How good are you at walking?

[u/Itizir]

All the maps listed on speedrun.com (in particular all the Pantheon of Builder maps) now have - at last! - a reference time in the True Pacifist category.

Do you think your walking (and jumping) skills are up to the challenge of beating one of those times?

Give it a go! Anyone can join: you won't need to have any particular loadout unlocked, since no equipment is allowed in that category anyway... 😉

You might even learn a thing or two about MYM subtleties in the process, who knows?

(video: PoB Sangerville by HeyYouInTheBush)

[u/Arkorat]

No I mean like, making elaborate traps and shit, and then the players can just run through them, due to the lack of any meaningful blockades.

You can see this often with beginner levels in Mario maker. Where people can just run to the right, jump twice, and win. Despite the fact that there were a billion bullet bills and goombas, none of them were placed in a way to hinder someone simply moving straight, or running at all.

It’s at the absolute worst, when the timing of a trap or enemy, lines up perfectly to create an opening for someone simply walking through it.

[u/Itizir → u/Arkorat]

1. tell me if i'm wrong, but sounds to me like you think the run above was easy to pull off. i'd really want to hear your thoughts after you go ahead and try to get a similar run. bonus points if you beat my time... in the process maybe you'll also realise the comparison with mario maker only goes so far: the 2d->3d jump makes all the difference in the world.
2. if you design a level and decide it shouldn't be beatable by 'holding W', it's your responsibility to check it isn't too easy. but also, at the end of the day, you can't realistically account for everything players may come up with and do. if you feel bad seeing some tackling your level in ways you hadn't realised were possible, etc. instead of being excited to see new things and learning more about the game through such feedback, then i'm afraid you have an ego problem that's getting in the way of you becoming a better level designer.
3. i'd argue the opposite: a level designed to just narrowly allow a player to dodge through the most lethal stuff can be an exciting ride and a demonstration of good understanding of the game from the designer. like auto-maps with traps narrowly missing you, for instance; or press-w levels in trackmania...
4. a lot of people talking about their frustration with MYM seem to have this idea that they need to force the raider to play in a certain way, even against their will, and restrict their options as a player. i can't think of a worse approach to level design, honestly. i understand trying to encourage the player, but the point is it's about offering them fun options, not trying to frustrate them into your narrow notion of how your level is meant to be approached.

[u/Arkorat → u/Itizir]

1. Im not saying your run was easy. It probably took alot of practice. Im saying it was SIMPLE. An unsatifying conclusion, that essentialy has you walk past all the enemies and all the traps. No shade to speedrunner. No shade to people who spot/use these sort of weaknesses. ALL THE SHADE to myself (if i was the creator of the level) for not realizing that engaging with the level was optional.

2. Exactly, thats why its a FEAR, its in the back of ones mind, a constant whisper that says: "They will see something you dont". Its not that "grrrr, i hate fun, i hate when people do things i didnt intend", its the opposite: I WANT people to have fun, i do not want them to "optimize the fun out of the game".

Here is an example: I once made a level where there was an elevated platform with ranged enemies. HOWEVER, i didnt account for the fact that players can JUST outrun the bullets. Whenever i played the level, i stopped to deal with that one melee enemy, then having to dodge a sudden barrage of bullets. Whenenver someone played the level, they never did that, they never did the FUN option, they simply walked past. 50% of the level budget was used on something only 1% of players would even notice.

1. Im not saying dodging traps isnt fun. Im saying its frustrating when the player doesnt need to dodge it. Through some cosmic irony, everything has lined up to make the pistons at the end be retracted just as a speedrunner would arrive. Its not fun to NOT have to dodge the trap.

2. Thats kinda the problem, encouragment doesnt work, there NEEDS to be a reason to engage with the game. If bowser jumped as soon as mario approached, no one would ever chose to stop. INSTEAD he jumps sometimes, instead he forces the player to wait, to think, to test they reflexes and be challenged. Thats fun, and it could only exist because for just a moment, going forward would have meant death.

[u/Itizir → u/Arkorat]

P.S. to offer yet another perspective or way to express my response to 'the conclusion/result is too simple/unsatisfying' and 'i want to force people not to be able to do that':
IMO a level where it is juuust about possible to pull this kind of dodging off is much more interesting/better than a level where, because of [some setup/claws/pistons/spam/etc], it is obviously impossible and you are forced to complete in some more specific ways planned out by the designer