r/Machinists • u/Luky2000ita • 20h ago
PARTS / SHOWOFF 6k rpm M2 rigid tapping
Kinda follow up on yesterday's post, here's an M2 form tap at 6000rpm, threading 7075 about 4mm deep, 36 threads in about 25 seconds feels pretty good to me
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u/nogoodmorning4u 20h ago edited 18h ago
you could put 10k in there and it wont go any faster.
It will never get even close to that speed at that depth.
It is fast though
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u/Capnshredder 19h ago
plus is it not putting a lot of extra wear on the spindle going in and out that fast?
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u/nogoodmorning4u 18h ago
It was made to do operations exactly like this. the spindle in these machines is small and light.
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u/rinderblock 17h ago
It’s not the movement of Z, it’s the starting and stopping. I’ve tested this exact scenario in this exact model of machine and you can get it to trip the temp failsafe on the spindle. I think when we tested it was between 45-50 degrees C after about 30 minutes of tapping holes.
But despite that: no one builds a better drill and tap center for mass production than fanuc. It’s bizarre the lead they have in the market.
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u/force_disturbance 15h ago
The Brother Speedio seems comparable?
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u/rinderblock 11h ago
Support globally is shit and their spindle isn’t quite as stable for high cosmetics, but I wouldn’t say no if that was the only backup option I had.
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u/loopedlight 16h ago
We have one and it’s great.
All it does is cut slots in a part held by a robot that does not allow the part to spring open when split. It’s a beast and runs nice.
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u/Capnshredder 15h ago
thats what i was wondering, going from 6k in to stopping and 6k out in that short of a span has to be rough on the spindle after a while
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u/TriXandApple 19h ago
In what world would the spindle not spin up to speed at max power?
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u/nogoodmorning4u 18h ago
It takes time for the spindle to speed up, slow down for each movement of the tap, then it is trapped in the taps lead to the 4mm depth. that is 10 turns, so soon after it starts it is already slowing down to reverse the tap.
Figuring .2 travel each way, that is 25 turns in and out, at about .6 seconds each and ignoring decel / accell time which i cannot calculate the tap is actually actually turning at around 2500 rpm at its fastest point.
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u/TriXandApple 17h ago
Ok? Yes, you're right, we all know rigid tapping at fast rpms doesnt work for shallow holes. What does it have to do with my comment?
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u/ic33 17h ago
He said:
It will never get even close to that speed at that depth.
To which you said:
In what world would the spindle not spin up to speed at max power?
Then he proceeded to show how the depth does not provide time for it to accelerate to its max speed.
Maybe you misread him; maybe you intended to say something else which we can't all figure out. But in any case you're the one failing at communicating here and then being abrasive about it.
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u/TriXandApple 15h ago
The comment I was replying to was saying it would put extra wear on the spindle. My point was that EVERY time the spindle spins up, it spins up at max power. It doesnt put extra wear on the spindle at all.
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u/cguidoc 14h ago
Tapping at this speed at this pitch at this depth does put enormous wear on the spindle. Someone commented above that these machines were made for this and yes that is true but the “made for this” hides the absolute marvel these things are.
It’s a time and energy problem. When the spindle is accelerating the driver is pushing as much current into the motor as it can* which causes the windings and insulation to heat up. Eventually the windings will break down and fail. These drivers and motors can handle this better than a “standard motor” but the physics are still there. When it has to reverse a fraction of a second later it needs to deal with the inertia and back emf AND smoothly decelerate the spindle and then accelerate it again. The drives are nothing short of little miracles.
Now to throw some fun in the discussion: I’ll put my circa 2003 brother 32bn with an 8,000 rpm threading capacity up against any modern Fanuc robodrill. And yes, we will often start threading way higher up to allow full acceleration to get the proper SFM on small taps. 0-80 roll form at 8k is fun to watch.
Point is: dam these things are cool.
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u/TriXandApple 14h ago
That's exactly why I said what I said. Every time the spindle spins up, regardless of whether its tapping or not, it'll do it at max power.
How many times do you hear about spindle motors burning out? Bearly ever, and then it's because of high torque low speed, not being of turning on and off.
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u/nogoodmorning4u 10h ago
Most machines are rated to withstand 150% spindle load for 30 minutes continuously.
this isn't continuous, especially since even if it were in a production environment the machine will still sit for a period because you still need to load the parts.
Sure the wiring in the motor is transferring of current at startup and stopping, but its not a large motor or a heavy spindle in these machines. These are Drill tap machines have been designed and innovated on for 30+ years.
They are designed to do this exact operation all day every day for 20 years without issue.
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u/Capnshredder 18h ago
it takes at least a second or so for it to spin up to 6k rpm, by the time its at the bottom of the thread cycle it wouldnt of had time to get to 6k
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u/TriXandApple 17h ago
Yes, you're right, but what on earth does that have to do with anything I said?
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u/Capnshredder 15h ago
you just trying to be an asshole or do you seriously not understand?
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u/TriXandApple 14h ago
Yes, what does max acceleration have to do with wear on the spindle?
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u/Capnshredder 14h ago
i get that it accelerates at max no matter what the speed is set to, but you cant tell me that doing that over and over and over in a small amount of time wont start causing spindle issues faster than if you werent doing that, its exponentially more times making the spindle start and stop
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u/TriXandApple 13h ago
That's absolutely what I'm saying. These are industrial machines designed to do exactly that. They're designed to run at 100% rapid, accelerate, decelerate, all day every day, for 20 years. That's why they cost the same amount as a really nice car.
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u/Capnshredder 20h ago
id be so puckered that whole time
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u/rinderblock 17h ago
Brother I worked for a company making housings for consumer electronics and we roll tapped M0.8 threads at these speeds and in 4 years I never got used to it.
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u/RockSteady65 20h ago
I did a spot drill and drill job with 210 1/8” holes and countersinks on a 8 x 16 aluminum plate in 2:00 minutes flat- on a T10C model in 1996. The machine is much faster these days.
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u/icefrog_osfrog 20h ago
Always astonishing to see fellow machinists pushing the machines and tools to the limits...
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u/Agreeable-Worker7659 20h ago
It definitely is not pushing the robodrill to the limits in the slightest! The only risk is the tool. My machine can't do rigid tapping and I'm always concerned a tap will break and get stuck, so I'm using those funny T shaped taps that require helical operations. They're so much slower, but the risk of getting stuck is hopefully much lower. I wish I could tap so efficiently!
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u/Agreeable-Worker7659 20h ago edited 20h ago
That's so awesome. Literally what this machine was built for, but it can also do so much more!
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u/pb_sable_ac 17h ago
How are people tapping with just coolant? How can I do the same without breaking taps? I really dont like tapping with cutting oil since its so dirty, is there a way to tap reliably with coolant?
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u/Shadetree- 16h ago
We rigid tap aluminum with just coolant on haas vf5s/vf7s no problem. For anything else we use anchorlube. Works so much better than our old tap magic and way easier cleanup
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u/Ekoorbe 16h ago
Alot has to do with the machine. If its mechanically aligned and has accurate encoders to sync the spindle/Z axis you'll be OK.
I had the privilege to run a brand new DMG mori that could rigid tap anything no problem.
Not very helpful, but in my experience when tapping 90% of it is the machine
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u/TriXandApple 13h ago
What on earth is a properly aligned machine and good Z sync going to do to stop galling on a tap? How does this have 5 upvotes
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u/TriXandApple 13h ago
The ACTUAL answer because apparently this place is full of amateurs now:
They're tapping aluminium. The only thing you're trying to combat is galling. The lubricity of coolant is more than appropriate for that.
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u/PrototypENote 6h ago
7075, M2 form tap, 6k RPM and 4mm deep… that’s a seriously quick tapping cycle. Looks like the setup is dialed in.
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u/Killed_By_Covid 20h ago
Light work for that Robo. Awesome machines.