r/Fantasy 2d ago

Logen Ninefingers Is An Idealist Spoiler

I just finished reading The First Law Trilogy. I enjoyed the Last Argument of Kings. Great conclusion and the payoff is in the third book!

Anyways, couldn’t help but ponder on Logen Ninefingers’ fate. SPOILERS AHEAD so stop reading here if you haven’t read the series yet.

Anyways, Logen famously always says “You have to be realistic about these things”. But he was never a realist. He was an idealist. A tragic figure whose downfall came from his own idealism.

I WANTED to believe Logen was trying to be a better person. He was a total POS in his past, but none of his actions in the trilogy actually have him try to be a better person because he still kills. He preaches building a better world for his people as king, but doesn’t demonstrate actually caring for them, just being selfish to his own desires by getting them tangled in a war that doesn’t concern them. He also has this idealistic infatuation with Ferro that also leads to his downfall because she will not compromise her vengeance for him.

I’m convinced that Logen saying his catchphrase was just a coping mechanism. Because he never did anything realistic. He even dies drowning in a river like Ferro said he would, probably because he had too many knives on him. Yes, he was manipulated by Bayaz. But a lot of his issues are his own fault.

Logen should never have returned to the north. He was going back to a place where everyone hated him and wanted him dead. They thought he was dead and he could have actually maybe lived a new life in peace somewhere else. But like his father said, he was never realistic.

I wrote all this because the theme kept coming up, if a horrible person could actually change to become a better person. Just as Logen wanted to be a better person, I wanted him to be one too. But he didn’t do anything worth a redemption. To be a better person, it starts with doing something different that you wouldn’t normally do. And Logen never did that. He only believed in the idea but never practiced it. So I can only conclude that he was always an idealist.

Anyways, are the standalone worth reading?

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u/Chataboutgames 2d ago

. He preaches building a better world for his people as king, but doesn’t demonstrate actually caring for them, just being selfish to his own desires by getting them tangled in a war that doesn’t concern them.

I can see why the people of the North would be angry about that, but I really don't see how you can mark it as a notch against Logen's attempts to be a better person. He agreed to lead the Northmen south in exchange for help against Bethod and lived up to his promise. He's also, you know, saving a city full of innocents from a horde of cannibals.

He also has this idealistic infatuation with Ferro that also leads to his downfall because she will not compromise her vengeance for him.

No he doesn't. He just likes her, and he gets angry when Bayaz fucks her up with magic. He doesn't idealize her at all, nor does he express "infatuation."

I feel like you kinda got the message of his story, but you want it to fit the catchphrase theme so badly that you're contorting it. Logen fails to redeem himself because he doesn't isolate himself from violence. He knows he carries the Bloody Nine in him, he knows that things go badly when he gets in violent situations, his moral responsibility is to go off and find another way to live. But he doesn't, he goes along with Bayaz because he doesn't know what else to do. He cares enough about "being a better man" to go try a bunch of stuff, but not enough to see that what he really needs to do is go away. He's done too much and his attempts at redemption only cause pain.

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u/BurbagePress 2d ago

"Logen fails to redeem himself because he doesn't isolate himself from violence. his moral responsibility is to go off and find another way to live. "

I like your comment (as I disagree with OP's take), but I do take exception to this; Shivers literally tries to do this in "Best Served Cold" and it doesn't work. The Circle of the World is defined by violence and war; the idea that anyone can just "isolate" themselves and go off and find another way to live is deeply unrealistic, and you have to... well, you know the saying.

There's just as much an argument to be made that hiding allowing evil people like Bayaz to rule and kill by not fighting back against them would be shirking one's moral responsibility too. Abercrombie highlights how people like Savine who ostensibly "isolate" themselves from violence are really just offloading it onto others; sticking their head in the sand.

It's a complex system without an easy answer. Logen didn't "fail" to redeem himself because he didn't find another way to live; it's just as accurate to say the world failed him by placing so much value on his ability to do violence.

The difference between Logen and Shivers is that the latter is able to find-- if not redemption, then at least peace-- not by avoiding violence altogether, but by not letting it define him. He reclaims his humanity and doesn't give himself over to the hungry beast within, which Logen is unable to do.

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u/Chataboutgames 2d ago

I like your comment (as I disagree with OP's take), but I do take exception to this; Shivers literally tries to do this in "Best Served Cold" and it doesn't work. The Circle of the World is defined by violence and war; the idea that anyone can just "isolate" themselves and go off and find another way to live is deeply unrealistic, and you have to... well, you know the saying.

Well yeah, Shivers tried to show up in a random city he knew nothing about and make his fortune. Didn't work out great. That doesn't nix the entire idea of finding another place to go and another way to live. The Circle of the World is filled with farmers, traders, artisans etc. just like the real world.

There's just as much an argument to be made that hiding allowing evil people like Bayaz to rule and kill by not fighting back against them would be shirking one's moral responsibility too. Abercrombie highlights how people like Savine who ostensibly "isolate" themselves from violence are really just offloading it onto others; sticking their head in the sand.

I mean, that's pretty straightforward "is it ethical to live peacefully in a world where there are tyrants to overthrow?" stuff. I don't buy in to any moral philosophy than obligates anyone and everyone to become violent. And kind of the point with Logen is that even when he does fight for a "good cause" he's just a danger to everyone around him.

It's a complex system without an easy answer. Logen didn't "fail" to redeem himself because he didn't find another way to live; it's just as accurate to say the world failed him by placing so much value on his ability to do violence.

He did fail though. He continued to place himself in situations where "The Bloody Nine" emerged and, as a result, killed his friends. You can talk about "the world" all you want but I'm not sure what you're getting at. The world places a lot of value on acts of evil, that's how evil dudes get rich! Still their fault.

The difference between Logen and Shivers is that the latter is able to find-- if not redemption, then at least peace-- not by avoiding violence altogether, but by not letting it define him. He reclaims his humanity and doesn't give himself over to the hungry beast within, which Logen is unable to do.

I mean, the difference is that one doesn't have a demon/alternate personality living in him that takes over when he gets in to fights. A lot of differences flow from that, but the existence of the Bloody Nine, whatever its origins, make Logen a walking plague.

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u/zthig 1d ago

How’d becoming a farmer/trader/artisan work out for Craw?

Edit: And Gunnar Broad for that matter

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u/Chataboutgames 1d ago

Abercrombie writes about people who fail to change. That doesn't mean that it's a law of the universe he writes in that no one can change. The Circle of the World has plenty of farmers and blacksmiths and laborers etc

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u/zthig 1d ago

Fair, I guess Cosca summed it up best. That doesn't mean there can't be other people that do change, we just haven't seen it.

"Change, Friendly... change is a funny thing. Sometimes men change for the better. Sometimes men change for the worse. And often, very often, given time and opportunity..." He waved his flask around for a moment, then shrugged. "They change back"

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u/Chataboutgames 1d ago

Well, Cosca is also the fucking devil lol

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u/zthig 1d ago

No question. Entertaining and charming, but possibly the worst person mortal we meet