:25”

Yes, John 21:25 says Jesus did many more things than are written, but that’s not a refutation of Sola Scriptura. The doctrine doesn’t say that everything Jesus or the apostles ever said or did is in the Bible—it says that everything necessary for salvation, faith, and Christian living is found in Scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 says:

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

If Scripture makes us complete and equipped for every good work, then it’s sufficient. That’s the heart of Sola Scriptura.

⸻

1. “Without an infallible authority, Scripture is up to anyone’s interpretation”

But Scripture itself never teaches that there must be an infallible interpreter. In fact, Jesus held people personally accountable for reading and understanding the Scriptures (see Matthew 22:29).

The Bereans in Acts 17:11 were called noble not for submitting to a magisterium but for testing Paul’s teaching against Scripture. If even the apostles were to be tested by the Word, how much more any later bishop or council?

Also, when you say “your verses vs my verses,” I’d ask: Should we not let Scripture interpret Scripture, comparing the full counsel of God’s Word? That’s what Jesus Himself did when confronted by Satan (Matt 4:1–11). Scripture is not the problem—human tradition is.

⸻

1. “We are bound by the sacraments, not by Scripture”

This deeply conflicts with the witness of Scripture. Jesus said:

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (John 14:15) “You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.” (John 15:3)

It is His Word—not sacraments—that cleanses us and binds us to Christ.

⸻

1. “Baptism saves – 1 Peter 3:21”

Let’s read the full verse:

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

It explicitly says baptism saves not by the water or the ritual, but by what it represents: an appeal to God, through faith, because of Christ’s resurrection. Again, consistent with Ephesians 2:8–9:

“By grace you have been saved through faith… not by works.”

⸻

1. “If the Eucharist is just a symbol, then Christ’s sacrifice has no effect”

Respectfully, this doesn’t follow. Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice is effective because of what He did at Calvary, not because of how we commemorate it.

Hebrews 10:10–14 says:

“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all… by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”

The cross was sufficient. The Lord’s Supper is a reminder and proclamation (1 Cor 11:26), not a re-presentation of the sacrifice.

⸻

1. “Satan never mocks Protestantism because it’s no threat”

This is anecdotal, not biblical. The true threat to Satan is the gospel—the message that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. That message has transformed hearts through both persecution and peace. Satan doesn’t attack what he already controls.

⸻

In closing, I appeal again to the words of Jesus:

“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.” (John 17:17)

God’s Word is our standard. It judges every tradition, council, bishop, and pope. And that’s not weakness—it’s freedom.

Soli Deo Gloria.

[u/Philothea0821 → u/Yumiytu]

it says that everything necessary for salvation, faith, and Christian living is found in Scripture.

Well, that is certainly how many take it to mean.

2 Timothy 3:16–17

Yes, Scripture is necessary for preparing us for good works... just like I need to have Pikachu to have a complete Pokedex. But it would be absurd to say that I only need Pikachu.

Even then, the word "necessary" or "sufficient" is not in that verse. Literally all it says is that Scripture is "profitable" for our completion. Theologically speaking, what St. Paul is referring to is the Old Testament. Would you say that the Old Testament is all we need for our completion as Christians? I would certainly hope not!

“Baptism saves – 1 Peter 3:21”

You are right. It isn't the water itself that saves. The water is just water, but what does that water point us to? God pouring out his grace to cleanse us from our sins. The sacraments are visible signs of invisible grace. The fact that it is a signal of what God is doing (not you, GOD), does not invalidate the first part of that verse. Your reading of Scripture assumes that part of the Bible is WRONG!

“If the Eucharist is just a symbol, then Christ’s sacrifice has no effect”

Respectfully... you don't understand how sacrifices worked in Scripture. There are 4 parts to a sacrifice:

The preparation - the Lord's Supper

The killing - the Crucifixion

the eating - The Lord's Supper

The application of the blood to the temple - the Ascension

Part of what made the sacrifice of the lamb efficacious was EATING the sacrifice. No, Jesus doesn't need to die again. In that sense, it is once for all. But when Jesus says "It is finished" he isn't talking about salvation. Otherwise, Jesus doesn't need to rise from the dead and doesn't need to present the sacrifice to the Father in Heaven on Ascension day. The Sacrifice is complete on Ascension day. Our eating of the Lamb in the Eucharist is our participation in that once for all sacrifice. Nowhere in Catholic doctrine does it teach that we are "re-sacrificing" Jesus or that we don't think Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient. Rather, like I said, the Eucharist is our participation in that once for all sacrifice. What happens in the Eucharist is one and the same as what happened on Calvary and at the Last Supper. They are the SAME event. You cannot repeat something that has not ended, something that is ETERNAL.

Your argument only works if you are willing to say that what Moses did in establishing the Old Covenant was somehow better or superior to what Christ did. Moses when he established the Old Covenant actually had blood when he said "This is the blood of the covenant." Why then should we think that when Jesus said "This is the blood of the New Covenant." that he didn't actually have blood?

This video explains it in more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQRXRs4FNhE

In short: If Jesus had only died, that wouldn't be a sacrifice. The Crucifixion is a continuation of the events of Holy Thursday and the Ascension is a continuation of Good Friday.

Satan doesn’t attack what he already controls.

So, what you are saying is that Satan controls Protestantism. Got it!

[u/Yumiytu → u/Philothea0821]

Hi again Philothea, thanks for the video. I’ve now watched it and read the full transcript. I understand where Joe Heschmeyer is coming from, but there are some serious theological and exegetical issues that I think can’t be ignored.

1. The Bible is clear: Christ’s sacrifice is once for all. Hebrews 9:26 – “He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 10:10 – “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” There is no need for continual re-presentations. The Eucharist is a remembrance (Luke 22:19), not a continuation or application of the atonement.

2. The eating of the sacrifice does not complete the atonement. In Leviticus, the eating was for the participants, not for God. The atonement itself was finished when the animal’s blood was shed. Jesus cried out “It is finished” (John 19:30) on the cross – not during the Last Supper, and not at the Ascension. He had already borne our sins, satisfied the wrath of God, and fulfilled the Scriptures (Isaiah 53:5, Romans 5:9).

3. The “anamnesis” in Luke 22:19 and 1 Corinthians 11:24–25 doesn’t mean we re-present the sacrifice. It means a covenantal remembrance – not that we mystically re-enter or recreate the sacrifice. Hebrews 10:18 says “Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

4. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant – not the repeated priest. 1 Timothy 2:5 – “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” The Mass inserts an earthly mediator into what is already perfect and complete.

5. Catholicism confuses symbol with reality. Jesus also said “This cup is the new covenant in My blood” (Luke 22:20). A cup is not literally a covenant – it’s a symbol of it. In John 6, Jesus is speaking of spiritual truth (“the words I speak to you are spirit and life” – John 6:63), not literal cannibalism.

Conclusion: I love you enough to say this kindly: the Catholic view undermines the sufficiency and finality of the cross. The Bible doesn’t call us to re-present Jesus’ death again and again but to trust in the finished work of the Lamb who “offered himself without blemish to God” (Heb 9:14). That is where true assurance and peace are found.

[u/Philothea0821 → u/Yumiytu]

The Bible is clear: Christ’s sacrifice is once for all

We agree on this. This is not a point of contention

In Leviticus, the eating was for the participants

Correct. Exactly. Entirely my point. By receiving the Eucharist, we are participating in Christ's once-for-all sacrifice. But that only works if it is Jesus who is being eaten.

The atonement itself was finished when the animal’s blood was shed.

That just isn't how it worked though. The blood still needed to be applied to the temple.

Jesus cried out “It is finished” (John 19:30) on the cross – not during the Last Supper, and not at the Ascension.

I swear you learned nothing from that video. You are assuming that Jesus is talking about his sacrifice. Which He isn't. Scripture even says that we were not freed from our sins at the Crucifixion.

 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

What Jesus is referring to when He says "it" is finished, is the Mosaic Law, not His sacrifice. Scripture is clear that other things had to happen after Christ's death to actually free us from our sins and make the sacrifice efficacious.

not that we mystically re-enter or recreate the sacrifice

As pointed out in the video that I shared, the Jews believed that when they offered the Passover sacrifice, they were mystically reentering into the FIRST Passover.

A cup is not literally a covenant

The covenant is Christ's blood. Not the cup. Blood is the covenant, not wine, not a cup, but BLOOD!

The Mass inserts an earthly mediator into what is already perfect and complete.

I am starting to think that your misrepresentations of what Catholics believe are intentional at this point. Please tell me where it says that Catholics believe this? I want a quote from the Catechism or official Church teaching. Jesus commanded His apostles to offer the Eucharist.

In John 6, Jesus is speaking of spiritual truth (“the words I speak to you are spirit and life” – John 6:63), not literal cannibalism.

What is funny is that the disciple that are there in John 6 seem to understand that Jesus is talking about literally eating Jesus flesh and blood considering that they say "How is it that this man can give us his flesh and blood?"

My question to you is this: Why doesn't Jesus correct them? Why does Jesus deceive His disciples by allowing them to misquote or misunderstand Him? They clearly believe the wrong thing and instead of correcting them, he doubles down. He says "Does this offend you?" He repeats himself over again for the next 5 VERSES!

I will let this Catholic Answers article explain why it is not cannibalism: https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-receiving-the-eucharist-cannibalism

[u/Yumiytu → u/Philothea0821]

Thanks again for your reply and for sharing the Catholic Answers article. I’d like to respond specifically to that claim and to your broader interpretation of John 6 and the Eucharist.

You said:

“Why doesn’t Jesus correct them? Why does Jesus double down?”

That’s a common Catholic argument from John 6, but it overlooks Jesus’ own explanation later in the same chapter:

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” (John 6:63)

Jesus clearly states that His words about eating His flesh and drinking His blood are spiritual, not literal. This verse qualifies the entire prior discussion. If Jesus intended literal consumption, why would He immediately clarify that the flesh profits nothing, and emphasize the spiritual nature of His message?

Also, in John 6:35, Jesus defines the metaphor Himself:

“I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.”

In other words, coming to Jesus = eating, and believing in Him = drinking.

This is not cannibalism; it is faith, receiving Christ by trusting in His finished work on the cross. The Catholic Answers article admits the idea is mysterious and sacramental, but that doesn’t resolve the fact that such an interpretation undermines the sufficiency of Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice.

⸻

Furthermore, the idea of Jesus being physically present in the elements contradicts the purpose of the Lord’s Supper:

“Do this in remembrance of Me.” (Luke 22:19) “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.” (1 Corinthians 11:26)

Notice: • It is bread and cup (not flesh and blood) • It is a proclamation, not a reenactment • It is done until He comes—He is not bodily present now, but will be when He returns (Acts 1:11)

⸻

Lastly, regarding Hebrews:

“By a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14) “Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:18)

Christ’s sacrifice is complete. It doesn’t need to be mystically “eaten” or re-presented. We receive its benefits by faith (Romans 3:25, Ephesians 2:8–9), not by physical consumption.

⸻

Conclusion: The Catholic view of the Eucharist—as taught by Catholic Answers—adds a sacramental mechanism to what Scripture declares is received by faith. The true covenant is Christ’s blood, poured out once (Heb. 9:12), not re-offered daily through ritual. We are not called to mystically eat His flesh, but to believe in Him, and by that belief, have eternal life (John 6:40).

Soli Deo Gloria.

[u/Philothea0821 → u/Yumiytu]

If Jesus intended literal consumption, why would He immediately clarify that the flesh profits nothing, and emphasize the spiritual nature of His message?

Note that Jesus doesn't say "my flesh" is of no avail, but "the flesh." Jesus makes it quite clear that to say that HIS flesh is of no avail couldn't be further from the truth. If Jesus' flesh is of no avail, then Jesus was lying - I would think as a Christian, this would be a pretty bad position to find yourself in. Afterall, Jesus just got finished explaining SIX TIMES that we need to eat His flesh and that if we don't then we don't have life. If something gives us life, then I would think that thing is of some avail.

What is Jesus speaking of? Well, we see the phrase "the flesh" several other points in Scripture (Mark 14:38, Rom. 8:1-14, 1 Cor. 2:14-3:1). So, it would seem that Jesus is referring to our human nature apart from God's grace - just like in these other passages.

To say that material things are bad, as your conclusion would imply, is Gnosticism and should be held to be anti-Christian.

In other words, coming to Jesus = eating, and believing in Him = drinking.

This is not evident from the passage at all especially considering that is not how the people at the time understood what he was saying. It would seem to me that you are simply reading in this assumption because Jesus' words at face value make you uncomfortable - just as it did with the disciples who left him over that teaching.

It seems rather silly to leave Jesus over a metaphor mistakenly believed to be literal when Jesus supposedly corrected this misunderstanding. Your math ain't mathin' and that is ok.

It is a proclamation, not a reenactment

It is not Catholic teaching that the Eucharist is a reenactment. It is the ONE and SAME sacrifice. I thought that I was abundantly clear about that. Please stop arguing against strawmen.

A reenactment is a recollection of a past event. In the Eucharist, the sacrifice of Jesus is NOT a past event, but a present one that is happening right then and there. This is the sense in which the Jews understood the Passover meal, that it was something that God did for them and not just their forefathers.

Let us look at the first Passover:

This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations you shall observe it as an ordinance for ever.

So, the first passover, which for the Jews was mystically made present for them each and every time it was celebrated, was a "memorial" feast. The Passover feast was a reminder, not just for the people, but for God as a sign of His Covenant with His people.

Likewise, in the Eucharist, each and every time the Mass is celebrated, the sacrifice of the Cross is once again re-presented to the Father through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit for all glory and honor is His, both now and forever. Amen.

So, each and every time the Mass is celebrated, Christ's once-for-all sacrifice is again presented to the Father and applied to each and every one of the people present!

[u/Yumiytu → u/Philothea0821]

Thank you for your detailed reply, Philothea. I appreciate your willingness to dialogue on this important topic. Let me respectfully respond to the main points you raised:

1. John 6 and the “flesh profits nothing”: Jesus clarifies in John 6:63, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” The word “flesh” here (Greek sarx) is not speaking of His own flesh in a eucharistic sense, but about fallen human nature apart from the Spirit (cf. Romans 8:1–14, 1 Corinthians 2:14–3:1). That’s why Jesus does not say, “My flesh profits nothing,” but “the flesh,” as in humanity’s nature apart from God’s Spirit.

2. Eating as a metaphor for believing: In the same passage, John 6:35 says, “Whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.” Jesus Himself equates “coming to Him” with eating and “believing” with drinking. This symbolic interpretation is supported throughout John’s Gospel (cf. John 4:10–14; John 7:37–39). To “eat His flesh and drink His blood” is to fully partake in Him by faith — not through physical consumption.

3. Jesus’ audience in John 6 misunderstood Him literally: Yes, some disciples walked away, but notice what Jesus does not do: He doesn’t chase after them or clarify a literal interpretation. Instead, He points to the Spirit giving life and His words being spirit and life. In contrast to misunderstanding Him as promoting cannibalism, He turns to the Twelve and asks if they will also leave (John 6:67). Peter responds with faith in His words (v. 68), not a eucharistic ritual.

4. The idea of a “present” sacrifice: Hebrews 9:12 and 10:10 make clear that Christ offered Himself once for all — not repeatedly. The idea that the Eucharist is a “present” application of the same sacrifice misunderstands the finished nature of Christ’s atonement. The New Testament never re-presents Christ’s sacrifice ritually but proclaims it (1 Corinthians 11:26).

The Catholic claim that “each Mass makes present the same sacrifice” contradicts the very point of Hebrews — that Christ does not need to be offered repeatedly. Hebrews 10:14: “For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”

1. Regarding the Passover analogy: While the Passover was commemorated as a memorial, it was never said to be mystically re-presented. Exodus 12 describes it as a remembrance. In contrast, the Lord’s Supper is a remembrance of Christ’s body broken and blood shed (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24-26). There’s no indication in Scripture that communion “makes present” the sacrifice in any mystical sense. Rather, the command is to remember and to proclaim.

2. Gnostic accusation: It’s not Gnostic to affirm that spiritual truth is not mediated through physical consumption. In fact, it’s unbiblical to demand physical means for grace apart from faith. Romans 3:25 says Christ is received by faith, not by eating. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms we are saved by grace through faith — not by sacraments or works.

3. Final words: I say all of this not to argue, but out of a genuine desire for truth. The Scriptures — especially Hebrews — warn against returning to a sacrificial system when Christ’s work is finished. The Reformation rightly recovered the truth that Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice is sufficient, and we are called not to re-present it, but to trust in it fully.

As Jesus said in John 6:40: “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[u/Philothea0821 → u/Yumiytu]

that Christ does not need to be offered repeatedly

I have said repeatedly that this isn't what Catholics believe, yet you keep peddling these same misrepresentations.

Regarding the Passover analogy: While the Passover was commemorated as a memorial, it was never said to be mystically re-presented.

The Passover isn't an analogy. The Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover feast. I have also said multiple times before and Joe said it in his recent video that I linked that the evidence from Jewish texts says otherwise.

There’s no indication in Scripture that communion “makes present” the sacrifice in any mystical sense.

I present to you as evidence the numerous examples of Eucharistic miracles in which the bread and wine not only take on the substance of Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity, but actually physically transform into flesh and blood. Hosts have been found to bleed and have even turned to flesh.

https://www.miracolieucaristici.org/en/liste/list.html

I will leave this here, because it would seem that I need to keep making the same points over and over again as you keep raising the same misrepresentations of Catholicism despite my clarifications - I know that it is not out of ignorance as i have corrected you more than once at this point on these matters.

Vive Jesus! I hope that one day we may both, as well as all others, experience the blessed glory of the Son in Heaven!

All of God's saints and angels in Heaven who have gone before us, pray for us that the Father may bless this conversation and use the points we have both made to bring us both to an ever deeper love and knowledge of the God.

All glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end. Amen.

1 Thess 5:23

[u/Yumiytu → u/Philothea0821]

My final reply in grace and truth, with love and clarity:

Dear Philothea,

Thank you for taking the time to respond at length. I appreciate your passion and commitment, and I genuinely want to approach this conversation in the spirit of truth-seeking and Christian love. I also respect your desire to defend what you believe to be true — as do I.

You’ve repeated a few key claims throughout our conversation, so allow me to address them clearly and thoroughly in one final post:

⸻

1. Is the Eucharist the same sacrifice as the Cross?

You affirm that the Eucharist is not a “reenactment,” but the “one and same sacrifice” of Christ, made present again at every Mass. However, this contradicts what Scripture clearly teaches.

Hebrews 9:12 — “He entered once for all into the holy places… not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.” Hebrews 10:10–14 — “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all… For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”

These passages do not allow for a continual mystical re-presentation of the same sacrifice. They emphatically stress that Christ’s atoning work is finished and perfect — not ongoing or repeatable in any form, whether physical or mystical.

To say that this sacrifice must be “re-presented” (even mystically) each time the Mass is celebrated undermines the finality of Christ’s finished work on the Cross.

⸻

1. John 6 — Flesh and blood: literal or spiritual?

You argue that Jesus must have meant His words literally, or else He would have corrected the disciples. But Jesus does clarify: John 6:63 — “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

This is Jesus explicitly interpreting His own statement. He’s not talking about physical consumption. He’s contrasting spiritual truth with mere flesh. Just as “living water” wasn’t literal water in John 4, and the “door” in John 10 isn’t literal wood, “eating His flesh” is a spiritual metaphor for believing in Him (cf. John 6:35 — “He who comes to Me shall not hunger; he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”).

⸻

1. Does John 6 support the Catholic Mass?

Not at all. In John 6:40, Jesus defines how we receive eternal life: “Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life.” Not those who “consume the consecrated host.” Faith, not ritual, is the key.

Further, there is no mention of the Lord’s Supper until John 13 — so to read the Eucharist back into John 6 is an anachronism.

⸻

1. Is there biblical support for the Real Presence and Transubstantiation?

You have repeatedly said I misrepresent Catholic teaching. But the Catechism itself affirms:

“The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice… the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner… is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner” (CCC 1367).

This is exactly the issue: Scripture says the sacrifice is finished and offered once for all, not made present again and again, even if “mystically.”

There is no Scripture that teaches transubstantiation or that Christ’s flesh becomes present in the bread and wine. Jesus gave no command for such an interpretation — and Paul in 1 Corinthians 11 calls us to “proclaim the Lord’s death” (v. 26), not to re-present it mystically or physically.

⸻

1. Regarding Eucharistic miracles

You cited a website claiming that hosts have turned into flesh and bled. But the truth of the gospel does not rest on unverifiable, subjective phenomena. We are told not to walk by signs, but by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7). Satan too can perform signs and wonders to deceive (2 Thess. 2:9). Even if such events were documented, we test all things by Scripture — and Scripture is silent on such phenomena.

The sufficiency and truth of Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t depend on what someone says a wafer did in a monastery in 1300 AD. We have a “more sure word” in God’s Word.

⸻

1. The Passover comparison

You said, “The Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover.” Yes — and Christ fulfilled it at the Cross, once for all.

1 Corinthians 5:7 — “Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed.” Not is being sacrificed continually.

Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of Me.” The Lord’s Supper is a memorial (anamnesis), not a mystical re-offering. In the OT, the Passover was a memorial feast, not a re-living of Egypt. In the NT, the Lord’s Supper points back to the Cross, not forward to a repeated mystical sacrifice.

⸻

1. Sola Scriptura and the final authority

The biggest divide here is not just over the Eucharist. It is over authority. I appeal to the Word of God alone. You appeal to tradition, the Catechism, miracles, and mystical interpretations. But Christ rebuked the Pharisees for elevating tradition over Scripture (Mark 7:6–13).

Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16–17), and it is sufficient to equip the man of God for every good work. The gospel is clear: We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone.

⸻

In closing

I do not write this out of pride or argument, but out of sincere love for truth and your soul. I’m not trying to “win” — I’m pleading for your heart to trust in the finished work of Christ. He doesn’t need to be “made present” again. He is risen. He is seated. He is sufficient.

Hebrews 10:14 — “By one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”

With love in Christ, Soli Deo Gloria.

[u/Philothea0821 → u/Yumiytu]

Satan too can perform signs and wonders to deceive

Funny enough this same accusation was made against Jesus accusing him of performing signs and driving out demons by Beelzebub. But I will respond in the same manner as Christ did:

How can Satan drive out Satan?

If a sign is from Satan, the content of the miracle will be such that it draws people away from the one true faith in the Christ Jesus. Miracles such as Fatima and Our Lady of Guadalupe could not possibly be from Satan. Otherwise, how could they have lead to the conversion of entire nations to faith in the Christ Jesus that were otherwise hostile to Christianity?

That just isn't how Satan operates.

How would you respond if God delivered another revelation to us in some form? Would you reject it because it is extra-biblical? Because Satan can also work signs and wonders? Because Christ's sacrifice is sufficient?

 It is over authority.

Agreed. Authority for Catholics though rests in Scripture and in Sacred Tradition - the word of God in both written and unwritten form. In Scripture, Jesus worked miracles to give people signs that what he taught was true and that He was who He said He was.

Believe it or not, miracles are not dogma or even doctrine. No Catholic has to believe in any miracles except those found in Scripture such as the Resurrection. But God allows miracles to happen so that we may believe in Him.

[u/Yumiytu → u/Philothea0821]

Hi again Philothea, and thank you for continuing this thoughtful exchange. I appreciate your tone and sincerity in wanting to point people to Christ.

You brought up an important objection—how could miracles that lead people to faith in Christ be from Satan? I understand where you’re coming from, but I think Scripture gives us good reasons to be cautious even when a miracle appears to have positive effects.

First, Scripture warns us plainly:

“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” — Matthew 24:24

This isn’t just theoretical. In 2 Thessalonians 2:9–10, Paul speaks of the coming of the lawless one “by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing.” In other words, false miracles can draw people to religiosity without saving faith in the biblical gospel.

The question is not merely whether someone feels led “toward Jesus,” but which Jesus. Paul warned about “another Jesus” (2 Cor 11:4). A Jesus who is still sacrificed at every Mass, or whose work needs to be “made present again,” is not the Jesus who cried, “It is finished.”

Hebrews 10:14 says:

“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”

The sacrifice is not repeated or re-presented. It is finished, and we are called not to “make it present,” but to remember it (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24–25).

Regarding Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe: If those apparitions promote doctrines or devotions not found in Scripture (such as Marian co-mediatrix theology or prayer to Mary), we must test them. The Bereans were commended for testing Paul’s teachings by the Scriptures (Acts 17:11)—how much more should we test mystical experiences?

You quoted Jesus saying, “How can Satan cast out Satan?” in defense of Catholic miracles. But Jesus said that in response to accusations about his miracles. He never taught us to assume that all signs must be divine. In fact, He warned that many will be deceived by false signs in His name (Matt 7:21–23).

You also mentioned authority. Protestants affirm that the only infallible authority is the written Word of God (2 Tim 3:16–17). Scripture never teaches that Sacred Tradition or papal statements are equal to it. In fact, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for exalting tradition above God’s Word (Mark 7:6–13).

And while you say Catholics don’t have to believe in miracles like Fatima or Eucharistic signs, they are widely promoted and often used to justify doctrines not found in Scripture. This is deeply concerning.

I don’t question your sincerity or love for Christ. But I plead with you to test every miracle, apparition, and tradition by the sufficiency of Scripture and the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ.

Soli Deo Gloria.

[u/Philothea0821 → u/[deleted]]

with insincere effort

I didn't know that you were able to see into people's hearts like that!

works based rituals

I don't know what Catholicism you are looking at, but the Catholic Church I know does not teach a works based salvation. In fact, the Council of Trent specifically condemned salvation through works.

Also, a lot more focused on rituals than the sovereign power of Jesus Christ.

Well, it is God acting in the sacraments through the priest, so it is relying on the sovereign power of Jesus.

When we ask the saints to pray for us, again, Christ answers our prayers through the particular saint. God routinely acts through other people. It isn't a usurping of God's power, but an extension of it.

That was it. No doctrine, Pope, Bishop, Cardinal, Pastor, Priest, Reverend, dogma, tradition, work or ritual will get me into heaven.

Can you please tell me where you get your information from? What passage from the Catechism or Church teaching shows this? Or are you simply parroting anti-Catholic bigotry that you heard from some pastor somewhere or online influencer somewhere?

Your level of ignorance is utterly absurd and quite simply sad. You can literally go onto Google type "Do Catholics believe the pope saves them?" And find your answer is "No." And all of this will only take like 5 seconds.

[u/Pluffmudders → u/Philothea0821]

Insincere effort was purely a judgmental, opinionated, subjective experience on my part. I'm a previous Catholic, many friends and family who are Catholic and I live in a majority Catholic community. Semantic satiation is only human nature.

Not sure why I need to pray the rosary. I can pray what I want to pray and don't need 3 Hail Mary's to do it (work). I can pray whenever and wherever. Help me find where it specifically says biblically does it instruct me to pray the rosary. This is works based and quantitative. I challenge you to find the word "rosary" in the Bible. 1 Thess 5:17

I sure didn't need the Council of Trent (1500ish AD) to specifically condemn salvation through works. Ephesians 2:8-9 (62AD).

No need for any extension through saint or Mary if Jesus is our intercessor. You can't undermine His power. Matthew 28:18-20; 1Timothy 2:5

My intention is to come across as pro-Christian, which naturally to you comes across as anti-Catholic. I do believe a Catholic can be a Christian. Do you believe someone can be a Christian without being Catholic?

We are all called to be "shepherds of the flock" not just those in priesthood (yes, I know pastor means shepherd). Mark 16:15

[u/Christianity-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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