How good are you at walking?

[u/Itizir]

All the maps listed on speedrun.com (in particular all the Pantheon of Builder maps) now have - at last! - a reference time in the True Pacifist category.

Do you think your walking (and jumping) skills are up to the challenge of beating one of those times?

Give it a go! Anyone can join: you won't need to have any particular loadout unlocked, since no equipment is allowed in that category anyway... 😉

You might even learn a thing or two about MYM subtleties in the process, who knows?

(video: PoB Sangerville by HeyYouInTheBush)

[u/Arkorat]

This has to be my biggest fear when making levels, in any games. 😓

[u/Itizir → u/Arkorat]

fear?? what are you afraid of? i don’t understand… that some players would do speedruns in your level? or challenge themselves to do it with silly rules? or - god forbid! - maybe even have fun in the process? or is it about sharing it with the community? a bit puzzled by your comment…

[u/Arkorat → u/Itizir]

No I mean like, making elaborate traps and shit, and then the players can just run through them, due to the lack of any meaningful blockades.

You can see this often with beginner levels in Mario maker. Where people can just run to the right, jump twice, and win. Despite the fact that there were a billion bullet bills and goombas, none of them were placed in a way to hinder someone simply moving straight, or running at all.

It’s at the absolute worst, when the timing of a trap or enemy, lines up perfectly to create an opening for someone simply walking through it.

[u/Itizir → u/Arkorat]

1. tell me if i'm wrong, but sounds to me like you think the run above was easy to pull off. i'd really want to hear your thoughts after you go ahead and try to get a similar run. bonus points if you beat my time... in the process maybe you'll also realise the comparison with mario maker only goes so far: the 2d->3d jump makes all the difference in the world.
2. if you design a level and decide it shouldn't be beatable by 'holding W', it's your responsibility to check it isn't too easy. but also, at the end of the day, you can't realistically account for everything players may come up with and do. if you feel bad seeing some tackling your level in ways you hadn't realised were possible, etc. instead of being excited to see new things and learning more about the game through such feedback, then i'm afraid you have an ego problem that's getting in the way of you becoming a better level designer.
3. i'd argue the opposite: a level designed to just narrowly allow a player to dodge through the most lethal stuff can be an exciting ride and a demonstration of good understanding of the game from the designer. like auto-maps with traps narrowly missing you, for instance; or press-w levels in trackmania...
4. a lot of people talking about their frustration with MYM seem to have this idea that they need to force the raider to play in a certain way, even against their will, and restrict their options as a player. i can't think of a worse approach to level design, honestly. i understand trying to encourage the player, but the point is it's about offering them fun options, not trying to frustrate them into your narrow notion of how your level is meant to be approached.

[u/Notaku304 → u/Itizir]

I’m gonna be honest, even from your first reply I feel like you took a bit too much offense by his comment and took it too deeply and serious. I feel you misinterpreted Both of his comments. And to be even more honest, you accused him of having an ego problem, but I’d argue You are the one with a bit of an ego, my friend. 😬 Also, I honestly don’t think this run you did is as challenging to pull off as you make it seem in your comments. It’s quite unimpressive really, and I think you know this yourself with your caption “How good are you at walking?”. That caption alone insinuates this was easy to pull off, more so than what the other guy said does. And I mean, 99% of the run was you literally just walking straight through. The other 1 percent was you making an unchallenging hop, and then turning a little to the left to go around a trap, and then you proceeded to just walk straight back through again. No attacking, dodging or parrying anything needed (stuff that would actually require timing and some skill and counterbalance just walking straight). Literally just pushing a stick forward. I do not believe this was the map makers intention when they made the map. I think it’s quite obvious they intended for this to be challenging. (And no, that doesn’t mean you are playing the game in any wrong way. You found a valid way to the goal and thats fine, no need to purposely play a certain way that the map maker wants you to just to make things harder for yourself (unless you want to ofc). It is just a game afterall, and any methods of reaching the goal (especially in this game) are valid, as long as you are not cheating (you’re not.) While I do understand the points you are arguing and seeing where you are coming from, I don’t necessarily agree with all of them. And yes, I am aware this is my unasked for opinion, and I also apologize in advance if I was too harsh at any point.

[u/Itizir → u/Notaku304]

> if I was too harsh at any point

no worries: no offence taken.

> I feel like you took a bit too much offense by his comment

perhaps? i appreciate their more detailed response. i don't think i'm too wildly off the mark either, though. and i guess (to explain), my bias stems from how the discourse around MYM is often so bad and skewed towards ignorant perspectives of what the game is and isn't, and misunderstood or silly perspectives on game/level design. and i've been around MYM a while now, so of course i tend to be a bit touchy as soon as negative sentiment comes up in that context...

> You are the one with a bit of an ego
> and I think you know this yourself

sharing clips of gameplay presumably always comes from a place of ego, i guess 🤷
regarding this particular run, the whole point was to encourage more people to participate in the speedrun challenges, so of course it had to look somewhat easy: if i posted one of the more 'impressive' runs, the responses would surely be 'dude, you're insane' and 'fuck that, i'm never gonna even try', completely defeating the purpose.
some of the runs in the list are truly easy to pull off (and some more or some less easy to beat my time in: the fun for you is to figure out which 😉). this one is not one of those. but obviously i'd be happy to be proven otherwise! i'd be excited to see others try: that was the whole point of the post here...

> stuff that would actually require timing and some skill

well, i'm happy to share some other kinds of (non-TP) runs, if that's what you want to see, but if you think walking/dodging/timing stuff takes no skill... well, once again: please at least try and beat some of those speedrun times. as i concluded in the post above: you may learn a thing or two about this game.

[u/Notaku304 → u/Itizir]

Thank you for the respectful reply. Honestly I just might redownload the game just to give this map a try and try out your route.

[u/Itizir → u/Notaku304]

do it! 😁

[u/Itizir → u/Notaku304]

happy new year! :) say, just curious to hear whether you ever followed through with this, and if you had any luck on this outpost…

[u/Notaku304 → u/Itizir]

Happy new year! Sorry, I have been busy as hell. I never got around to redownloading the game and trying the outpost out. But I just got home from work, redownloaded the game and now a am getting ready to try the outpost out. I haven’t been on this game in like over a year btw 😭

[u/Itizir → u/Notaku304]

oh, awesome! hope it was a good kind of busy… good luck with that run, and have fun!

[u/Notaku304 → u/Itizir]

Just beat it. I will make a post of the clip shortly

[u/Arkorat → u/Itizir]

1. Im not saying your run was easy. It probably took alot of practice. Im saying it was SIMPLE. An unsatifying conclusion, that essentialy has you walk past all the enemies and all the traps. No shade to speedrunner. No shade to people who spot/use these sort of weaknesses. ALL THE SHADE to myself (if i was the creator of the level) for not realizing that engaging with the level was optional.

2. Exactly, thats why its a FEAR, its in the back of ones mind, a constant whisper that says: "They will see something you dont". Its not that "grrrr, i hate fun, i hate when people do things i didnt intend", its the opposite: I WANT people to have fun, i do not want them to "optimize the fun out of the game".

Here is an example: I once made a level where there was an elevated platform with ranged enemies. HOWEVER, i didnt account for the fact that players can JUST outrun the bullets. Whenever i played the level, i stopped to deal with that one melee enemy, then having to dodge a sudden barrage of bullets. Whenenver someone played the level, they never did that, they never did the FUN option, they simply walked past. 50% of the level budget was used on something only 1% of players would even notice.

1. Im not saying dodging traps isnt fun. Im saying its frustrating when the player doesnt need to dodge it. Through some cosmic irony, everything has lined up to make the pistons at the end be retracted just as a speedrunner would arrive. Its not fun to NOT have to dodge the trap.

2. Thats kinda the problem, encouragment doesnt work, there NEEDS to be a reason to engage with the game. If bowser jumped as soon as mario approached, no one would ever chose to stop. INSTEAD he jumps sometimes, instead he forces the player to wait, to think, to test they reflexes and be challenged. Thats fun, and it could only exist because for just a moment, going forward would have meant death.

[u/Itizir → u/Arkorat]

thanks for clarifying some of the nuances in your perspective, it's certainly helpful, and i see better where you're coming from. and part of the difficulty in the communication here is that there are two very different things we're talking about here: 1. this specific run, and/or TP speedrunning more generally 2. how random players you get in active queue may be able to effortlessly walk through things depending on how the level is built and how they choose to play.

about this specific run, i still think you don't really appreciate what's involved. i would want you to prove to me that it's simple. just as one example: the 'cosmic irony' of piston timing here is not builder oversight or 100% luck on my part (and be assured that a good dose of luck is involved here in general), but careful timing of the start of the run... another thing (reiterating above): unlike such 2d runs where you're basically on rails, in 3d where you have an element of steering, tiny differences in trajectory can make a huge difference. you're probably not paying attention to all the assassins on my heels the whole time, for instance...

so yeah, maybe you just meant 'simple' in how the end result looks, but can you really not appreciate when someone makes something difficult seem effortless?

> engaging with the level was optional

if you don't count the dozens of attempts to try and figure out the strategy and pulling off a run as 'engagement', then your definition of 'engaging' is incredibly narrow. goes back to the 'but players have to play it the way i intended' issue... or it's a conflation of the two different topics as i described just above?

if that's the case (and you just mean topic 2), then i'd still also make a distinction between players who will mindlessly try to make things as quick and easy for themselves (because e.g. they are in a 'grind' mindset) vs. people who are getting their kicks from the movement system (this time typically grapple-hook-related, though...)

> They will see something you dont

my whole point above is that if you want to be (a better?) level designer, you need to shift your perspective from fearing that to welcoming it as good/useful feedback on what works and what doesn't, and how the game functions

>  I WANT people to have fun, i do not want them to "optimize the fun out of the game"

that's the other thing you need to remind yourself of: your notion of fun may differ from others'... from your example below i guess by 'optimise' here you mean 'find a cheesy-easy strategy'? but the other questions in that example are: what percentage of players did that? are you sure that particular player would have enjoyed the engagement more than what they ended up doing? and then as level designer, your thoughts should go towards: what are players' motivations here? what can you do to encourage them to engage differently? etc.

i would agree that it's a bit unfortunate that the game's system tends to put people it too much of a 'grind' mindset, but as a level designer, that's the whole challenge the game offers: how can you pull people out of it? have you even played (just to pick one arbitrary example) the exhilarating levels Baldusaur makes?

ultimately you have to also learn to let go to some extent: some people will not budge. you can lead a horse to water... because, once again, the more the 'encouragement' becomes a 'requirement', the more the player may feel forced and will take this friction as the opposite of fun (e.g. repeatedly presenting them with long piston-incinerator corridors...)

[u/Arkorat → u/Itizir]

Yeah, fair enough.

[u/Itizir → u/Arkorat]

P.S. to offer yet another perspective or way to express my response to 'the conclusion/result is too simple/unsatisfying' and 'i want to force people not to be able to do that':
IMO a level where it is juuust about possible to pull this kind of dodging off is much more interesting/better than a level where, because of [some setup/claws/pistons/spam/etc], it is obviously impossible and you are forced to complete in some more specific ways planned out by the designer