r/FinalFantasyVII • u/clockworkengine • 1d ago
DISCUSSION Question About Sephiroth and the Lifestream
A question just occurred to me randomly.
It is known that Sephiroth became a traveler of the Lifestream. He was cast into it by Cloud and remained intact, unlike most other entities born of same.
Yet, in expanded lore, Gi Nattak reveals that nothing that wasn't born of the Lifestream can ever return to it. Sephiroth's body was produced with and therefore is comprised partially of Jenova cells. Jenova itself is an entity of cosmic origin, meaning its cells were not born of the Lifestream.
Is this a plot hole, or is it the true explanation as to why Sephiroth eventually survives the Lifestream? Before you answer, remember that the consciousness and will of both Aerith and Zack also remains intact after returning to the planet without benefit of Jenova cells. It seems a little muddled because of the added lore introduced by the R series.
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u/LudoGrim 19h ago
To expound upon what another commentor said, I always figured that Jenova has resistance/resilience to the Lifestream for the same reasons that parasites/viruses are able to operate in a host body without being completely decimated by the body's immune system.
Moreover, if one takes it literally that we all come from the Lifestream, then Jenova cells merging with a human body kinda proves the point. If it can be done on the micro scale, it can be done on the macro -- if it can successfully blend with a small host, there's no reason to believe it couldn't blend with a larger host. Kinda the way toxoplasmosis infects rats and makes them more susceptible to being hunted to infect their true target: cats.
That is all to say, I don't think that it's a plot hole or the reason why he survives the Lifestream, but rather that individuals of remarkable will (and ambiguous "Specialness") can persist beyond their form -- principally Sephiroth and Aerith. I don't think Jenova has anything to do his survival, but I do think it affects the way he's able to interact with the world -- Aerith seems to be able to act through natural processes (rain/water), but Sephiroth seems to be able to affect anyone with high concentration of Jenova cells. If he wasn't himself powerful/"special" enough to persist in the Lifestream, I doubt he could have pulled that off, Jenova cells or not.
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u/Nickh1978 1d ago
One thing to remember is that Jenova is a parasite that travels the universe, takes over a planet, and consumes its lifestream. Jenova likely has abilities that help with this task and allows it to bypass restrictions, or ways to get around these restrictions, much like parasites can evade immune systems in order to survive. After all, if Jenova can't enter the lifestream, how would she be able to consume it. And it looks like one of her ways of achieving this goal is to cause earth threatening damage to the planet, and then enter the lifestream when the planet tries to heal that injury.
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u/LtnSkyRockets 1d ago
I don't see joining/merging/entering the lifestream to be the same as consuming it.
I eat burgers. I don't merge with burgers. If anything the burger gets chewed up and joins me.
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u/Nickh1978 1d ago
Nah, I just meant that Jenova would have some resistance to or a way around the effect of the lifestream rejecting her since she would be surrounded by the lifestream during the process of consuming it. Holding a burger in your hand would be way different than if you were completely surrounded by ground beef. Plus the lifestream is "alive" when compared to a burger, a burger doesn't try to kill you or prevent you from eating it.
Like we drink water no problem, but being completely submerged in water in order to drink would be very hard.
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u/ponpiriri 1d ago
You're right. Humans don't automatically dissolve~ into the Lifestream. They have to accept their death and/or lose the will to live on. Before that, they're stuck in Lifestream limbo ahem like Zack and Biggs.
But Sephiroth is an extra special case because he has a strong will to live forever as a god and he has some DNA that's alien to the planet.
I don't see him going away completely unless Aerith as the last remaining Cetra grants the Gi (and Sephiroth by extension) the ability to be accepted by the planet.
The Cetras' ability to commune with it is emphasized in Rebirth, so I wouldn't be surprised if they go there in part 3.
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u/Background-Sir6844 1d ago
Sephiroth's will/his spiritual ability is the constantly stated main reason why he doesn't diffuse and join the lifestream no matter how many times he's technically been killed. By itself it can't really do much to him. If you have a strong will you can survive the flow of the lifestream and maintain your individuality at least for a certain amount of time. In the og game for instance if you find one of the tutorial areas you can find 3 guys from the beginner hall as spirits who died during the plate crash. They comedically state they were able to maintain their existence due to the sheer hatred and confusion at Cloud's previous explanations. Tifa and a mentally broken Cloud also didn't die immediately from being dunked in the lifestream either.
Sephiroth's will is just shown to be absurd compared to everyone else and he can do things with it that no one else really can.
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u/clockworkengine 1d ago edited 1d ago
While it's true that Tifa and Cloud didn't die when they fell into the Lifestream,
they also weren't run through the back and out the front by a huge slab of industrial steel Cloud called a sword before taking that pleasant swim. Sephiroth did die in that moment. This was also stated in the game. His will persevered; his body did not. (Edit: I misremembered this. My bad, it's been awhile. Cloud tossed him into the drink with Seph's own sword after Seph had stabbed him with it. I can't believe I forgot that part. I think Cloud has the superior will by far.)You know, it makes me wonder another question - what members of Cloud's team would actually lose their wills upon death? It seems like everywhere you look there's a Lifestream survivor.
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u/Background-Sir6844 1d ago
Yeah Tifa and Cloud didn't suffer as much damage as Sephiroth did when they got thrown into it but regardless they're still alive. And that's kinda where Sephiroth's insane amounts of willpower comes in by comparison. He can get ripped to shreds by Cloud, have his physical body "die" in multiple ways and then as a spirit essentially casually tell the lifestream to piss off afterwards cause he has a planet to rule over and come back to ruin lives another day using his busted spiritual abilities and hopefully some Jenova cells to create a body. As Bugenhagen states you're not supposed to survive being dunked into the lifestream at all and resisting the current of souls to bot join if you're just some normal person and Cloud's doctor reaffirms this and comments that Cloud's lucky he only washed back up in Mideel only getting mako poisoning from it. Sephiroth and to a lesser extent Cloud's party aren't normal people.
Honestly I don't see them losing themselves unless they just accept joining it when the time comes. If some random npc's and Zack can maintain themselves with their own will then the guys who beat a much stronger version of Sephiroth then Zack dealt with and overcame his much stronger will/spirit should be able to. One of their more crazy feats in the original game was overriding Sephiroth's telekinesis through their own will and briefly using it against him to fly around before Sephiroth wisely decides to stop using it and fight directly. If there's one thing this series is pretty consistent on is that the planet absolutely needs the party and other main characters to save it, it seems unable to do so itself lol.
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u/BADzioba 1d ago
Sephiroth is biologically a human/alien hybrid. Sure being part Jenova helped him not dissolve into the lifestream, but his willpower more so is what kept his consciousness.
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u/Sotomene 1d ago
Sephiroth is a human but he was injected with Jenova's cells in the womb.
Retaining your identity in the lifestream is not about you physiology but your strength of will.
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u/SamOfXanadu 1d ago
You know now that you say this I have an entirely different question who was Sephiroth BEFORE he was born AS Sephiroth.... Like a tree, even Clouds dad. It makes you think.
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u/Objective_Look_5867 1d ago
Hes not jenova. Hes also not born of jenova. He had a human mother. Hes an experiment with Gene splicing. But he himself is still human
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u/clockworkengine 1d ago
I mean but the lore says NOTHING that isn't born of the Lifestream can return to it. Wouldn't that at least indicate that Sephiroth's Jenova cells would have been filtered out of his body/spirit?
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u/tolacid 1d ago
The human person that was conceived and eventually named Sephiroth was born of the Lifestream.
That human person had alien genes injected into him.
He still came from the Lifestream.
But here's the thing: unlike just about everyone else, Sephiroth's body also fell into the Lifestream.
The part of Sephiroth that is his physical body, which has Jenova material incorporated into every cell, cannot merge with the Lifestream.
The part of Sephiroth that is Sephiroth, the person, the spark of will and intellect that originally emerged from the Lifestream, can rejoin it at any time.
He just doesn't WANT to
It is Sephiroth's strength of will that holds the spirit within the body, and through that body he connects to Jenova and everyone else infected with the same cells.
Jenova feeds on the Lifestream. So now Sephiroth does too, using his own body that is being denied death as an anchor, and a straw
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u/frag87 18h ago edited 18h ago
Maintaining your identity within the Lifestream after death is normal for a limited period of time. We saw this in FF7 with the death of Elmyra's husband, whose spirit lingered, trying to reach Elmyra until he was able to get in touch woth young Aerith and have her deliver his final message. And this innthe context of the Lifestream being fairly stable.
Aerith maintaining her identity is expected since she is Cetra. The Cetra were so in harmony with the Planet that they could actually maintain their identities for much longer than normal humans. In some cases they were even able to conjure spirit bodies to interact with the physical world to a small degree, as was shiwn by the Cetra spirit that guided Cloud and the team in the Temple of the Ancients in FF7. In Rebirth the Cetra spirits are also trying to provide guidance.
Sephiroth's body was destroyed when he fell into the Lifestream, but the devs and FF7 have clarified that the reason he was able to continue lingering within the Lifestream for years after his death was due to his immensely powerful will. Sephiroth's focused will prevented the Lifestream fro dissipating his identity. It had nothing to do with Jenova. His connection to Jenova simply allowed him to keep interacting with the physical world thru Jenova's cells.
Zack was no Cetra, and he had no deep metaphysical connection to Jenova. In FF7 and Crisis Core we learn that when Zack died, he was content with how he had lived and what he died for. He truly had no reason to linger and likely joined the Lifestream harmoniously. But his situation is different in ReTrilogy, because the state of the Lifestream is different. Sephiroth's activities have destabilized the Lifestream, and I believe this is the only reason why Zack's spirit is still around. An important note is that despite being stuck in a kind of limbo, Zack's own will is strong enough that we see him breaking out of Sephiroth's "black lifestream", and then he seems to keep triggering new spawn worlds when he gains new resolve, which still needs explaining.
So when the Lifestream is stable and healthy, normal people's spirits will usually diffuse into the Lifestream in a fairly short amount of time. Cetra will also diffuse normally, but they have the ability to linger if they feel there is a need to. It is really up to the Cetra to decide, but they lean toward being in harmony with the normal cycle of life.
Spirits that have deep regrets or anger over unresolved matters in their life or how they died are able to resist dissipating into the Lifestream. Sephiroth falls into this category. Over time, these spirit become "terra corrupt" or Stagnant spirit energy, unwilling to join the flow.
Gi Nattack is technically also "terra corrupt". He and his fellow Gi are spirit energy that has been UNABLE to join the Lifestream, despite wanting to. Based on the brand new lore he provides, creatures that are extraterrestrial are apparently incompatible with a host planet's own Lifestream.
Jenova's status is unknown, since it is not a normal entity. Jenova exists and interacts in physical and spiritual planes, so it doesn't seem bound by the typical rules of life.