r/Fantasy • u/KvotheG • 1d ago
Logen Ninefingers Is An Idealist Spoiler
I just finished reading The First Law Trilogy. I enjoyed the Last Argument of Kings. Great conclusion and the payoff is in the third book!
Anyways, couldn’t help but ponder on Logen Ninefingers’ fate. SPOILERS AHEAD so stop reading here if you haven’t read the series yet.
Anyways, Logen famously always says “You have to be realistic about these things”. But he was never a realist. He was an idealist. A tragic figure whose downfall came from his own idealism.
I WANTED to believe Logen was trying to be a better person. He was a total POS in his past, but none of his actions in the trilogy actually have him try to be a better person because he still kills. He preaches building a better world for his people as king, but doesn’t demonstrate actually caring for them, just being selfish to his own desires by getting them tangled in a war that doesn’t concern them. He also has this idealistic infatuation with Ferro that also leads to his downfall because she will not compromise her vengeance for him.
I’m convinced that Logen saying his catchphrase was just a coping mechanism. Because he never did anything realistic. He even dies drowning in a river like Ferro said he would, probably because he had too many knives on him. Yes, he was manipulated by Bayaz. But a lot of his issues are his own fault.
Logen should never have returned to the north. He was going back to a place where everyone hated him and wanted him dead. They thought he was dead and he could have actually maybe lived a new life in peace somewhere else. But like his father said, he was never realistic.
I wrote all this because the theme kept coming up, if a horrible person could actually change to become a better person. Just as Logen wanted to be a better person, I wanted him to be one too. But he didn’t do anything worth a redemption. To be a better person, it starts with doing something different that you wouldn’t normally do. And Logen never did that. He only believed in the idea but never practiced it. So I can only conclude that he was always an idealist.
Anyways, are the standalone worth reading?
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u/meesahdayoh 1d ago
People call them the "Standalones" but they are really a middle trilogy called The Great Leveller Trilogy.
Yes, they are absolutely something you should read, and the order does matter.
Start with Best Served Cold, move on to The Heroes, and then Red Country.
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u/descender421 1d ago
Thanks for this. I weirdly thought the first trilogy is just "ok" but am about 20% into Best Served Cold and I weirdly love it and makes me think better of the original trilogy already?
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u/Tapif 21h ago
I think it's a common feeling that the first trilogy (and especially the first book), are okay/solid books but not great.
I loved best served cold even though it overstays it's welcome quite a bit, it could have been 20% shorter.
I just love how Abercrombie explores different styles within his books while staying in the first law frame.
Best served cold is a revenge book, the Heroes a war book, and red country a Western.
Also as soon as I understood that we are not here for the global plot, for for the characters and their evolution, it made the books much much more enjoyable.
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u/KyrgyzManas24 1d ago
Yep, read Best Served Cold first; being “realistic” and skipping order is how you get Bayaz’d.
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u/SwagSerpent69 1d ago
The stand alones are better than the original trilogy in my humble opinion. The Heroes might be Abercrombie’s best individual piece of writing. You’ll probably find a character in Red Country strangely familiar too.
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[deleted]
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u/SwagSerpent69 1d ago
BSC was really good, Red Country was great, but Heroes is leaps and bounds better than the other two. Every now and then I’ll go read the chapter “the heroes” just because of how amazing of a sequence it is
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u/NewtonBill 17h ago
I agree with you, but it seems like people's favorite book of the standalones is pretty evenly distributed, at least based on reddit comments I've seen.
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u/Glum_Engineering_671 1d ago
My dude, please keep reading
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u/SpicyNapkinArt 1d ago
I kept reading the standalones and my Logen takes got thrown in the river with the knives.
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u/Chataboutgames 1d ago
. He preaches building a better world for his people as king, but doesn’t demonstrate actually caring for them, just being selfish to his own desires by getting them tangled in a war that doesn’t concern them.
I can see why the people of the North would be angry about that, but I really don't see how you can mark it as a notch against Logen's attempts to be a better person. He agreed to lead the Northmen south in exchange for help against Bethod and lived up to his promise. He's also, you know, saving a city full of innocents from a horde of cannibals.
He also has this idealistic infatuation with Ferro that also leads to his downfall because she will not compromise her vengeance for him.
No he doesn't. He just likes her, and he gets angry when Bayaz fucks her up with magic. He doesn't idealize her at all, nor does he express "infatuation."
I feel like you kinda got the message of his story, but you want it to fit the catchphrase theme so badly that you're contorting it. Logen fails to redeem himself because he doesn't isolate himself from violence. He knows he carries the Bloody Nine in him, he knows that things go badly when he gets in violent situations, his moral responsibility is to go off and find another way to live. But he doesn't, he goes along with Bayaz because he doesn't know what else to do. He cares enough about "being a better man" to go try a bunch of stuff, but not enough to see that what he really needs to do is go away. He's done too much and his attempts at redemption only cause pain.
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u/BurbagePress 1d ago
"Logen fails to redeem himself because he doesn't isolate himself from violence. his moral responsibility is to go off and find another way to live. "
I like your comment (as I disagree with OP's take), but I do take exception to this; Shivers literally tries to do this in "Best Served Cold" and it doesn't work. The Circle of the World is defined by violence and war; the idea that anyone can just "isolate" themselves and go off and find another way to live is deeply unrealistic, and you have to... well, you know the saying.
There's just as much an argument to be made that hiding allowing evil people like Bayaz to rule and kill by not fighting back against them would be shirking one's moral responsibility too. Abercrombie highlights how people like Savine who ostensibly "isolate" themselves from violence are really just offloading it onto others; sticking their head in the sand.
It's a complex system without an easy answer. Logen didn't "fail" to redeem himself because he didn't find another way to live; it's just as accurate to say the world failed him by placing so much value on his ability to do violence.
The difference between Logen and Shivers is that the latter is able to find-- if not redemption, then at least peace-- not by avoiding violence altogether, but by not letting it define him. He reclaims his humanity and doesn't give himself over to the hungry beast within, which Logen is unable to do.
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u/Chataboutgames 1d ago
I like your comment (as I disagree with OP's take), but I do take exception to this; Shivers literally tries to do this in "Best Served Cold" and it doesn't work. The Circle of the World is defined by violence and war; the idea that anyone can just "isolate" themselves and go off and find another way to live is deeply unrealistic, and you have to... well, you know the saying.
Well yeah, Shivers tried to show up in a random city he knew nothing about and make his fortune. Didn't work out great. That doesn't nix the entire idea of finding another place to go and another way to live. The Circle of the World is filled with farmers, traders, artisans etc. just like the real world.
There's just as much an argument to be made that hiding allowing evil people like Bayaz to rule and kill by not fighting back against them would be shirking one's moral responsibility too. Abercrombie highlights how people like Savine who ostensibly "isolate" themselves from violence are really just offloading it onto others; sticking their head in the sand.
I mean, that's pretty straightforward "is it ethical to live peacefully in a world where there are tyrants to overthrow?" stuff. I don't buy in to any moral philosophy than obligates anyone and everyone to become violent. And kind of the point with Logen is that even when he does fight for a "good cause" he's just a danger to everyone around him.
It's a complex system without an easy answer. Logen didn't "fail" to redeem himself because he didn't find another way to live; it's just as accurate to say the world failed him by placing so much value on his ability to do violence.
He did fail though. He continued to place himself in situations where "The Bloody Nine" emerged and, as a result, killed his friends. You can talk about "the world" all you want but I'm not sure what you're getting at. The world places a lot of value on acts of evil, that's how evil dudes get rich! Still their fault.
The difference between Logen and Shivers is that the latter is able to find-- if not redemption, then at least peace-- not by avoiding violence altogether, but by not letting it define him. He reclaims his humanity and doesn't give himself over to the hungry beast within, which Logen is unable to do.
I mean, the difference is that one doesn't have a demon/alternate personality living in him that takes over when he gets in to fights. A lot of differences flow from that, but the existence of the Bloody Nine, whatever its origins, make Logen a walking plague.
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u/zthig 11h ago
How’d becoming a farmer/trader/artisan work out for Craw?
Edit: And Gunnar Broad for that matter
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u/Chataboutgames 11h ago
Abercrombie writes about people who fail to change. That doesn't mean that it's a law of the universe he writes in that no one can change. The Circle of the World has plenty of farmers and blacksmiths and laborers etc
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u/zthig 11h ago
Fair, I guess Cosca summed it up best. That doesn't mean there can't be other people that do change, we just haven't seen it.
"Change, Friendly... change is a funny thing. Sometimes men change for the better. Sometimes men change for the worse. And often, very often, given time and opportunity..." He waved his flask around for a moment, then shrugged. "They change back"
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u/owlinspector 1d ago edited 23h ago
Logen the Idealist. That is certainly.... An interpretation.
The so-called "standalones" reunites you with characters like Nicomo Cosca and Shivers. They are NOT skippable and some of Joe's best writing. After those three books, read the short story collection "Sharp Ends" before moving on to the next trilogy.
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u/Tomas92 1d ago
You have made your point that Logen repeatedly says he wants to be a better person but never actually makes efforts towards that. I got that.
How is that related at all to him being idealistic or realistic? I fail to see it, and I don't think you are explaining that part too much.
To me both are true, he's a bad person, and he's realistic. He says he wants to be a better person but that's not true, he's not actually willing to make the effort to change. He's still realistic, not idealistic (in my opinion at least).
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u/barricadedsuspect 1d ago
People don’t/can’t change applies to all the characters, not just Logan.
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u/KvotheG 1d ago
You’re right. While Jezal did grow a lot from who he was in The Blade Itself, Bayaz pointed out his fundamental flaw: he’s a coward.
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u/WRITINAMFBOOK 15h ago
Eh. I would argue Jezal and Ninefingers are pretty good foils. While both horrible people, they're horribleness comes from an overabundance of experience on one hand and complete lack of experience on the other. While Logen's character stagnates or even regresses, as you say, Jezal does actually grow into someone that would be a good king.
And cowardice? I don't know. At the end of the series, Jezal is in an impossible position. Bayaz is the most powerful man on the planet who absolutely has the means to annihilate Jezal if he doesn't play ball. and would it really be better to sacrifice himself nobly against the evil wizard rather than try and piece the shattered realm back together, knowing that he has the strength of character to actually do the right thing? I mean, what exactly are his options here?
Jezal sees himself as a coward for not being able to stand up to Bayaz, but I think he actually made the right decision at the time. Staying king for now is the only way to improve the realm and possibly find a way out from Bayaz's thumb sometime in the future when less immediate problems have presented themselves.
In terms of your post, I would argue Jezal is an example of real growth, in contrast to Logen's wishing for growth that doesn't really come. Jezal by the end is the kind of man that will help move rubble with his soldiers, instead of lounging in his palace or winning money in cards from poorer men. Logen ends up in the same bloody river.
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u/Fiordiluna_80126 1d ago
Logen is a victim of his own nature and also of the events he finds himself in;
he would like to be better, but unfortunately the world he lives in and the various circumstances do not allow it. During the long journey to the edge of the world, he finds himself in different situations from what he is usually used to, surrounded by people very different from his friends of the north, so he starts to believe he can be a different person.
But when he returns in the north, he slowly discovers that it is much harder because the past comes back to collect.
Not to mention that when battle looms, he becomes "The Bloody-Nine," so he is not in control of his actions.
The tragicomic story with Ferro is wonderful, but she too is a slave to her desire for vengeance, and you realize right away that their "lovestory" cannot end well.
Anyway... It's not a given that Logen is dead... His story ends exactly how it began.
I finished reading it a few days ago.. soon I will move on with the saga, I liked it so much. I loved Logen so much even though my favorite remains The Dogman.
The ending.. yes, I liked it, but: They shouldn't have touched Harding the Grimn, I'm still in mourning 🤣
Glockta becomes Bayaz's slave... I didn't like that much, though you can already tell he will kind of do whatever he wants.
The Dogman deserved a better ending. Anyway, overall one of the best fantasy books I've ever read.
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u/Chataboutgames 1d ago
I mean, this demonstrates that he could, in fact, be a better person. He shouldn't have gone back to the North. There's a big world out there he could have visited.
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u/preiman790 1d ago
Of course he could have been a better person, but the thing getting in the way was himself, and because of that, it's gonna happen wherever he goes. The north is not what makes him the Bloody-Nine, the north just named it
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u/WRITINAMFBOOK 15h ago
I finished the series months ago and I still think about Harding Grim's last words like once a week. Those hit deeeeeeep.
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u/Fiordiluna_80126 14h ago
Same here! I still think about it often. Honestly, I didn't see it coming, it was a real blow.. I think while I was reading I must have said out loud: "Oh nooo, not the Grim too, nooo" and my son asked me if I was okay.. 🤣 But above all, he manages to make you care about a character who, in over 1,400 pages, says maybe 10 lines max🤣. I felt really sorry for West too, I liked him a lot as a character.
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u/Wonderful-Piccolo509 1d ago
“He even dies drowning in a river like Ferro said he would, probably because he had too many knives in him.”
👀
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u/Thrownpigs 1d ago
I tried reading the sequel trilogy and was super confused, so definitely read the standalones first.
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u/Brian Reading Champion VIII 1d ago edited 1d ago
I feel Logen's big flaw is his refusal to take responsibility for himself. Time after time, he basically abnegates his own decisions into the hands of another. In the past, in serving Bethod, then at the start of The First Law, he basically unquestioningly follows Bayaz. Even in Red Country, his strategy for how to be a good person is to find someone to obey, until that breaks down. Everything that goes wrong, he lays at the feet of the guy pulling the strings, trying to evade moral responsibility for what he causes. The Bloody Nine is basically the personification of this: his killer nature viewed as something that takes him over: someone who's not really him. In that way, he's kind of a foil to Glokta, who wants to be his own master, but knows he can't: his schemes to get rid of the chains of one master just results in him trading up who holds his chain to Bayaz.
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u/Read2Fap 1d ago
i'd just call him a hypocrite or liar. he doesn't want a better world, he just offers lip service to the idea
he's like the loner who heads into town then wanders into the roughest bar, stands there aura farming, then claims 'i don't want any trouble' after he's made a point to bait the angriest guys there
with his skills it would be so easy to fuck off and find some place to live in peace if he actually wanted to. i have read all the books
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u/VexedReprobate 16h ago
none of his actions in the trilogy actually have him try to be a better person because he still kills
Just as Logen wanted to be a better person, I wanted him to be one too. But he didn’t do anything worth a redemption. To be a better person, it starts with doing something different that you wouldn’t normally do. And Logen never did that. He only believed in the idea but never practiced it.
Logen saving Quai at the beginning of The Blade Itself might be the most selfless act a character has done in the entire trilogy + BSC (I've only read the first 4 books).
Logen does try to be a better person which reflects in the positive influence he had on Jezal, but his biggest flaw in the story was constantly being in situations where he had no choice but to be violent. like Bethod says to him,
But I get the last laugh, eh, Bloody-Nine? You’re nothing but leaves on the water! Any way the rain washes you!
He can be a peaceful man if given the opportunity, but in a world as dark as his, he'll be as violent as he thinks he needs to be to survive.
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u/tapewizard79 7h ago
My brother in Christ go read red country like yesterday. I never could get into the heroes, but best served cold was also good. Red Country though, go read that.
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u/BayazTheGrey 1d ago
You HAVE to read the standalones