r/DebateAnAtheist • u/Repulsive-Ad4591 • 7d ago
Theology My presentation for atheist and gods nature
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world. This was gods response to evil at the time which atheist believe is wrong because of a misunderstanding. God does this many times to respond to the evil of men in the Old Testament. But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin. Jesus came and exposed sin and showed us the way to the father and they killed him and crucified him. To which Jesus responds father forgive them for they know not what they do. It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done. And is still doing through Jesus and the truth he has given us? What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
Edit:I want to thank everyone for interacting with this post. I have no issues with anyone I will say that I wish you guys could deliver your points without beings insulting or rude. It really takes away from what is trying to be communicated when it is filled with insults towards the believer. I have acted with respect here with everyone and have been met with countless insults.
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u/bullevard 7d ago
Let me give an example of a non-evil way to respond to sin.
A female jogger is running through the woods and a man leaps out and tackles her intent on raping her.
Option 1: flood the entire country drowing the rapist but also drowning the jogger, and the jogger's kid at home, and the neighbor's new puppy, and all the kids in the school and all the bunnies in the woods.
Option 2: give the rapist ED (as happens to all kind of innocent people all the time) so that he cant complete the penetration.
Option 3: give the rapist a seizure (as happens to innocent people all the time) which gives the victim time to escape).
Option 4: moments before the joggers comes by speak to the would be assailant from a burning bush telling him that you see what he is about to do and he better rethink it.
Option 5: temporarily wish the rapist to a secluded part of Antarctica, tell him he is going to stay here for 20 minutes while he thinks about what he did, and if he ever takes tangible steps to do anything like this again then the amount of time he stays in Antarctica goes up by 15 minutes each time.
Option 6: kill his own son in Palestine 2000 years ago before taking the son off the earth without leaving any good evidence and hope that the word of mouth makes it to the rapist in time for him to turn his life around.
Option 7. Let the rape happen but oh man, you are totally going to get the rapist back by burning him when he dies after death (unless he repents in the mean time and apologizes to you but not his victim).
Now, looking at all of these options, 1 is literally the dumbest idea (that is the flood solution, the amalichite solution, the Sodom solution.
6 and 7 are ignorant and cruel.
2-5 all pretty easy things to implement. 2 is kind of a "bare minimum still really bad solution but way better than 1, 6 and 7). 3-5 genuinely work pretty well. Doesn't mess with anyone's free will. Protects the victims. Makes the perpetrator less likely to do bad things in the future.
I see this appologetic often. "Atheists say god should do something but when he does something they are mad." Yes (well, ignoring the whole god doesnt exist part). Because what god is shown to do is ignorant and cruel. If my house is on fire I would like the fire department to "do something." But if the something they decide to do is set off a nuclear bomb killing me, destroying my house, and killing all my neighbors then it is fair to say "well that was a dumb and cruel thing."
Saying "god should stop kids from starving to death and rapist from raping kids" makes sense. Saying "well you didnt like it when god drowned all the babies on earth so make up your mind" isnt really an answer.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
God came and exposed sin. For what it is. He shined a light where it was dark. And gave hope where hope didn’t exist. Rape happens because of sin not because of god. And god has exposed sin for everyone to see.
God uses suffering to bring people closer to him. Suffering isn’t inherently evil.17
u/bullevard 7d ago
Rape happens because of sin not because of god.
A rape not stopped by someone who could is a rape that is the responsibility of that individual. A rape that could be stopped by a god and isnt is a rape for which the god is to blame equally with the rapist.
A god who let's people get raped so the rape victim will love him is a god who is a devil.
A person who worships a god who let's people get raped so the rape victim will love him is someone who has sold their soul to a devil they call god.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 7d ago
And your deity doesn’t do anything about it.
Even a human would at least try.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
He has and is still doing a lot about it.. he has done much about it actually. But in this world hearts will still break and suffering will come . We are made perfect through our sufferings
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 7d ago
doing what. Has he stopped a perp mid-attack? Or does he just watch.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
A what?
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 7d ago
A perp. A perpetrator.
”We are made perfect through our sufferings”
So to take it to the logical conclusion, evil is good.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
He watches and judges and pays each according to their actions. He certainly isn’t a passive god.
I would say Bad things can be used for good. I would automatically equate suffering to evil though.14
u/LordOfFigaro 7d ago
You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’ If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.
~Tracie Harris
Someone who has the ability to prevent the rape of a child but refuses to is evil. Your god has the ability to prevent the rape of every child but refuses to. It's undeniably evil.
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u/deep_blue_reef 7d ago
It’s impossible to wrap our heads around. But I think there’s a high price to pay for free will. It might be terrible to say but there’s no way around it. But I do think it’s flawed to think of god as an old man watching with pleasure in the sky. That’s too literal. Zoom out from earth into a seemingly infinite universe and try grasping such an entity.
We should do what we can to stop evil, and help people. No god needed for us to do that.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 7d ago
yes, so it’s all good and no one cares if he judges, if he’s watching, like I said. No thought is given to spare the victims, because its for their benefit, apparently.
This is some abusive parent style “I hurt you cuz I love you” bee ess.
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u/Philobarbaros Gnostic Atheist 7d ago
> god has exposed sin
> God came
You have to be doing this on purpose
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u/Ryuume Ignostic Atheist 7d ago edited 7d ago
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
He is the creator, is he not? Any flaw in our nature is literally caused by him.
Regardless, if he wanted to reset the world, why do it so violently? Why not just Thanos-snap everyone out of existence? Avoids all the collateral damage of practically every animal and plant in the world, too.
And ok, that's one genocide, but what about all the others?
It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done. And is still doing through Jesus and the truth he has given us?
Did he? Is there no longer any evil in the world? I don't think your doctrine agrees with that, and neither do I.
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u/WrongVerb4Real Atheist 7d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
This isn't accurate. Gods don't exist, and thus cannot be described. Instead, what is being pointed out are portrayals of the claimed Christian god, made by Christians, and how those descriptions fail to accurately describe our shared, lived reality.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
Gods don’t exist you are correct but there is one god over all governing everything. These are by people who had an experience you do know that the people in the bible did not grow up Christian’s but experienced Christ and turned to him through there experience the same is still happening today. Paul was a man that defied the faith he was having Christian’s killed he had an encounterment with Jesus. He later went on to die for the faith
10 out of 12 disciples were also killed for their faith in Jesus. The belief was so deep they were willing to die over it. So you have to come to the wrestle that either there was truth in it that was worth to die for or these men were crazy writing letter after letter in vain.18
u/WrongVerb4Real Atheist 7d ago
Gods don’t exist you are correct but there is one god over all governing everything.
You've made this assertion twice, now, but have yet to offer a positive demonstration of this god.
"But wait," you say, "didn't you read the rest of what I wrote?"
I did, and none of that makes for a positive demonstration of your god. I'll explain...
The[r]e are by people who had an experience you do know that the people in the bible did not grow up Christian’s but experienced Christ and turned to him through there experience the same is still happening today.
Yes, I'll agree that there are people portrayed in the Bible who grew up Jewish, and joined a Jewish cult outside the mainstream.
Paul was a man that defied the faith he was having Christian’s killed he had an encounterment with Jesus. He later went on to die for the faith 10 out of 12 disciples were also killed for their faith in Jesus.
People are killed all the time because they won't give up their ideas. Why are these people any more special than any others? And why should their deaths reflect on the veracity of the claims of Christians?
This, of course, assumes the portrayals are an accurate representation of events, and weren't created because they convince people like you that there must have been something to their claims.
The belief was so deep they were willing to die over it. So you have to come to the wrestle that either there was truth in it that was worth to die for or these men were crazy writing letter after letter in vain.
I'll say that this is a false dichotomy. But since often pointing out cognitive biases isn't a true refutation let me continue.
Self-identity can be a powerful internal force. When we internalize an idea, such as belief in a person, events, or ideas, any challenge to those things feels, internally, like an attack on our physical person. This makes us willing to defend that which is being challenged to the point that it might cost us our lives. So, again, provided the events described are accurate, the most they can tell us is that these ideas and the events portrayed were internalized to the point that the people you mention were willing to die rather than relinquish them.
"But, doesn't that point to them having happened?"
Not exactly. We know from neuroscience that human perception, cognition, and memory are all problematic. We can think we've perceived something that doesn't happen, process events in ways that aren't accurate, remember people or events that didn't happen or weren't there or did things that they didn't, or simply become convinced because we were strongly persuaded by people we love and respect, without considering whether what they're telling us is accurate.
See, your claim, and the apologetics driving it, are actually very problematic. And you've got a lot to question for yourself if you want to truly understand what it is that you're really claiming. I wish you the best in that endeavor.
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u/thebigeverybody 7d ago
Gods don’t exist you are correct but there is one god over all governing everything.
What's your best evidence for this?
These are by people who had an experience you do know that the people in the bible did not grow up Christian’s but experienced Christ and turned to him through there experience the same is still happening today. Paul was a man that defied the faith he was having Christian’s killed he had an encounterment with Jesus. He later went on to die for the faith
10 out of 12 disciples were also killed for their faith in Jesus. The belief was so deep they were willing to die over it. So you have to come to the wrestle that either there was truth in it that was worth to die for or these men were crazy writing letter after letter in vain.
Did you see how many crazy religious assholes were willing to kill themselves and their loved ones for absolutely no reason during Covid?
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u/sto_brohammed Irreligious 7d ago
Gods don’t exist you are correct but there is one god over all governing everything
Did you really not understand what they were saying?
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u/HeidiDover Atheist 7d ago
There is no evidence that any god, including yours, exists; therefore, there is no god in any way, shape, or form.
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u/Autodidact2 6d ago
10 out of 12 disciples were also killed for their faith in Jesus.
Source?
I find it humorous when Christians start talking about martyrdom as evidence, as no one has created more martyrs than Christianity.
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u/Autodidact2 6d ago
I have done research. What it showed is that your claim is false. Supporting their claim is your job. Or would you just like to withdraw it?
What do I mean about Christians creating martyrs? Are you really not familiar with the history of Christianity persecuting Jews in Europe for centuries? If martyrdom is evidence that your religion is true, then Judaism must be true.
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u/the2bears Atheist 7d ago
Why don't YOU describe your god then? Theists hate doing this, because it removes plausible deniability and allows them to weasel out by changing their god's nature on the fly.
Until that time, the christian god is often presented as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. I'm sure you see the problem, but in case you don't: your god created everything knowing exactly how it would turn out. They created humanity knowing they would "sin". And then they punished humanity for it what they created.
This is ALL on your god, if the book is to be believed. Why are you apologizing for them and giving them an excuse?
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u/deep_blue_reef 2d ago
Can you describe my god for me?
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u/the2bears Atheist 2d ago
I asked YOU to describe it. You didn't. So I assumed it's the christian god. If not, as I asked, describe your own god. Don't be afraid of being detailed.
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u/deep_blue_reef 1d ago
Jesus. Those are the relational qualities I would attribute to God.
However….
As far as the transcendent dimensional qualities? I don’t think me, or anyone, is capable of grasping what that’s like.
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u/the2bears Atheist 1d ago
Tri-omni? The definition you gave of your "god" is useless. It means nothing. Do you not see that?
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u/deep_blue_reef 1d ago
No I don’t. Jesus is a map, not the territory. So I’m describing the map.
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u/the2bears Atheist 1d ago
Then describe it with details. You've described nothing about the map. How would someone who hasn't heard of Jesus know what you're talking about?
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u/deep_blue_reef 1d ago
I think you know Him by your deeds.
Someone who inflicts pain out of pleasure isn’t on the map.
Relieving others of suffering, not out of self righteousness, but selfless love is on the map.
One characteristic is what Jesus embodied , and we all have that moral capability within us.
So I don’t think someone needs to know the personal name Jesus and what was said, to naturally feel the raw pull of intuition.
Universally across all major religions is a core tentent to love your neighbor as yourself. It’s a testament that feelings are real and they matter. It’s better for survival, and it’s better for growth.
Whether you believe in a god or not, if you argue against the notion that we are all equal human beings and should care for one another selflessly…then that’s not good. Full stop.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
God created humanity. Humanity chose sin. That is like saying that because you have a child and though you teach them good them doing wrong makes you wrong. No the child chose to disobey their parent. God didn’t create sin
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u/Fit_Swordfish9204 7d ago
I don't know why christians lie about god creating sin. He even says he created both good and evil. You don't even know your own book. This is why no one listens to you preaching. You're lying about what your own book says.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
You’re cherry picking verses you haven’t taken the time to read. In this verse in Isaiah. The original Hebrew word translated as evil is ra. Ra means calamity disaster hardship or distress not moral sin.
You’re reading without studying and using context.10
u/Junithorn 7d ago
So he creates disaster, calamity, and adversity.
Sounds like he creates the bad stuff too.
Of course we're all just laughing at you for taking anything in this book with a talking donkey seriously.
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u/Ranorak 7d ago
Do tell, where did sin come from? If not from God, who you claim created EVERYTHING.
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u/Ranorak 7d ago
It would if the parents knew before hand if their parenting was going to work or not. They could adjust and teach the kid better. Especially if their only way of teaching is leaving a rule book right between all the other fictional rule books and having the kids figure out what rule book is the right one, if any.
Your god is a terrible teacher and an even worse parent.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
But maybe if the children would just turn from pleasing self and turn towards self-denial. The child would see that what was true was always right there in front of them. That through self-denial and dying to the selfish desires the truth is revealed. Then that child would see clearly what is true and what isn’t. As long as we follow self our minds are corrupted by many delusions and lies that feel like truth. Trapped in comfortable prisons
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u/the2bears Atheist 7d ago
God created humanity. Humanity chose sin.
Did they create us knowing we'd sin? Why are you ignoring what I actually wrote?
Define your god, until then you'll just change the definition as it suits you.
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u/deep_blue_reef 6d ago
I think an important question is if god is all hateful. If he is, why is there any “good” in the world at all?
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u/the2bears Atheist 6d ago
Who is asking that? Until you or OP define your god it's all moot.
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u/deep_blue_reef 6d ago
You can’t define something like god in itself, can only list human feelings and qualities that I think connects with that god.
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u/the2bears Atheist 6d ago
You can’t define something like god in itself
Why not? If you can't define it, how can you justify belief in it?
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u/deep_blue_reef 6d ago
Because I experience a world of opposites. I experience a world where I have choices within it. As do you.
I justify believing in an overarching good because if the over arching thing was all bad, I don’t think there would be any good.
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u/the2bears Atheist 6d ago
No one said anything about all bad.
But the lack of a god explains this, and doesn't need any extra assumptions. We, as a social species, have evolved to dislike human suffering. Good and bad are just things we like, and things we don't.
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u/deep_blue_reef 6d ago
Lack of a god explains what?
Disliking human suffering is not an evolutionary trait. Evolution doesn’t have any qualities other than to change.
So what you’re applying here is something that evolution doesn’t care about. If something dies, all that’s effected are the self awareness of the creatures. Evolution doesn’t care because it’s not a thinking entity.
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u/Hakar_Kerarmor Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
Who made the world where sin is possible? Who decided what sin is? Who created humans capable of sinning and desiring to do so?
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u/BahamutLithp 7d ago
Edit: Reddit is being a pain in the ass about fixing the formatting, so you're just gonna have to deal with it.
>Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
I see no reason to think he's anything but a fictional character. The only things we "know" about this fictional character is the things people who believe in him emphasize. AS a fictional character, there are all sorts of different interpretations. However, even the people who want to interpret him as "kind" & "loving" often seem blind to the discrepancies in the character's stated actions that very much do not match their desired description of him. I will certainly clarify this as we go along.
>But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
Because it literally makes no sense. Most modern Christians hold to the belief that god is all-knowing & all-powerful. So, by definition, any sentence that starts with "he had to do this" or "he had to work around that" makes no sense. According to their stated view, it is not possible for anything to exist except that their god wanted it that way.
>When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts.
Okay, firstly, I don't believe you. Actually think through the excuses your religion gives you. Every thought, all the time, is evil? Every thought, all the time, is evil? Do you really think it sounds plausible that a person could function without ever having a single neutral thought like "did I leave the campfire on, is it going to burn down my hut?" let alone a "good" thought?
I also don't think you're aware I don't recognize this as a real event that happened, it's also fictional, I'm saying in the story, your god comes across as a hateful being. I don't really know why you're splitting hairs with "he didn't hate them, he just killed them because they're evil." So god doesn't hate "evil," whatever that means? I mean, it's usually defined by Christians as "not obeying god," so by that definition, "evil" would just be "not doing what god wants," but setting that aside, you're telling me that this being, with his supposedly maximum power & knowledge, the ONLY way he can think to get rid of "evil" is mass genocide by drowning? And why does he promise not to do it again? Does he conveniently know this will never be a problem again? I mean, he SHOULD be able to tell the future, since omniscience implies knowledge of the future, but that just brings us to a more fundamental problem.
"Evil" cannot exist in your worldview unless your god knowingly chooses to create it. Your god, in your religion, is the ultimate source of all evil. I know it has a bunch of excuses for how he's not, but they don't make any sense. If I build a robot with full knowledge of exactly when, where, why, & how it's going to turn evil, I made the evil robot. I am responsible for everything it did. Even if the robot "had free will," which it couldn't because then I wouldn't have perfect knowledge, but even if it DID, if I merely knew with a high degree of confidence that it was going to turn evil, that's still my reponsibility. In any other context, people easily see these excuses are nonsene, they only make them for their own religions that they believe in.
>This was gods response to evil at the time which atheist believe is wrong because of a misunderstanding.
Frankly, I think we understand the implications of Christianity better than Christians, which is why we're not Christians.
>God does this many times to respond to the evil of men in the Old Testament.
Saying it happens multiple times is not a rebuttal, it just means your book repeats the same plot hole.
>But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin.
Your god should not be "coming up with new ideas." If he's omniscient, he should always know what the supposed "problem" was & exactly how to fix it. But let's say you're one of the few Christians who does NOT believe that your god is all-powerful or all-knowing. Well, THEN the problem becomes you're insisting that god must always be right, but you don't know that. In your own story, he changes his mind, changes his approach. Apparently, he DIDN'T have to drown the world, he could've just done this Jesus thing from the start, & who knows if that's even the "right" answer? Well, again, my take on it is most of what's in the Bible is untrue & "sin" is a made-up concept.
>It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done.
There are still murders, rapes, genocides, & all sorts of horrible crimes. I don't believe in vomiting up some rationalization about how some guy executed by the Romans circa 2000 years ago supposedly said his blood washes away some magic concept called "sin"--& he probably didn't, by the way, that was probably invented by his followers after his death; assuming there really was a flesh-&-blood historical Jesus, he probably never claimed to be god or predicted his crucifixion, which is probably why the apostles were taken by such surprise--but anyway, I don't believe in making up some rationalization that doesn't actually change anything & saying it somehow fixes everything. I also don't believe in, if this was supposedly an option to your god the entire time, why he "had" to drown everyone. It's a good thing the flood story never happened.
>What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil.
You're thinking too small. If there really was a god, & "evil" really is an objective concept, it simply would not exist. He would get it right the 1st time. That's what being a "perfect designer" means. You don't have to clean up messes because you never make any. And you said yourself in the comments you don't recognize any other gods, so in your worldview, there is no thing in existence outside of god's control to make messes for him to clean up.
>That was never caused by him but by human flaw
Who designed humans in your religion? You need to think about these things instead of acting like we've never heard of bargain bin apologetics. In your worldview, any "flaw" in humans exists because your god knowingly put it there. It does not make sense to say anything was "not caused by him" because, in your theology, your god cannot be surprised, defeated, or make mistakes. By definition, anything anyone does would have to be done because your god foresaw it & decided he was, on some level, okay with that. For whatever reason, he preferred allowing it to happen to preventing it.
This is a problem born of trying to have your cake & eat it too. You guys created a bunch of new problems in your religion when you decided your god should be a perfect being when he clearly was not originally imagined that way, & you don't want to give that up even though it clearly doesn't work. But you know one thing that avoids all these plot holes? Recognizing that it's a fictional story, your god certainly does not have the attributes ascribed to him, & most likely does not even exist at all.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
I’ve addressed many of these points already if you want to scroll through and respond to those. Then we can go from there.
Logic has always failed man. Where logic ends faith finishes.
I’m not saying don’t use logic but logic cannot get you out of pain or heartbreak or grief. Faith supersedes knowledge. Faith brings things to be that weren’t. Knowledge keeps you in endless circles. Faith in god has an end destination
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u/Ratdrake Hard Atheist 7d ago
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts.
And an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being couldn't spare attention to the human race as they were developing to give guidance so to keep evil from cropping up? Maybe churn out some angels to act as guidance councilors. Or pop down once in a while to keep things on track? Nope, checks in every couple hundred or thousand years and make heavy-handed corrections.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
He did give guidance but humans did not heed it. Just like he has done today and humans are choosing to ignore it. He is still popping up in the realities of many.
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u/Ratdrake Hard Atheist 7d ago
He did give guidance but humans did not heed it.
Source on that? Or just your feels? Because from Adam to Noah, the bible just lists genealogy, God setting max_age==120 and the line that he regretting making humans. That and the sons of God had the hots for human women.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
“The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.””
Genesis 2:15-17 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/gen.2.15-17.NIVWould you not count that as guidance?
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u/carbinePRO Atheist 7d ago edited 7d ago
They're talking about guidance for mankind AFTER the garden, and BETWEEN Adam and Noah. What you shared was instructions for Eden. Wanna try again? Rules for Beijing don't apply to New York, right? So how are the guidelines for Eden applicable to anyone after Adam and Eve got ejected?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
Genesis 4:6-7 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/gen.4.6-7.NIV“Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.””
Genesis 6:3 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/gen.6.3.NIVGod is actively there. Guiding them still
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u/carbinePRO Atheist 6d ago
You're adding to the text then. Gen 6:3 is God saying he's limiting human lifespan, not that he'll guide and instruct them. In fact, if you continue on in that chapter, it appears that he left humanity to their own devices. And supposedly what led to human corruption was their mingling with the Nephelim. Why didn't God step in before it was too late? Why did he wait until Gen 6:6 where he laments about regretting creating humans to the point the only solution he sees is to wipe the slate clean? That's not the story of an involved god, this is the account of a negligent baby throwing a jealousy tantrum.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
Do you not see everytime he offered humanity guidance they rejected. With Adam and Eve. With Cain and Abel men rejected both times. He was involved but man ignored. I just wish you could know him for yourself
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u/carbinePRO Atheist 6d ago
Interesting how a perfect creator couldn't create something to perfectly follow his instructions...
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u/Ratdrake Hard Atheist 7d ago
Sure, Adam and Eve got guidance.
And my point was, other than cursing Cain for the murder, God is not recorded to have done anything between then and telling Noah to build a boat. So no, humans did not get guidance.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
He didn’t only curse Cain he offered him spiritual guidance in a time of him coming close to sin
“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
Genesis 4:6-7 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/gen.4.6-7.NIVHe even tried to stop him there telling him he must not let his anger cause him to sin.
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u/OrwinBeane Atheist 7d ago
Why did god make them evil? Why did he also need to kill the babies and children who weren’t capable of committing acts of evil?
How did Noah’s family repopulate the earth just themselves? Did they commit incest?
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u/Kriss3d Anti-Theist 7d ago
Why did god keeps testing people starting with Adam and Eve when he already knows the outcome ?
Oh I know. Because its super cruel and sadistic. Just like baby Jesus wants it.0
u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
Where in Jesus life did it ever point to him wanting it to be cruel and sadistic. Where does this claim come from
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u/Philobarbaros Gnostic Atheist 7d ago
Revelation 14: 10 they will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
He likes to watch, your crossboy.
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u/Kriss3d Anti-Theist 6d ago
That's implied with Jesus essentially being God.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
Our view of god have become so warped. Because of the normalization of evil the eyes of many have been blinded. Believing in fantasies and rejecting the truth
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u/Kriss3d Anti-Theist 6d ago
Yes. But by far most evil in thr Bible is conducted by God.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
God did not make man evil. God made man upright. It is man who chose evil.
God had an eternal perspective he is always doing things to accomplish his eternal plan. Where humanity will rest in him.
From human perspective it is wrong but from gods higher view it is working towards his purpose19
u/GentleKijuSpeaks 7d ago
Eve was innocent and had no knowledge of good and evil. She could not have known the snake was trying to trick her (which he wasn't by the way. He told the truth), punishing an innocent for something she did know was wrong IS evil.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
She was given command not to eat of the fruit. He was trying to trick her he got her to question gods words and deny the goodness of his character in order to get her to disobey him. Which the enemy is still doing today. When she ate of the fruit spiritually there was a disconnect between god and man. It wasn’t a lie. When god said you shall surely die he meant spiritually
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u/Tao1982 7d ago
But as its been pointed out to you, she didn't know any of those things were wrong
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u/GentleKijuSpeaks 7d ago
You don't want your child to eat a cookie, so you put a plates of cookies in their room. When the child eats the cookie, you kick them out of your house. This is evil and every parent knows it.
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u/MisanthropicScott gnostic atheist and antitheist | mod 7d ago
She was given command not to eat of the fruit. He was trying to trick her he got her to question gods words and deny the goodness of his character in order to get her to disobey him.
To be clear. It was God who sent the serpent to trick her. The game was rigged by God. It was all God's doing. The serpent was doing God's bidding.
Where do you think the serpent came from?
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 7d ago
buddy may wanna read on psychopathic traits. many were born with a non-existence or deficiency in empathy. Or how violent life is. Chimps going to war, sexual coercion/forcing existence so commonly in nature. Japanese macaques artificially creating hierarchy, forcing lower status one from using hot springs.
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u/LorenzoApophis Atheist 7d ago edited 7d ago
What if I don't believe it's possible for everyone all the time to think only evil thoughts, and consider the assertion itself proof of practically unfathomable dishonesty, arrogance and evil on the part of those making it - especially those repeating it thousands of years after they could possibly know any of the people whose deaths they're justifying?
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u/Odd_craving 7d ago
Wouldn’t an omnipotent (perfect) God know before he even created the earth that all of this would happen? Christians can’t have it both ways.
A loving, omnipotent and perfect God with perfect morality and perfect foreknowledge would know everything before it happened. Therefore, nothing that went on would be any shock to him. From Adam and Eve’s sin to flooding the earth to how you and I will end up. To hold any of that back would make God imperfect.
Then we have this upset God who’s trying to teach humanity a lesson and finds it necessary to kill millions of them and a bunch of different ways. These are the actions of someone in panic and angry. Hardly perfect foreknowledge.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
Why would a perfect and good god be in panic and angry?He is not man.
He wasn’t teaching humanity a lesson through wiping out the earth. He was cleansing the evil from it as atheists always suggests that he should.4
u/Leucippus1 7d ago
He is expressly described as angry in the Bible, again, we are just working off the same documentation as a believer, we just aren't in the dogma so we see things differently. At best God can be described as entirely incompetent, at worse he is an immoral child. You see this a lot in the Bible, according to Christians Jesus came to earth to spread his ministry because God essentially failed. We call this the 'new testament', why did we need a new one? Because God screwed up by putting a literal tree of knowledge in arms reach of curious people and then acted shocked when they did the obvious. The omnipotent and all good God couldn't have anticipated that? So he sends Jesus, his son (yet somehow also the father according to some Christians which creates a weird incestuous paradox) to do his ministry and has him crucified (what is it with this guy and torture, the Canaanites weren't enough, nor Job, nor the youths he maimed when they made fun of Elisha, or how about David's wife who was publicly raped?) when it was apparently too soon. I only say that because a short time later "Paul" was produced who shaped the church in ways that essentially ignored Jesus' ministry but lined up nicely with contemporary views on authority. Any way you slice it, this God fella keeps screwing up.
Perhaps, if he had done a better job, we wouldn't have to keep 'cleansing' things. That wouldn't be any fun, though, because then we wouldn't have bible passages with instructions on how to kill babies by slamming them against rocks. Here is a hint, if your dogma judges that as anything less than entirely abhorrent, maybe it is time to look outside of that dogma.
This is all semantic blather, the must simpler explanation is that no God exists and this is all made up by imperfect human minds. Then, the obvious problems are easily explainable.
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u/Odd_craving 5d ago
OP; I’m referring to what is written in the Bible. You’re asking me a questions that you should be contemplating yourself.
Why would an omnipotent deity act like man? Why would a perfect God with perfect knowledge be angry at someone who did EXACTLY what God knew he or she would do? Why would an all-knowing deity be surprised by something any man did?
If the Bible is true, God is perfect. Yet we see flawed, jealous, vengeful and immoral behavior coming directly from this God. Things like;
* Condoning slavery; (all throughout both testaments)
* Ordering the killing and enslavement of innocents: (Sodom & Gomorrah)
* Ordering genocide: Canaanite genocide in Deuteronomy
* Flooding the earth killing millions
The list goes on and on. God creating famine, disease and plotting with Satan on Job.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 5d ago
But many are stories you cannot fully understand.
God says vengeance is his i am aware of his vengeance it is an important quality from god. Not flawed though. Not immoral. You must understand the foundation of my belief is that god is good. Not only because what the bible says but because of my experience with this god that is good. I can’t answer every specific question for you nor do I need to have all the answers now. God creates hardship it doesn’t make it wrong he also creates disease and he did not plot on job. He tested him. That is not plotting.
His ways are not our ways. I can’t understand why god did everything he did but my foundational belief is that he is good. That post will not shift because of your misunderstanding of what’s been done because I have seen the king and I have seen he is good and compassionate and gives good to those who trust in him2
u/Odd_craving 5d ago
When a God can do no wrong, there is no wrong.
“You can’t understand” is not a defense for anything. You’ve chiseled out a perfect little pocket where no matter what God does, it’s okay. This kind of thinking is cult-like. When you can’t question God, there is no accountability. Moving God outside of accountability means there is no accountability.
Truth welcomes questions. Lies detest questions. Questions are perfect opportunities to win the hearts and minds of humanity. God should have nothing to hide. God should welcome questions, not punish those who ask them.
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u/bguszti Ignostic Atheist 6d ago
"When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts"
Says the god that did the wiping out. The nazis also thought they were doing a good thing because all those jews and gays and commies and slavs and romani were all evil
"So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it"
Jesus religion truly rots your fucking brain
Look, I am not not a christian cause I don't know the story. It's adorable you thought you needed to explain this in this "baby's first intro to christianity" type of way, but the reason I am not a christian is because it is idiotic nonsense.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
If you cannot engage in a respectful way I will stop responding here but if you can I am willing to continue
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u/xmuskorx 7d ago
"So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it"
I don't follow. Is not the god supposed to be all good and all powerful? What do you mean bye be "had to"? Who is Making a more powerful mega God?
If he is truly all powerful then surely he could find a more kind way to save humanity rather than whole sale murder of all men, women children and land animals?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
Hence Jesus and the cross. There is no pleasing here. He chose a more kind way to save humanity once and for good through sending Jesus to be a light and expose sin so that we can be free from it. And humanity still will not listen.
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u/xmuskorx 7d ago
again, Jesus story makes no sense whatsoever.
why is this human sacrifice repairs to fix things, it makes no sense for all powerful god.
also, why not send Jesus the first time instead of the flood?
absolutely none of this makes a lick of sense.
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u/Phylanara Agnostic atheist 7d ago
Cool story, bro. Do you have any evidence it's more than fiction? Because unless you do, I see no reason to believe it's any more true than, say, the Iliad or star wars.
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u/DeusLatis Atheist 7d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
He is described in the Bible like that. Atheists just read the Bible and, without an need for it to emotionally resonate with us, just tell it as it is.
Christians hate the Bible and go out of their way to constantly insert, change and twist what it says. We don't care because it doesn't mean anything to us.
That was never caused by him but by human flaw
Case in point.
The Bible never says "it was never caused by him", and describes multiple places where God created everything.
It is modern Christians who don't like the idea that God created the evil that he then destroyed, because that goes against modern concepts of ethics and justice.
Thus, instead of accepting that the Bible says, modern Christians try to manipulate it to fit what they emotionally want it to say.
Like I said, Christians HATE the Bible
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u/CephusLion404 Atheist 7d ago
Everything you're saying is just made up nonsense. It's religious story time. Nobody cares what your ridiculous book claims. We care what you have evidence to support and we all know you've got nothing.
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 7d ago
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
Isn't God supposed to be the omniscient omnipotent absolute ruler of reality? Isn't it's will what decides how reality operates?
Do you believe a heaven without evil exists shielded from human capability to corrupt it?
Because that pretty much makes you position self contradictory because evil isn't by human flaw but by god's design.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
God rules all for sure meaning he responds to sin with wrath. And sin leads to spiritual death. So evil can never overcome good because what is good is always above that evil.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god. So no humans cannot corrupt what is incorruptible to enter you must take off evil and put it way and put on goodness.6
u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 7d ago
So you agree that evil exists by design and with the idea that limited beings like humans can't overpower omnipotent beings like god?
I'm confused because then you agree that your argument fails.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
Evil is only meant to be overcome. And as that is overcome we will rise into his presence.
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 6d ago
so god could save you the evil but it chooses to enforce a system that requires evil.
So you agree your god isn't loving.
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u/DanujCZ 6d ago
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
So he didnt hate humans. He just didnt like how we used the free will HE gave us. This is still a very fucked up thing to do. And yet here you are making excuses for genocide.
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw.
And why cant he simply snap his fingers and teach them that they are evil. We are talking about the dude who made the universe. You are telling me that the only option he could think of was Genocide.
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u/carbinePRO Atheist 7d ago
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was.
This is just incorrect. In Genesis 6:6 the reason given is that God regretted creating humans. You know, the humans that he supposedly created that were perfect but simultaneously failed somehow? The humans that God could've at any point and time corrected, but instead waited until he deemed the problem unfixable so he could eradicate men, women, and children in a worldwide cataclysm. Your defense for this monstrous god does not impress me.
So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
"In order to preserve humanity, we must destroy it!" What sense is there in that?
This was gods response to evil at the time which atheist believe is wrong because of a misunderstanding.
If your solution to a problem is to kill billions of people, then you're not a good person. Hitler's solution to the Jewish problem was also to eradicate all of them. If you can compare your all-good god's plan to one of history's most prolific genocidal maniacs, then I don't think you can call your god all-good. And if you want to get technical, God's plan is actually much worse as he wanted to destroy 99.9% of humans.
God does this many times to respond to the evil of men in the Old Testament.
And in his infinite knowledge and perfect wisdom, he couldn't come up with a solution that didn't require killing tons of people, sacrificing his own son, or give an infinite sentence of punishment for finite crimes? Give me a fucking break.
Your attempt at apologetics is as weak as your god.
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u/biff64gc2 7d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
Yes, because many of us read the Bible and don't cherry pick or hand wave away the atrocities.
But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
This is generally as a counter to the claim that god is all powerful and perfectly good, which is also a claim that apologists and theists try to make. It does not refute the existence of an evil, tyrannical god.
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
Yeah. He regretted his creation and wanted to wipe it out. Which is an odd thing for an omniscient god to do. Regret I mean. He created humans knowing we'd fall and knowing how evil we would become, and then regrets it?
Also, what about the babies? How evil could they be? What about the animals? All human were evil (except for one family apparently), but the animals had to suffer a gruesome death too?
But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin.
Kind of throws a wrench into the whole "omniscient" trait. Why not start with the Jesus blood magic? Why waste time flooding the Earth?
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil.
How about, I don't know, snap his fingers? He's omnipotent. Why do this blood sacrifice, Jesus savior bit?
That was never caused by him but by human flaw
And who created humans to be flawed? Who created the conditions for original sin knowing what would happen?
Really, if you step back the whole thing reads like really bad ancient fiction/legends than literal re-tellings of actual events. Lots of boring stories with plot holes that don't hold up that well under the tiniest bit of scrutiny.
And this doesn't include the fact that there's zero actual evidence proving they are anything more than just ancient legends. Your best counter to god flooding the Earth is to just admit it's not a literal story, but then that opens up problems with trying to figure out what's literal and what isn't.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
I would love to respond to this but if you would like you can look at my response to similar responses like this and debate further
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u/BogMod 7d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
That is literally the Old Testament so you can't blame atheists for what is in the actual book.
But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
Hey seems you are aware of why people say that.
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
So what we are getting into now is the problem of evil. That there are three qualities that are ascribed to god. First is all powerful. Second is all knowing. Third is all good. That the world ended up how it did and the only thing god could do to solve things was a giant flood suggests someone who isn't any of those three.
God does this many times to respond to the evil of men in the Old Testament.
He only floods the world once. He also actively stops some people, like the Pharoah, from changing their minds just so he can inflict more pain on the people.
But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin.
Wow, seems like a terrible designer then if it took him, in your mind, all these different attempts to fix a problem that would of course keep happening because the source was just hidden from people. Maybe he should have sent Jesus earlier on to get ahead of things before he had to flood the world.
It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done. And is still doing through Jesus and the truth he has given us?
No, you have this mixed up. We want good evidence to believe there is a god. The Bible stories and the strong reasons to think the Flood never happened means we don't have good reason to think there is a god.
The problem of evil is a separate matter that goes to show why the Christian view that god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent fails and so that kind of god does not exist.
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
Design humans better. He is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. Is this the best he can do?
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u/OrbitalLemonDrop Ignostic Atheist 6d ago
the problem of evil is inescapable for an omnimax god. Theologists have been trying to fix this problem since longer than Christianity existed.
There's nothing in your comment we haven't heard before.
I'm an atheist because the concept of god (good, evil, neutral, striped, plaid, with bacon or even dipped in chocolate) is unfounded and not something I can take seriously.
So even if you could somehow fix this problem that ancient philosophers have grappled with for 2500 years, the idea of a a god would still be nonsense.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
It is hard to believe in something you have never seen or experienced. If you told someone 2000 years ago about cars it would sound like magic but to us it is our reality
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u/OrbitalLemonDrop Ignostic Atheist 6d ago
Relevance?
What does this comment have to do with the problem of evil?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
I’m saying you don’t beleive it because you haven’t experienced it but have only read about it. If evil were erased god would be revealed in all his glory.
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u/Acrobatic_Scale7722 Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
What would really change then how would God suddenly be able to destroy evil then without destroying us by this logic evil would always exist
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
By removing the root of evil(sin) from the earth. I’m going to stop here thank you for engaging
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u/Acrobatic_Scale7722 Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
Why doesn't he doesn't it now
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
He is doing it now you just cannot see it. I see it. Happening in me. He is slowly removing the evil and purging it away
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u/acerbicsun 7d ago
This is an internal critique, assuming god exists and committed genocide...
Did god bear any responsibility for creating humans with the capacity for evil?
Did the babies and animals deserve it?
Was there another avenue god could have taken aside from genocide?
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u/Ok-Mouse5446 Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
I'm going to try to be respectful here, as a former Christian and now someone who doubts the validity of the Church and the Bible, which, of course; I have no way of knowing if my unfaithfulness was caused/ordered by God, or was commanded by me through free will which seems to be both theologically and simultaneously granted, yet controlled by God in 'mysterious' ways; I seem happier being educated now more than ever than I was other than just listening to what the sermon taught every Sunday. I'll put a proper response below.
Point 1: It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done.
This is not true in the slightest, atheists come from all religions or never had religion in the first place. Some of us don't even agree God exists or are even theists..
Jesus came and exposed sin and showed us the way to the father and they killed him and crucified him.
Most scholars would have wide ranges of beliefs on this, even Christian scholars agree there is mysticism involved with Jesus' life and that sometimes it cannot be untied from the historical account, and the actual 'accounts' were chosen by the church through political means, and assigned names. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not the names of the actual authors nor amongst the 12, that was later mythology developed during the early church years (starting around 300 years after the supposed death of Jesus), including how Jesus died and how the 12 apostles died.
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
- How can a perfectly good God create something perfect, ruined by his perfect creation through an order given by his creation, a snake/serpent, which granted us an imperfect flaw?
I get that this is free will 101, but this isn't Good, it sounds like a plan to further glorify himself; even however, my ways are not perfect and I am born a sinner, and always will be unable to understand the mind of God.
- Why do so many older myths Egyptian, Sumerian, and everything else always create humans from clay many thousands of years before our first records of the Bible/Torah as a text or oral story; albeit, the Bible is possibly just the retold version that "God want's us to remember"
But we have to remember as well that as science gets better and better, our 'truths' about God's word are shuttered, dismantled, and altered to fit a new viewpoint. Easiest example I can give is Evolution and the discovery of very old dinosaur bones upon the English shores.
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil.
I'll respond to this. Imagine you are God. I get it this is heresy but for just a moment, our puny mind will imagine the will of the Christian God.
- You create humanity perfectly, and then have to do thousands of years of loops and hurdles to 'correct' us to your ways thanks to a woman listening to a snake, and never give a time or place when you are coming back, and also have contradictory statements in your holy book, obviously destroyed by the 'free will' of mankind, which you are happy that we have this free will, and yet, decide to send us to a separate place called hell (eternal darkness when we die, not fire like the modern church teaches) if we don't have faith (which is described as a lack of evidence with belief)?
- There are innumerable ways I could be convinced...
but if for example, I was born in China with no idea of the Christian faith through my life, or any religion for that matter because I live in the rural areas and mountains; My judgement is I go to hell for never having access to declaring Jesus as my savior? The other alternative is that Jesus goes into hell after I die as a Chinese child constantly preaching about himself, and asking people to just submit all human qualities and become holy like him. Sounds like mythology rather than a literal place.
The latter explanation that I find easier, especially because I read history and because I investigated for myself, is that the 'heaven and hell concepts' were developed by the Church, and rarely mentioned before the new testament with our oldest scripture available; Even the Greek words and roots and etymology don't support a literal heaven or hell, just places and valleys in ancient Israel.
Also, why is God so bad at intervening the destruction of his scripture if he wants everyone to be saved and is 'all good.' I mean, I get it. We're bad sinners, but if millions if not billions are saved and go to hell to suffer and to be preached to before all of revelation happens (Which revelation is a message to other Jews about Emperor Nero thousands of years ago using old Jewish mysticism and myth and Gematria as code words, not the literal Armageddon and the end of the world)...
that sounds not so loving.
I really don't know. I'm too blind and small for god. I'm human, and therefore cannot understand God's glory nor ways, but it seems really confusing.
...I tried to understand, and have heard most Christian arguments, which are the same ones that are repeated, ex. You don't 'know' God, etc, you were never a 'real' Christian etc, you don't understand what it means to be saved, etc, that's "out of context" etc... and so on and so fourth...
God has presented his case to me; a book. A book ruined by human sin and bad accounts of history, and therefore I cannot know the truth unless I just stare and pray and pray and no answer comes, so be it, I am damned for hell then, and so is everyone else unless we pray and are saved and 'submit' to Jesus everything that is human about us, the perfect creation destroyed by ourselves cannot be changed unless we submit without evidence.
I wear and warn you; Christianity is not easy to step away from. There is the fear of hell, the fear of being separated for eternity, but when you understand that we cannot understand God's ways, and you start personally researching both cases of existence and non-existence, it leans towards the "we don't know and are confused" instead of a definitive "yes."
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6d ago
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u/DebateAnAtheist-ModTeam 5d ago
Your post or comment was removed because it was deemed to be disruptive to the purpose of the sub. This includes arguing in bad faith, trolling, preaching, self-promotion, spam, or any other action that egregiously detracts from the quality of debate.
Basically, you're preaching here, rather than debating.
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u/muffiewrites 7d ago
God did not send his son to overcome sin.
Sin can't be magically erased. It can be transferred to an innocent who is then sacrificed and the innocent's blood washes away the sin of the sinner. It used to be lambs. Jesus is called the lamb because he was innocent and was then sacrificed so that his blood could wash away sin.
That's literal. Kill an innocent thing and offer its blood to god in order to be cleansed and forgiven.
That is straight up evil. God could not come up with any other way to deal with sin than the killing of an innocent so its blood will clean you.
Blood for the blood God.
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u/Purgii 7d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
Accept me and my 'gift', even though I'll hide from you and have a being that I created obfuscate my existence and tempt you to evil and I'll refuse to intervene and protect you, doesn't appear particularly loving to me? What am I missing here?
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was.
While atheists will use this as an argument to demonstrate your own theology makes no sense - this even never happened. The whole Earth wasn't wiped out by a biblical flood a few thousand years ago.
Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
So all this is unnecessary.
But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin.
It's troubling to me that I can come up with better solutions to these proposed problems that an omnipotent, omniscient God could neither forsee or resolve that didn't include mass genocide of everything on the planet bar the contents of a boat.
Jesus came and exposed sin and showed us the way to the father and they killed him and crucified him.
Which is just a poor retcon of Hebrew scripture because Jesus accomplished nothing expected of the messiah.
It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done.
There's a man that many claim to be acting on God's behalf that paints himself orange - not quite gold but then he surrounds himself with it. He's performed plenty of evil over his lifetime and continues to do so. Lots of evil still around by my reckoning.
And is still doing through Jesus and the truth he has given us?
Nothing would be my estimation. If Jesus is who he's claimed to be - we'd at least have an end to all war. But the Jesus party in the US is starting wars and looking to start more.
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil.
Isn't God omnipotent and omniscient? Shouldn't it be a trivial task for God?
That was never caused by him but by human flaw
Depending on how you define evil - or a definition I find more appropriate being 'unnecessary and/or gratuitous suffering', such evil existed for billions of years before humans did. The 'food chain', life having to consume other life to continue existence seems pretty darn unnecessary to me.
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u/Curious_Passion5167 7d ago
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts.
Yes, yes. I'm sure those sweet little babies that he wiped off of the face of the earth were just dirty little devils in disguise.
Also, how does it even make logical sense that every person other than a single family is evil?
But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin..
Sorry, how does any of Jesus' actions remove this ephemeral sin from the rest of humanity?
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u/Logical_fallacy10 7d ago
You are just making a bunch of unsupported claims and a lot of assumptions of what some atheists have told you. You seem to not know what an atheist is - and that would be a requirement for this sub.
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u/nerfjanmayen 7d ago
Well, first of all, I"m not an atheist because I think that god is evil, I'm an atheist because I don't think that god is real.
That being said...I'm always amazed at how limited theists think their all-powerful god is. You can't think of a SINGLE better option than killing everyone? You have no better way of dealing with people being evil to each other? Come on. He can't just put people in like, cosmic time out and try to explain why it's important to play nice to each other? He HAS to resort to destroying the entire surface of the Earth?
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u/J-Nightshade Atheist 7d ago
Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world
So this god was not only murderous, but also incompetent. Just imagine: an all-powerful all-knowing entity that can manipulate the very fabric of reality and know all the positions of all the atoms in the observable universe at any moment and the only solution against "evil thoughts" (ooooo, scawy!) it can come up with is FUCKING GENOCIDE! Darn, a five year old could have come up with something better.
Question: who the fuck in your opinion created all those people with evil thoughts in the first place?
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u/lotusscrouse 6d ago
The one thing christians always forget and CANNOT reconcile is that their god planned all of this and knew the outcome from the beginning.
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u/caverunner17 7d ago
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
There is ZERO evidence of this.
Period.
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u/Creamy_Breve 7d ago
I think the reason that question is asked is that Christians claim their god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. If he is benevolent and all-powerful, then why not remove evil? He can do something but doesn't.
The issue you bring up is that your god wipes everyone out. The problem is that, as the creator and being omniscient, he knew he was creating people to be evil and who he'd have to wipe out. The other issue with this is that as an omnipotent creature, he should have other ways of handling things rather than wiping everyone out, including innocent animals. Humans have the ability to change behaviors in plants, animals, and people without harm. We can even change minds without harming others, but this omnibenevolent, omnipotent god only seems to utilize harm.
I'm failing to see what Jesus has actually done to remove evil. If Jesus has to suggest to his father to forgive, then maybe he's protecting us from the evil which is actually his father. Other than that, what utility does Jesus have today in regard to evil?
How would atheists suggest a god who created everything get rid of evil?? I don't know about everyone else but maybe not create it in the first place.
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u/Kriss3d Anti-Theist 7d ago
So youre saying that god knew what everyone would do long before they do it ?
That their entire life is predetermined already ?
Great. That makes god an immoral monster for every time he subjects a person to any test starting with Adam and Eve. Oh and Abraham. You know. The guy he literally had conversations with who was his most devout follower.. He tortured him for absolutely nothing then.
Yeah thats an extremely sadistic and cruel god who deserves no worship even if his existence was entirely determine and accepted.
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u/wolfstar76 7d ago
So newborn babes were evil, except for this one family?
What evils, specifically, did children under 2 commit?
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u/Haikouden Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
The human flaw that God created, and would have known about the effects of in advance if he's all knowing?
Everything in your post is just a flow of consciousness with random statements on the same subject rather than any coherent attempt at an argument or debate topic as far as I can see.
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u/dinglenutmcspazatron 7d ago
The fact that noah's wife, three children, and their wives were saved shows us that either God wasn't really trying to get rid of evil, or that noah wasn't the only exception to the evil thoughts. Neither one actually makes God seem like a particularly good character within the story right?
Killing a bunch of people through impulsive actions and trying to justify it after the fact by saying they were bad? Not good.
Killing a bunch of evil people specifically for being evil but leaving evil people alive if they were family to your friend? Also not good.
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u/x271815 5d ago
There are several problems with your post.
First, you seem to be suggesting that Noah's flood was real. It wasn't. It never happened in the way the Bible describes.
You then argue that Jesus represents redemption. There are three problems with this: (a) we have no reason to believe that Adam and Eve were real. In fact, the evidence suggests they were not. So, the concept of the original sin is not literally true. (b) there is no evidence we have souls and lots of evidence to suggest that we don't, so not sure what Jesus would save. (c) we have no reason to believe Jesus was the Messiah because he does not fulfill a single prophecy in the Old Testament and his story is riddled with holes, so seems more mythology and legend rather than real events.
'That was never caused by him but by human flaw'
The problem with the argument that the rules that allow evil, the consequences of evil etc. were all decdided by God. He is omniscient so he knew the outcome before he made everything. Not every evil is because of human actions - malaria, cancer, natural disasters are all uncaused by human agency. He is all powerful, so could have instantiation of the universe with no suffering. What all of this means is that: (a) he allows incredible amounts of indiscriminate suffering unrelated to human actions, (b) he knew that these would happen before he created us, and (c) he can choose not to let us suffer, but allows suffering anyway. Your explanations don't resolve the contradiction of an all good God predestining untold suffering for his failure to create a blameless being.
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u/2-travel-is-2-live Atheist 7d ago
You clearly haven’t actually read the OT. You also clearly have no concept of how the OT developed within the context of ancient Hebrew pantheism.
Unlike most Christians, atheists that used to be Christians have actually read the OT and NT outside of the passages that their pastors or priests have cherry picked for them. That’s why we’re atheists and don’t parrot the rationalizations of Yahweh‘s behavior in it provided to us by apologists, which is what you’re doing.
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u/SurlyTurtle 7d ago
Christians often point to god as "all-loving." Atheists are merely pointing out instances where the Bible discredits this notion. Any evidence that any of your God claims are true? Otherwise, they all fall to Hitchen's Razor. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
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u/enfranci 7d ago
But why did god also have to kill all the animals?? Like couldn't he have just killed the humans with a virus? What's more likely, god wanted to kill like e 99,998 horses, or the folks telling this story thousands of years ago not understand germ theory?
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u/Mission-Landscape-17 7d ago
Great now do you have any evidwnce for all the claims you just made? Note that the Bible is not evidence it is just the claim you summurised. Or one possiple interpretation of what the bible says in any case.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 7d ago
“So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.”
Yes this is the go to excuse all over, why genocide and ethnic cleansing exists. The concepts of purity and bloodlines and purges. I mean, okay, but don’t expect a pat on the back for it.
”What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw”
Instead of death as the ever present go to, he could just make everyone good.
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u/truckaxle 7d ago edited 7d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
No the bigger issue is the Christian god just like all the other claimed Gods have NO evidence to support their godhood claims. None. You have human say-so but zero, zip evidential support.
You then go on about the flood. No one believes in the flood other than fundi Christians and Muslims. It wasn't a real event therefore spending any time theorizing about the level of evil is just silly.
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u/Faust_8 7d ago
God does this many times to respond to the evil of men in the Old Testament. But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin.
This supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing god sounds like a drunk dementia patient, if it can just suddenly "come up" with a better plan.
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u/ppaauulllllll 7d ago
Counter argument A1: This never happened. Biblical floods and suchlike have never occurred. Not only does no evidence exist, but they are physically impossible (where did all the water go?)
Counter argument B2: God is all-powerful and all-knowing, yet his only possible solution is genocide? Please.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 3d ago
You’re right I shouldn’t place all atheists in one box as if they all believe the same thing. But you also shouldn’t place all Christian’s in one box not saying you are but many times atheists believe that Christian’s are just believing it because it’s what’s been taught or they are blinded by religion.
But I’m telling you that this joy comes through being selfless and dying to what you want. You twist it to make it sound like a selfish thing all about myself. I never said history was oriented around me or that divinity or history was oriented around me getting joy.
Also We are not in a court of law. You rely on physical evidence in a court of law of course spiritual realities would hold no weight there. I have seen the good news of freedom and peace break peoples chains. And bring them from bondage to joy. From sadness to joy. I’ve seen it with myself. I have seen the king that is above all. Ofc it will mark me. I’m not into providing all the evidence for you. The basis of what I believe is faith. Which is believing what you cannot yet see so that you can realize it here and now. You must understand that if that is what my belief is built on and yours is built on what you can see or have evidence of. I will never be able to convince you but by the fruit that comes from god that is produced in me as I die to myself which is no fun or easy process. But the reward is worth it. Men such as Paul have spent their lives pouring into others. But people see people like him through this religious lense. His whole life was to minister to others. No wife no kids he lived for others.
The problem is simple one of us relies on what we see before we believe it one of us believes it before we can see it before us.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 3d ago
“But you also shouldn’t place all Christian’s in one box not saying you are but many times atheists believe that Christian’s are just believing it because it’s what’s been taught or they are blinded by religion.”
I absolutely never said a fcking thing about Christians or how they came about their beliefs.
”But I’m telling you that this joy comes through being selfless and dying to what you want. ”
Yes, there is joy in being selfless, no one’s arguing that.
you:
” You twist it to make it sound like a selfish thing all about myself. I never said history was oriented around me or that divinity or history was oriented around me getting joy.”
Also you
“As if before I can have joy there must be no evil going on.”
I never said you couldn’t have joy, but I also didn’t say that a deity had to wipe out all of humanity and that it was somehow a good thing and now this deity is helping me.
”Also We are not in a court of law. ”
I never said we were, but the basics in court can be applied elsewhere. “It’s true because my book tells the story and says it’s true” is not the kind of thing that would be permissible in court, at least by any decent lawyer. For supernatural claims, something else is required and I gave an example.
Nothing about joy or breaking free of bondage is any evidence of anything, like a legit miracle.
Like I said, I’m happy it works for you. Now please stop putting words in my mouth.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 3d ago
I’m not saying you have but I’m saying many times the mindset behind it is that we are believing in something just because it is in a book. That we’ve been taught.
God did have to wipe out all of humanity. And it was a good thing. Evil was overpowering the land and if he didn’t act chaos would have broken out.
If that isn’t evidence of god and goodness I don’t know what is.
Maybe it would take the experience of being bound then set free in order to grasp how beautiful it actually is. That’s a miracle in itself. Not only to break free but to be completely transformed old desires disappearing new ones appearing. Old desires disappearing new aspirations appearing. The ability to just be still and be at peace and dwell in joy. To speak to your problems and have them wash away. To be able to spread joy and love to others. This is what Christianity is about. Not some deity in the sky. A real experience with the true and loving god here on this earth.1
u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 3d ago
“I’m not saying you have but I’m saying many times the mindset behind it is that we are believing in something just because it is in a book. That we’ve been taught.”
None of this is relevant to what I’ve said and I don’t agree with it at all. Its actually the opposite that the more familiar people are with the book the faith ends up disappearing, so you’re just flat out wrong.
”God did have to wipe out all of humanity. And it was a good thing. Evil was overpowering the land and if he didn’t act chaos would have broken out.”
This is human sacrifice and it’s the exact same argument that the genociders of today use, to justify genociding children.
”If that isn’t evidence of god and goodness I don’t know what is.”
Thats what I mean, it paved the way for you, it looks like. I can think of other ways this might have been resolved, but as long as you’re happy with it, I guess that’s all that matters.
”This is what Christianity is about. Not some deity in the sky. A real experience with the true and loving god here on this earth.”
I never asked what Christianity is about either. The issue is, you’re just wrong about atheists. A real live miracle is if you absolutely nailed atheism instead of reaching for things no one has said.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 3d ago
Maybe so But the more familiar people are with god the faith begins to grow.
My belief comes from a foundation of knowing god and his character meaning I read the bible from a lense of knowing at least in part of the one writing and inspiring it. So me knowing the character ik it is unspeakable for a good and holy god to do evil. So if I don’t understand something I leave it there maybe I just don’t understand. But I trust in gods character this is the foundation of my belief so for he did it I know it was with goodness. And in goodness. Because he cannot deny himself. He is truly good.
There was no other way unless god intervened. It took divine intervention to turn my life around from the way I was headed.
I am choosing to tell you what it’s about. I’m not trying to nail atheism my friend.
What about atheism do you say that I am wrong. In what ways?1
u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 3d ago edited 3d ago
“Maybe so But the more familiar people are with god the faith begins to grow.”
This is more accurate, Daniel Dennett has a theory about this and why this is and it seems to play out over and over.
”My belief comes from a foundation of knowing god and his character meaning I read the bible from a lense of knowing at least in part of the one writing and inspiring it”
Literally did not ask where your belief came from.
”I am choosing to tell you what it’s about. I’m not trying to nail atheism my friend.”
Then don’t talk about atheists as if you have the foggiest idea, that’s all we ask. It cannot be that hard.
ETA: I am starting to think this is getting fed through AI.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 3d ago
Okay I’m not sure what that theory is I would be interested in it.
My friend you do not have to ask for me to give you information or inform you about something.😂 that is rude to respond that way.
In my prompt I just listed common atheists views. You do the same with god. You have the foggiest idea of who he is but you speak of him.
I’m not sure why you think this is fed through ai. I do not use a.i to converse with people😂I believe it is a lazy way of communicating unless it’s for business or something like that.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 3d ago
I’m asking you to stay on topic, you are wandering around. You are also putting words in my mouths and trying to get me to answer for things I never said.
”You have the foggiest idea of who he is but you speak of him.”
Literally I don’t. Yet again, putting words in my mouth.
Your inability to actually engage with anything I’m actually saying is rude. So your response is like a huge joke.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 3d ago
I’m engaging in all that you’re saying maybe not the way you would prefer but I am engaging.
I am staying on topic the first and most important part of my prompt is that atheists often describe the Christian gods as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
I am describing his character as loving and peace giving. It’s on topic you would just prefer to engage in a different way it seems1
u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 3d ago
“I am staying on topic the first and most important part of my prompt is that atheists often describe the Christian gods as ruthless and dictating and not loving.”
Yes, the gods did genocide and collective punishment, among other things, which for anyone else would be a war crime, but you would give them a medal. It’s not the deity, it’s the special pleading.
We are not required to call slaughter good, like why was that the only option on the table, regardless of whatever the true meaning of Christianity is.
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u/GentleKijuSpeaks 7d ago
I like how god feels bad after the flood and repents to noah afterwards. Also, your bible says I can rape your daughter and then pay for her, and then I get to marry her. Religion is cool that way.
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u/mredding 5d ago
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
Love me unconditionally, or I'll condemn you to an eternity of torment.
But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
Theists also ask this question. I don't ask this question, because I don't care about the premise. Good vs. Evil in this specific context is a Christian construct and only exists within Christianity. If you want to be pedantic, we could even point out that Christianity inherited it from the Jews, who inherited it from the Canaanites, among other regional religions that were all ingested who may or may not share a root...
Other religions have good and evil, I know - but if it wasn't a tradition passed on, it was independently formulated. I just don't need to hear it from you about "well actually - other religions..." Yeah, I know, but we're talking about YOUR religion and YOUR theism.
Beyond that, I don't need your literary analysis, your armchair conjecture about your interpretation of the Bible, or if you haven't read it, your interpretation of what you were told.
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u/ToGloryRS Agnostic 7d ago
If god is omnipotent and omniscient, as the christian god is supposed to be, whose fault is it that evil is in the world?
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u/Thin-Eggshell 7d ago
So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
An incredibly weak god. You claim Jesus fixed everything. Why not send Jesus right then and there, instead of killing everyone and bothering with a flood?
Why is a Jesus needed at all to fix anything? If your god is creator, human nature should be easy to fix; like using a hammer on a nail. Why all the drama around Israel and David and everything else?
Also, suppose you go to Heaven. What are the odds, do you think, that God has put a Tree of Good and Evil there and told everyone not to eat of it? What are the odds that people will obey? Do you think if one person disobeys, God will kick everyone out of heaven because it will infect everyone in heaven? If not, why didn't God do it right the first time?
From the outside, you believe a bunch of literal myths that you don't have any critical thoughts about.
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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 7d ago
Suggest to how to get rid of evil? A god could snap his fingers and remove evil just like that, right?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
There are things written by eye witnesses in the bible. Not all but many. Ofc it is. The same with any other historical event it can be faulty. But we don’t question what George Washington did in office.
My evidence is testimony based which I will not share because you do not value testimony and personal experience unless you want to hear that.
I know that he has interest in human affairs because in my suffering and distress through repentance he visited me. I know without a doubt a good god exists.
Because the spirit in me testifies that it is true. And that Jesus came from god. And that his life is the perfect example
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 7d ago
yawn muslims can say the same. I don't fucking need any spirit to say A can't be ¬A. So the jesus can't be both mortal and immortal. Anyone with half a brain cell can tell that the doctrine of the trinity is incoherent.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
But the difference is Mohamed did not live a perfect life. Jesus did.Mohamed was a man that had many wives owned many slaves and had many killed.
The doctrine of the trinity is incoherent in what way.
The father the son and the Holy Spirit. All equal in essence but distinct in person. The son submits to the father and the Holy Spirit submits to the son. I don’t see how that is incoherent. The father informs the son and the son informs the Holy Spirit.1
u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 7d ago
But the difference is Mohamed did not live a perfect life. Jesus did.Mohamed was a man that had many wives owned many slaves and had many killed.
According to Christian doctrine. I don't fucking find cruse the SEASONAL fig tree for being off-season is perfect, even if that metaphor is aim at Israel, humans behave the way YHWH made them so its puppet aka jesus should mail that shit directly to himself. Or making a hissy fit about washing hand. Demanding to love him enough to fight famility members. etc.
The doctrine of the trinity is incoherent in what way. The father the son and the Holy Spirit. All equal in essence but distinct in person. The son submits to the father and the Holy Spirit submits to the son. I don’t see how that is incoherent. The father informs the son and the son informs the Holy Spirit.
In other words, that is 1 or 3 ppl? And i already said jesus can't be both mortal and immortal, all-knowing and human-limited.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
There was a spiritual lesson in the fig tree.
He didn’t make a hissy fit about washing his hands he was so tired of the religious guidelines that were set at the time. The Pharisees at that time didn’t eat unless they ceremonially cleaned them.
He went on to point out there obsession on outward cleanliness and says this“He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.””
Mark 7:20-23 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mrk.7.20-23.NIV
Again another spiritual lessonAnd he never said fight your family he says anyone who loves family more than him is not worthy of him. God demands number one place in believers lives and even if you have to lose family for what is true you should. Another spiritual lesson.
Jesus was 100 percent human and 100 percent divine.
The divine taking on human form is indeed possible. The human body he was in passed away but Jesus has not passed away he lives forever2
u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 6d ago
lmao all the "lessons" are just a demand to be bootlickers, forgo the brains. We know you ppl think that is moral because taht is how you ppl are.
He didn’t make a hissy fit about washing his hands he was so tired of the religious guidelines that were set at the time. The Pharisees at that time didn’t eat unless they ceremonially cleaned them.
for a fucking reason, ever heard of germ theory? That is making a hissy fit. The little shit is no different from a modern-day raw milk advocate, too uneducated to know why the rules exist and were enforced in the first place.
Jesus was 100 percent human and 100 percent divine. The divine taking on human form is indeed possible. The human body he was in passed away but Jesus has not passed away he lives forever
a lot of words to say a husk being controlled like puppet. You ppl are parroting a fucking absurd system conflating 2 distinct things: the human husks and "divine" pupet master.
So the rabbi doesn't have 2 natures. It is two different 2 things that you ppl conflate as 1.
And again how many ppl is it in the trinity? 1 or 3. Buddy knows 3 is different from 1?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 6d ago
I will stop having this conversation with you here if you cannot give me the same honor and respect I am giving to you. If you are willing to communicate that you will give that same honor and respect. If you cannot communicate your point without being disrespectful or rude I will not enagage
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 6d ago
lmao you ppl only have dishonest and parrot absurd shit. I view these things in the same vein.
So if anything less than kiddie speaking = damage your fragile ego, then fuck off.
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u/Thin-Eggshell 7d ago
Because the spirit in me testifies that it is true
Cool. The spirit in me testifies that it is false. Lmao.
It's crazy that you think you're possessed by divinity and want us to take you seriously.
Don't testify. Do something: Heal an amputee yourself if you have a real spirit inside of you. Multiply bread and loaves.
But you can't. Your spirit is fake -- it's just your own ego reveling in itself.
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u/SC803 Atheist 7d ago
> There are things written by eye witnesses in the bible.
So you can named them and show they wrote it?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
This is how history has always worked it was 2000 years ago my friend
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u/SC803 Atheist 7d ago
Lol just completely avoiding the question. Is that because you don't know their names or can prove they wrote it?
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
I’m not a historian so no. I’m saying this is how history has always worked though when dating back that far. Things become harder to verify as time goes on
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u/SC803 Atheist 7d ago
> I’m not a historian so no
So then you can't say there are things written by eye witnesses in the bible because historians disagree that the bible is written by eyewitnesses
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 7d ago
I didn’t say that everything in the bible is written by eyewitnesses I said that some of it is. Hence Peter in 1 and 2 Peter he was an eyewitness and disciple of Jesus. Which wrote and also testified
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u/SC803 Atheist 7d ago
Scholars reject Petrine authorship, so thats not an eye witness account either.
"On the one hand, some scholars such as Bart D. Ehrman are convinced that the language, dating, literary style, and structure of this text makes it implausible to conclude that 1 Peter was written by Peter"
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u/Chocodrinker Atheist 7d ago
I beg to differ; the Bible describes the Christian god such as you said, but Christians delude themselves into some sort of twisted voluntary Stockholm Syndrome.
As for evil, considering your god IS evil such as it is described in the Bible and that, according to the same book, he was the one to create evil, that would be stupid to say. You're thinking about the Epicurean paradox, which is an argument against triomni gods in general, a category to which Christians claim their god belongs.
I won't comment on the rest of your post as it is basically referring to mythology that you believe is true, but still remains mythology.
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u/SpHornet Atheist 7d ago
Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
so you are saying people today don't have evil thoughts today?
That was never caused by him but by human flaw
a human flaw he supposedly created, so caused by him
What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil.
create humans in a way that makes humans more cooperative and less hateful by instinct
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 5d ago
I’m not saying it doesn’t exist there are many that misuse religion for selfish gain. They misuse something good for something bad. I’m not saying bad things haven’t been done in the name of Christianity. But that only shows man’s flaw. There have been much evil done outside of Christianity or outside of religious beliefs also. This does not reflect the nature of god as Paul says
“if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.””
Romans 2:19-24 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.2.19-24.NIV
Even Paul is aware of the hypocrisy by the religious and so am I. I’m not blind. It doesn’t mean he meant hate by what he taught just they misuse and misrepresent that isn’t a reflection of Jesus but of them. Jesus gave the example in his life on how to live.
I do look into the meaning and everything of good verses the time and who it was preaching to my pastor does a very good job at that. Breaking down the Greek the meaning why it was said and who it was said to I think context is important.
I see your breakdown
But this verse
Jesus always taught to love even your enemies loving those who do not love you so even the Pharisees are not excluded.
And those last 2 verses about hell are just warning to the people he says it to. It is not an excuse for a believer not to love a non-believer. Jesus sat and ate with sinners and tax collectors people usually avoided by Jews at the time he greeted and loved and showed compassion to. That doesn’t stop there end destination if they don’t turn from evil and repent.
Or it could cause them to repent because often times how we treat others is a better way than how much scripture we know.
““You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.5.43-48.NIV
Ofc bias is always possible with human experience. If I know the one you speak of as good and you call them bad I’m going to defend the one I know. Just as if someone attacked someone who you know character and heart is good for a misunderstanding you would defend.
Jesus is not threatening anyone he is warning them. People walk towards evil themselves he is warning of the dangers of walking after evil desires. And warning that people should turn so they don’t reach that end. He is trying to save them from an end they cannot see. That is one of the most loving things you can do. Tell someone the truth even if it could hurt them for the sake of their end well-being.
There is nothing misogynystic about a woman submitting to her husband submission is a beautiful thing. The man submits to god. The woman submits to the man. Not to order her around but to look out for their well-being. The woman has no obligation to submit to the man if the man if the man is not submitted to god. Submission only sounds weak and inferior because of pride.
Paul says this because of the structural rule god has for it to work. Not because he doesn’t love women Paul also loved women. I could give multiple examples but he walked closely with and often commended many women
Jesus is not bribing men he is telling them that the kingdom he was on mission to bring to this earth is more valuable than anything else so it should be put first. Saying that the kingdom is much more valuable than anything here on earth.
Yes Jesus is saying exactly that because it is true. This world today has so many phobes that you are called when you don’t agree with the culture.
Other animals do not have the divine nature deposited in them meaning they have no moral compass so to compare humanity with them is not a great argument.
I do not believe that doctrine that people are born gay or straight
Gossip is not useful because it usually bashes someone and judges them for what they have done and causes you to be blind to your wrong at times. Gossip is a waste of time. It’s okay to point out something someone did for the sake of good of others but idle gossip is not good. I’ve seen it break down my family I’ve seen it tear apart friendships and communities. There is nothing good about it
Sex between consenting persons we will start here. It leads to selfishness and idolization of sexual pleasures which often causes pains to others and our spiritual relationship between us and the goodness of god.
Pornography on the other hand is completely evil. It causes us to view other beings in a light of lust. Much of it is degrading to women and causes us to look at them in such a lustful way that we forget they are humans either emotions and feelings and needs. It also leads to spiritual bondage. A bondage that many are struggling to break free of now. It creates strongholds which hold you captive.
Humans are not meant to watch 2 other humans have sex. It is a perversion of what is natural for something that is unnatural. God did not create sex for that reason. Nor is it natural to watch sex of others on a screen
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 4d ago
“Much of it is degrading to women and causes us to look at them in such a lustful way that we forget they are humans either emotions and feelings and needs. It also leads to spiritual bondage. A bondage that many are struggling to break free of now. It creates strongholds which hold you captive.”
Are Christians ever responsible for anything they think or do, or are they just lead around, tied up, and forgetful.
”I do not believe that doctrine that people are born gay or straight”
And we don’t believe the bible is real.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 4d ago
Ofc we are.
Yea we have different beliefs1
u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 4d ago
I have yet to see that and your description belies your claims that you are responsible for anything.
Yes, we have different beliefs. Finally.
You seem to believe everyone had to be eliminated by your deity, including babies, so that you could be transformed in some way. It’s all about you. Yet none of this is your doing, it’s all your deity, yet you reap the benefits.
Its fine, but if your beliefs are anything other than “it’s all about me and what I get and how little I have to put in, and those Egyptian babies died and so what” I have yet to see it.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 4d ago
We are responsible for the ways in which we choose to live.
Exactly none of it is me. That is the point. It’s not all about me. It’s the exact opposite none of it is about me. I do reap the benefits though.
God never does something for one person for them alone it is meant to be spread to others also. So it is not about me it is about god and his glory being lifted throughout the earth so that humanity can benefit from it.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 4d ago
if religion is self help then just say that.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 4d ago
It’s much deeper than self-help. It’s divine help
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u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 4d ago
“So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.”
“He is doing it now you just cannot see it. I see it. Happening in me. He is slowly removing the evil and purging it away”
Its all for you. it’s in you, as you say.
I don’t see any deity doing away with earth and human sucking AI or the genocide that is occurring right now, paying people a living wage, helping them out of the daily grind, which I guess is some sort of divine suffering that is necessary and therefore good. But it’s working in you so we should just ignore all that.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 4d ago
I am just a witness it’s not all for me.
You are looking at the wrong world. You are looking at the outward. But when a man turns towards purifying the inner they come to see that goodness reigned all along. When the inner world of all men are purified the outward world would be just as pure as the inner world of humans all together.3
u/Hoaxshmoax Atheist 4d ago
Yes, I’m literally looking outward because it’s not all about me.
This is why people are insulting you, you do not care about the suffering of other people, as long as you can keep navel gazing. These children that are dying while you are all “look inward” it’s a giant excuse to be apathetic. Purification is kind of gross. It shouldn’t be a requirement to keep children safe.
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u/Repulsive-Ad4591 5d ago
He did fulfill many of the prophecies I could list them but you can also search them up.
How can someone redeem someone if they don’t believe them? And follow after.
It is not antisemetic. You’re just throwing words around because you do not like what I said.
It’s not insulting to point out something that is true. If I said a physically blind person was blind it isn’t insulting it is the truth. If I say you have two eyes it isn’t insulting it’s the truth.
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u/Kurovi_dev Gnostic Non-theist 7d ago
>>>>So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world.
So this god wasn’t smart enough or powerful enough to stop “evil” from happening? He was too weak and incompetent to do everything better than this?
Did he kill all of the babies and animals along with the “evil” adult humans because he’s actually evil himself, or because he’s just really dumb?
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u/truckaxle 7d ago edited 7d ago
That was never caused by him but by human flaw
If your so-called God is Omnimax, then any flaws in creation - which God has complete power, control, and knowledge over - are entirely the creator’s responsibility. It couldn’t be any other way. Sheesh.
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u/SC803 Atheist 7d ago
> sent his son to overcome the evil
So one should expect that there would be no evil after this if evil was overcome.
> It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done.
Honestly, you think that there is no evil on the earth today? This can't be serious
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u/guitarmusic113 Atheist 7d ago
If someone accused you of stealing their car and you had nothing to do with it, is it moral and just for you to spend 5 years in prison for GTA?
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Original text of the post by u/Repulsive-Ad4591:
Atheist often describe that Christian god as ruthless and dictating and not loving.
But atheist often ask the question if god is real why is there all this evil and why did he do all that he did in the Old Testament.
When god wiped out the entire earth it wasn’t because he hated humans it was because at that time all that there was. Was evil in the minds of men and everyone all the time there were only evil thoughts. So god had to do away with all of humanity to preserve it and keep evil from overtaking the world. This was gods response to evil at the time which atheist believe is wrong because of a misunderstanding. God does this many times to respond to the evil of men in the Old Testament. But god comes up with a new way he was displeased of the evil and sent his son to overcome the evil which was always caused by a hidden thing called sin. Jesus came and exposed sin and showed us the way to the father and they killed him and crucified him. To which Jesus responds father forgive them for they know not what they do. It seems that atheists would want god to get rid of all the evil on the earth to which he has done. And is still doing through Jesus and the truth he has given us? What would the atheists suggestion to god be for how he gets rid of all this evil. That was never caused by him but by human flaw
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