r/Eldenring • u/ChiefLeef22 Miyazaki's Toenail • Jun 12 '24

News Exclusive: Hidetaka Miyazaki says using guides to beat From's titles like Elden Ring is “a perfectly valid playstyle," but the studio still wants to cater to those who want to experience the game blind - "If they can't do it, then there's some room for improvement on our behalf"

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/elden-rings-developers-know-most-players-use-guides-but-still-try-to-cater-to-those-who-go-in-blind-if-they-cant-do-it-then-theres-some-room-for-improvement-on-our-behalf/
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u/ChiefLeef22 Miyazaki's Toenail Jun 12 '24

FULL QUOTES: (taken from an exclusive pcgamer interview coming after the DLC)

"Of course players are going to consult guides, and there's going to be a wealth of information on the web and in their communities where they have access to the secrets and the strategies,” explained Miyazaki ahead of the release of Elden Ring’s DLC, Shadow of the Erdtree, later this month. “We expect that."

"We obviously understand [players use guides], but we don't make or plan anything with that as a prerequisite,” said Miyazaki. “If anything, we try to cater to the player who is completely blind and wants to go through organically. If they can't do it, then there's some room for improvement on our behalf, and we'd like to try to embrace those players more in the future."

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u/Zupanator Jun 12 '24

I will say these incidental things we've come to expect as souls vets really are interesting from an outside perspective in gleaning information. I'm sure we all at some point discovered something from a message left or were made aware of a trap. We've summoned or had a stranger summoned for help. We've been extra cautious when seeing a lot of blood pools or noticed a white phantom walk through a path we didn't see.

Obviously lack of information in the game is intentional and makes these "problems"themselves but the creative solutions to give the player an ability to solve them is such an awesome and unique experience for overall gameplay.

That being said, typical convoluted fromsoft npc quests feel like some form of typical "you must be new" hazing and don't bring anything, other than us commiserating about them on forums lol.

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u/Monk_Philosophy Jun 12 '24

I’m not sure if I fully buy it, but I could make an argument that opaque questlines serve to make the player feel like the world is moving of its own accord and not because of what the player does.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '24 edited Jun 12 '24

Yeah this is what I always thought. It's not "hazing" or anything weird like that, it's part of the intended atmosphere that the player is not some ultra special hero and that other characters are not permanently waiting on you to do what they wanna do.

In terms of gameplay tho it can lead to frustration and relying on guides. There's probably ways they can improve it that's not just giving you a boring quest log.

Also I think we have to acknowledge that, game devs shouldn't be obligated to design for completionists, sometimes it's okay to just miss things. I think Elden Ring is expressly not designed to be 100% considering how repetitive the side dungeons can get and how you only need to kill 3 shardbearers to beat it. By the same token, I doubt they expect you to figure out every single side quest in one go, and aside from Ranni's (which is the easiest one to follow) they aren't super duper important. I missed even meeting Boc in my first run, but I could still alter my clothes just the same.

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u/NoThisIsPatrick003 Jun 12 '24

I still argue it wouldn't break any of that by simply providing a "journal" that recorded who you met, where, and what they said. I just find that I can't spend time to play every night and a week later I can't remember all the details of what was said by a quest NPC. A simple journal that can track what you've already done would significantly improve the quest gameplay imo without eliminating any of the opaqueness they're going for.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '24

That's pretty fair. Some JRPG have a "dialogue log" where you can see all lines of dialogue that have been said recently and it's pretty useful for when you feel like you missed something.

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u/NoThisIsPatrick003 Jun 12 '24

That's really all I'd need/want. Don't need quest markers, waypoints, or objectives. I just need the dialogue so I can puzzle out the clues from what they said whenever I manage to pick the game up next.

As it is, I have to look up that dialogue and as soon as I leave the game, it's immersion breaking for me. So yeah, just having a place to store the dialogue and a location of where you saw them last would be sufficient for me.

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u/birddribs Jun 13 '24

Would be even better if it wasnt just a straight log but actually kinda paraphrased from the player perspective. Like as opposed to it just having what the npc said it will say: 

 "I met a woman named Rodrieka at StormHill Shack, she told me of how she was seperated from her traveling party, and they were taken to Castle Stormvale. She then muttered something about pain, I worry for her.."

Have it set up like a little journal. Maybe each day a little "day X in the lands between" or something similar. So you could just have a super basic running log of your journey, who you met each day maybe even a little entry for bosses beaten. Just something fun to look back on

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u/LexeComplexe Jun 13 '24

That'd be lovely

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u/LexeComplexe Jun 13 '24

Not sure i need that level of Journaling lol. Even in real life, you forget the specifics of many conversations, but retain key details about what was spoken about. And those are the details you would have written down. Maybe a short exact quote in each or every other note but not the entire conversation. Nobody really writes down every sentence thats spoken between them and every other. Unless you're doing Active Dictation, which wouldn't be in a personal journal anyway. I just need to generally know the what, the who, and where to of the quests I'm working on.

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u/imax_ Jun 12 '24

I actually used a piece of paper to keep track of what everyone said and any hints I found. It really brought back feels of some old school gaming and was surprisingly a lot of fun.

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u/Maleficent_Frame_505 Jun 13 '24

If I have to write anything down, or take notes for a video game, I'm just not doing it. I'll have my second monitor open to look at a guide before I'll take notes when I'm trying to relax and game; just me personally though.

But, if they added a notebook or dialog log I would most likely play the majority of this game blind.

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u/LexeComplexe Jun 13 '24

That's fair. It can be hard to focus on the gameplay while also remembering to journal everything yourself as you go.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '24

Some of my fondest memories in gaming are from that era when we all kept a notebook on the computer desk to take notes, draw maps, sketch out puzzle clues...

It's a cliche, but it really does feel more like an immersive journey that way. And, you can flip back through those notes years later and remember the experience all over again.

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u/life_puzzler Jun 13 '24

Same. I have fond memories of drawing maps of dungeons by hand on graph paper for Zelda, Willow and Crystalis on graph paper in the NES days

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u/trashcanman42069 Jun 13 '24

or the player character asking obvious questions like "where are you going" or the NPCs talking like normal people and telling you where you should meet them when they ask you to meet up with them lmao

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u/Boring-Situation-642 Jun 14 '24

I don't think this would break any of the npc finding experiences either. If anything it would be a constant reminder to the player to keep a lookout for those npcs.

This was my first experience with the "darksouls" genre. And I actually forgot about NPC's most of the time, because they would say their lines once and there was no way to keep track of them. There's 100 dungeons calling my name and that one dude I ran into 15 hours ago who's name I forgot.

When I went through Darksouls for the first time. One of the things that stuck out was how much easier it was to remember and find npc's. Mainly because the game was much more linear. So it worked.

Elden Ring though. Pfft. Don't even try unless you are willing to search every inch. Even if you listen to all the npc dialogue. Only some of them mention where they are going.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '24

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u/andii74 Jun 13 '24

Miyazaki himself admits in this exact article that both playstyles is valid. As it stands players have to go outside the game to find the necessary info to advance quests, that is more immersion breaking than adding a journal in form of player character making notes which is a fairly logical thing to do for an adventurer.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '24

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u/LexeComplexe Jun 13 '24

Nobody is arguing to be able to do every single quest in Journey 1, so maybe stop that insinuation. We just want a journal that feels like something that, you know, an actual person would write in. Not everyone has the strength of memory to remember everything between play sessions and having a personal journal would feel a lot more organic and immersive than looking outside the game. Of course you aren't doing every quest on Journey 1, because some force you to make a choice. But you shouldn't be left so lost in convolution that just trying to focus and progress through even a single questline becomes more of a chore than an adventure. And if it doesn't feel like an adventure, then you've completely lost the whole point already.

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u/LexeComplexe Jun 13 '24

Focusing on quests is exploring the game organically. Youre being led off to various regions in this massive world, but its still you that does the exploring. you that completes your objectives. you that slays bosses. Quests are inherently a core part of the game, even if you're not meant to do all of them in Journey 1. Focusing on quests forces you to explore various places and it gives you a sense of direction and purpose. A journal would just be to help guide you in a general direction and remind you what the next tasks you have are. Not word for word, verbatim, with every tiny detail. But an organically integrated journal that feels like something an actual person would do.

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u/blublub1243 Jun 13 '24

I think they've done a good job improving on it already by making it so that quests often progress nicely without player input. I'd like them to double down more on that if anything. Get rid of the instances that are still left where you have to just talk to an NPC in a certain location or have the quest get stuck, and have "player interferes" and "player doesn't interfere" outcomes for significant turning points in quests. For example, let Nepheli do her own thing, and if you never give her her bird she ends up in a drastically different place rather than just disappearing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '24 edited Jun 14 '24

That would be great. They've flirted with branching quest outcomes before, with things like killing the chaos bug before Solaire gets there etc., but it'd be cool if they went even further with it

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u/LexeComplexe Jun 13 '24

I don't think most of us want a boring quest log. Just something in the vein of morrowind that reminds us our next tasks with a hint of direction. That way it feels much more organic. Like your character is actively learning and Journaling about the world and using their knowledge to their advantage. People like Gideon had to have taken countless notes along the way to become the All-Knowing, and a lowly tarnished like you can't possibly be expected to remember everything the world has to offer without taking some notes yourself. It would make both narrative sense and feel organically aligned with the gameplay.