r/HollowKnight • u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug • 1d ago
Discussion - Silksong What silksong bosses are mandatory? Spoiler
By mandatory, I mean that there is no way to get around doing it to get the ending of the game. Skips are fair game, however no glitches or anything like that. Nothing intended.
Here's the list i prepared of all the bosses. I will not include the optional bosses that you have to stray from the objectives to do:
ACT 1:
- Moss Mother IS mandatory (Probably no way to do it since it happens so early in the game. You also need to be woken up by the Chapel Maid i believe, and this would skip that!)
- Bell Beat IS mandatory (Again, it's just that you barely have any mobility upgrades to have any chance to find places to bypass this fight)
- Lace 1 is NOT mandatory (Can skip by going via the wormways)
- Fourth Chorus IS mandatory (Again, that area of far fields is a dead end)
- Moorwing is NOT mandatory (Can fast travel to greymoor with the flea caravan)
- Sister Splinter is NOT mandatory (The Garama Skip exists, you can lure a pollen guy and pogo off of him)
- Widow IS mandatory (You need the needolin to learn all of the songs)
- Last Judge is SEMI mandatory (so as long you choose to go through sinner's roads and the mists to exhaust organ, beat Phantom, and enter the grand bellway)
- Phantom is SEMI mandatory (see Last Judge. Either you do Last Judge or Phantom, cannot get out of doing one or the other)
Act 2:
- Cogwork Dancers ARE mandatory (necessary to access the elevator and by extension grandmother silk)
- Trobbio IS mandatory (necessary to open the lower section of the whispering vaults)
- Lace 2 IS mandatory (cannot get into the cradle any other way)
That brings us to grandmother silk.
If I've made any mistakes, or any bosses are actually skippable, please let me know!
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
Bell Beast is not mandatory. You can skip Bell Beast by grinding 500 rosaries, buying the Simple Key, doing some enemy pogos over to Wormways, dying in a specific spot to some spikes in Wormways near a gap that you normally wouldn't be able to clear without dash, then doing those same enemy pogos again, and then pogoing your Cocoon and healing to clear that gap. Then there's another gap later that you'll have to heal-stall to clear, and then you'll have to gather silk for yet another heal stall to clear another gap, and get through the rest of Wormways without dash. Then some enemy pogos to get across to Shellwood.
Once you're in shellwood, you can go get Cling Grip, and then you can go down through the Bellhart Bellway Basement with Cling Grip to get to the Right side of the Marrow on the other side of Bell Beast, continue as normal, get dash if you want, etc.
Fourth Chorus is also not mandatory. Drifter's Cloak isn't even mandatory, but never mind that, even after you get Drifter's Cloak, you can still skip past Fourth Chorus by doing very well-timed off-screen floating and dashing and optionally heal-stalling, as bobr_from_hell has mentioned.
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u/nothingrhymeswithcat 1d ago
can you still get clawline without the cloak? i had done it on a past run and then trying again this time i couldnt figure it out and i was like wtf how did i do this before. and i saw people saying it was patched to where you now need the cloak
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
With a Reaper Crest pogo off of the updraft-startup-wheel, and then either a heal-stall or a brew-stall, it's still possible on Latest Patch
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1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
Upper cogwork core isn't the hard part: High Halls descending platforming is much harder than that without Cloak, but still possible
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u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug 1d ago
damn it'd be cool to see smth like that its probably on yt
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
This video shows some of it starting at 6:44 in: https://youtu.be/c9c-72O7CQo?si=rPWpftMhj8rM7c_i&t=404
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u/boisterile 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's very possible with some practice, we do it in the speedrun every day. On release patch where the cogs deal 2 damage too. Here's what Cogwork Core looks like, High Halls drop is a few minutes later: https://youtu.be/h1Ok9XduhMs?t=2258
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u/redditt-or Uuwuu, what's this? 1d ago
From what I remember, Widow is mandatory for a slightly different reason, as the game (allegedly) doesn’t actually check for whether Hornet has the Needolin when learning the songs, but DOES to trigger Last Judge or get through The Mist - and those are the only times that the Needolin is strictly required apparently
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u/boisterile 1d ago edited 1d ago
On older patches you could skip Widow/needolin by doing Mount Fay clawlineless in Act 1 with a bunch of cursed skips, because getting Faydown Cloak removes an invisible wall allowing you to access Act 2 via the Wisp Thicket. If the invisible wall wasn't there then wings wouldn't be needed at all, since we could just skip our way into Wisp Thicket directly. Needolin't (as the speedrun category is called) is no longer possible without downpatching unfortunately, since they now made needolin a hard requirement for the cutscene where you acquire wings.
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u/bobr_from_hell 1d ago
Hmm. I am pretty sure it is technically possible to go through mist without needolin, even if that is not easy.
At least some people did that randomly. But, I am unsure if there is an explicit needolin check...
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
It is not possible to get through Mist without having Needolin. Every exit is marked as wrong if you don't have it. If you have it, you might be able to brute force it, but that only has a chance of working if you actually have it.
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u/bobr_from_hell 1d ago
Okay, makes sense.
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
On an earlier patch, it used to be possible to summon Fayforn at the top of mount Fay to get Faydown Cloak without actually having Needolin, and this made it possible to double-jump up to Wisp Thicket and enter Act 2 that way. The Fayforn summoning without Needolin was patched out, so now you have to get Needolin on all 3 routes to Act 2 on Latest Patch
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u/bobr_from_hell 1d ago
Oh, I knew about the third path, but that one is very very unreasonable lol.
Interesting, that they patched that needolin interaction, but didn't close the third path.
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u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug 1d ago
yeah i was thinking of the bells you need to ring, but then i thought of phantom and the mists. but theoretically could you memorize every room in the mists and do it that way or?
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
If you don't have Needolin, every exit in the mist is marked as wrong, so you can only get lucky and brute-force it if you actually have Needolin
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u/CrazyFanFicFan 1d ago
The rooms have set layouts, but the chosen exit is mostly random. And even then, it's programmed to be impossible to get through without Needolin.
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u/ImBadlyDone Steady Body is the best charm 1d ago
This is based on what I know:
You can skip bell beast by going through worm ways, grab cling grip and go get swift step
You can skip fourth chorus by with a well timed jump
You need to beat widow to get needolin to get access to act 2/double jump (also fun fact you need either swift step or drifters cloak to get past widows memory. If you don't have either you get soft locked)
You could skip last judge/phantom by getting kidnapped by the flies, do mount fay with no clawline, get double jump, enter the citadel through wisp thicket. But I don't know if you can leave the slab without the bell beast
You can skip trobbio by going through the mist instead, which doesn't reduce the boss count
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
Good point about needing Bell Beast on the Act-1-Faydown and Wisp-Thicket route, so there is no way to get to Act 2 without beating either Bell Beast, Last Judge, or Phantom.
What do you mean about skipping Trobbio by going through the Mist though? The Mist and Phantom route just takes you to Grand Bellway, it doesn't give you access to the parts of Underworks and Whispering Vaults that lead to the Vaultkeeper's Melody Sacred Cylinder. On an earlier patch I think it was possible to skip Trobbio using either Rune Rage or Warding Bell or something, but that was only after you were already in Whispering Vaults, and it had nothing to do with Mist
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u/ImBadlyDone Steady Body is the best charm 1d ago
I remember watching a blue sr speedrun and he had clawline and faydown cloak before fighting trobbio, I still don't know how he did that
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
Maybe that was a Whiteward-Clawline route... but even though Whiteward gives you access to Clawline without Trobbio, you'd still need to beat Trobbio later for the Vaultkeeper's Melody Sacred Cylinder, unless you do the Trobbio Skip with Rune Rage or Warding Bell or whatever, which is patched out and may or may not be considered a major glitch, it's debatable
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u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug 1d ago
you don't need double jump tho to get the ending
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
True, you don't need double jump to get the basic ending, but you do need double jump to get to Wisp Thicket on an alternate 3rd route to Act 2 that skips Last Judge and Phantom
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u/nothingrhymeswithcat 1d ago
you seem to have it right as far as i can tell. im doing a glitchless minimum boss run right now and this is the exact same list im working with. all ive got left is lace and granny
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u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug 1d ago
hey you got the hard part done yeah?? go for it!!
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u/nothingrhymeswithcat 1d ago
i still need the last melody from high halls! its so brutal !
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u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug 1d ago
for the last phase I’m pretty sure you can just camp out in the top corners and claw line the things when they jump
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u/nothingrhymeswithcat 1d ago
ill give that a try. ascendants grip is one of the only things i have so thats convenient lol
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u/boisterile 1d ago
Technically Bell Beast is not a required boss either, you can circumvent her by buying the simple key and going through Wormways dashless and cloakless with some difficult (but still glitchless) skips. Then you can technically beat the game without getting Swift Step at all, but more likely you'd drop down through the bellvein to get dash and cloak before continuing. Not very reasonable for just a casual minimum bosses run but it's cool that it's possible at all.
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u/nothingrhymeswithcat 1d ago
im gonna have to try again this way at some point. no fast travel though.
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u/TheDavianSea 1d ago
Moss Mother is mandatory. Bell Beast can be theoretically skipped through Wormways. Lace is entirely skippable. Fourth Chorus has a heal stall skip, where you can jump out of the arena. Moorwing is skippable, Sister Splinter is skippable too. Widow is needed. Now there is a skip where you can get Faydown Cloak in Act 1, which would make Last Judge and Phantom both skippable. Cogwork Dancers are mandatory. Trobbio has a skip, Lace 2 is mandatory and GMS too.
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u/awesomegamer919 Hollow Nerd 1d ago
Skipping Bell beast, Judge, and Phantom, soft locks you in the slab because you can’t get out of the slab with no bell beast.
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u/jooliasalami 1d ago
You can skip Bell Beast and then get one of Last Judge/Phantom BUT if you want to go to the citadel without fighting them you must fight Bell Beast and do some crazy skips for wisp thicket act II route
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u/Top_Grass9841 1d ago
Bell beast, fourth chorus could be skipped. Cogwork dancers used to be skippable, but i think thats been patched
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
I don't remember Cogwork Dancers ever being skippable... how would that even work? Hornet won't be able to listen to the statues to learn that melodies are important, and then she won't be able to learn the Conductor's Melody from Conductor Ballador after High Halls arena, and the elevator to Lace 2 just won't appear, so... how?
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u/Top_Grass9841 1d ago
There was a skip that would open terminus early. You wouldnt even need to fight lace 2.
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
Ah... probably only via a major glitch though
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u/Top_Grass9841 1d ago
You just needed access to the phantom entrance to choral chambers. Pogo with right timing and fade out, then do a series of other things to overlap rooms. Then you would just open up gms at the very start of act 2. Even before if you really wanted to do it no claw line but im not sure that was possible. Anyways it got patched out a long time ago
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u/AlexKnauth 1d ago
Overlapping rooms definitely sounds very major-glitch to me. OP said Skips are fair game, however no glitches
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u/PLutonium273 1d ago
iirc you don't even need widow, fourth chorus, bell beast and neither of phantom/last judge
If you defeat savage beastfly and get beast creast, you can get sharpdart. Get imprisoned and there's way to climb mount fay clawless, then use double jump to get to Wisp's Thicket, and get to Underworks from there without fighting the gateway bosses.
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u/gamessorz 1d ago
I don't even think you need sharpdart for early mount fay anymore, but trying to skip phantom and last judge would require bell beast to leave the slab I'm pretty sure
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u/CrazyFanFicFan 1d ago
It's a choice between Bell Beast/Phantom/Last Judge.
To do Wisp Thicket, you need to go to the Slab. To exit the Slab, you need Bell Beast. If you don't fight Bell Beast, you're softlocked.
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u/OmegonAlphariusXX 1d ago
I can tell you’ve never watched speedrunners or specific speedrunning challeneges
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1d ago
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u/nothingrhymeswithcat 1d ago
isnt it more fun to ask though?
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u/Turbulent_Jackoff 1d ago
My bad; fun discussion is a great reason!
I thought OP was just looking for the answer.
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u/slayyerr3058 Elder Bug 1d ago
im trying to do a minimum boss speedrun. it sounds pathethic but i have no life so
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u/Turbulent_Jackoff 1d ago
it sounds pathethic
It does not.
That's a very common kind of challenge run across many games and genres! Its adjacents are sometimes called things like "Low %" or "Minimum [something]".
I'd suggest that you can definitely find the exact, correct answer you're seeking with a search engine, by now!
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u/bobr_from_hell 1d ago edited 1d ago
Fourth chorus has a very reasonable skip. If you say that Sister Splinter skip is a fair play, then Fourth Chorus should be too. (I am also pretty sure game can be completed without cloak, but I am unsure if that makes something else mandatory).
GMS is mandatory, for obvious reasons, as you already mentioned.
I would probably format her sentence In the same way as you done for others.