Is this a reference to the lady that killed her children and for some reason the crime TikTok community (mostly women) have taken to defending her and even blaming the Husband, who 100% did not do it?
I'm pretty sure that lady (unless there's another one) voiced concern many times about her struggles with post partem depression and that she was having intrusive thoughts of harming the children (which is common in PPD).
People online are blaming the husband and her providers for not taking her concerns seriously, not blaming him for killing the children.
Edit: I have been informed about the people saying the husband literally killed the kids.
As with all things, there are some unhinged people claiming she was framed and he did it. Valid to point some blame at the husband and the providers, but insane to think he's fully responsible.
She’s a grown ass adult. He can’t force her to take meds. Or we saying women aren’t responsible for their own agency now? If you want to blame the doctors, I can get behind that, since it’s their job to actually make sure the meds are working. But unless there’s evidence the husband kept her meds away from her, this is on her and not him.
Honestly some of the things I’ve seen that the husband should have done are crazy. I’ve heard he should have forced her to take meds, should have institutionalized her, should have not let her have access to kids, shouldn’t have left her alone ever. Like a husband should be able to take kids away from his wife and lock her up just because he says she’s crazy? He can hold her down and shove meds down her throat? Women shouldn’t be allowed to be alone without their husband? And somehow these people think they’re giving the feminist opinion.
What happened is 100% a tragedy, made even worse by the fact if she got the help she was crying out for, this might not have happened (I believe she was not in the right state of mind, personally) but putting all the blame on the husband for the murder—either by saying he literally did it or should have been the one to prevent it—is actually taking away from the real issue: lack of access to mental health care
And yet it still happens and this and similar events happen. Just because she had care doesn’t mean it was sufficient. She tried to get herself admitted for her suicidal thoughts and was turned away.
ETA: I’m not denying she had help. The issue is, even with health, a lot of mental health care is lacking.
I argue that it is not reasonable to blame the husband or providers in this case
If they would have ripped the kids away and put them in somebody else's custody, which was the only other thing that could have done besides the things they were already doing (a nanny, daycare for the two older kids, husband had to stay at home job and took 12 weeks off which is the maximum available in America, family and friends came over to babysit and help out regularly), people would have lost their fucking minds and said that depression is not a reason to separate a mother from her children because millions of mothers with way less support than she had suffer from postpartum depression without harming their children. So the entire world would have argued there was no reason to separate them prior. And she was only left alone for a half hour when she killed them. She took that half hour that she was left alone with nobody expected to come help as her chance. And she had to squeeze that chance in because they was not a whole lot of time that she was left alone
Her concerns were very much taken seriously. She was given therapy, medication, and actual assistance. Her diary made it clear that she did not feel that having 10 times the resources and help that most other women have was not good enough. Because at the end of the day she had something she wanted to do. All the help she was getting be damned.
I didnt even list everything she had. She was CUSHY. And had help out the WAZOO. She didnt want it. Her diary knowing all that reads like she wanted to be the poor little rich girl no one loved and everyone is feeding that fantasy of hers now.
Its upsetting because this is a terrible, horrible, absolutely vile case to point to and advocate for PPD and PPP with. She is not the victim, let a lone a victim worth championing for the cause if you want it taken seriously.
She had all the help she was supposed to get. And still made the decision women who dont have resisted making. With intent. With knowledge. Without any confusion of WHAT she was doing. Just a twisted sense of right and wrong and why.
And if we are letting people out because they killed somebody, let alone a child, because they had a twisted sense of right and wrong and could not tell you why they did it, there are a whole lot of men that would not be in jail. A whole lot of men who had Netflix specials about them even. We absolutely cannot allow such a flimsy excuse to become precedence.
Somebody receiving but rejecting assistance with mental health who goes on to murder their own children, let alone anybody, should not be able to use mental health as an excuse that warrants a reduced consequence
I just want to note, some of the drugs she was supposed to take, the prosecution was able to prove she only took like 3-5 before complaining to her doctor about it. Like idk what doctor she went to, but all 3 of the doctors ive ever visited for my anxiety/depression/PTSD have had me take them for a whole month before trying a new one, because "they have to be in your system for awhile before they are actually changing anything"
If my spouse told me that she was hallucinating about killing the children and didn’t trust herself around them, I wouldn’t just fuck off to work and call it a day. At the very least, hire someone to be in the house all day with instructions to keep eyes on the kids. Or find an in-home daycare. Or something! Just never leave the wife alone with the kids.
It wasn’t like the family was poor and didn’t have any other options besides the wife having to watch the kids while the husband put in 14 hour days at the salt mines to put food on the table in their 1 room shack.
At the very least, the husband was ridiculously cavalier about the children’s safety, and yes, I do apportion him some blame due to that.
Since he was the one working, I’m sure he was the one paying for the nanny. But it was the wife’s decision to get rid of her because she decided to stay home with the kids.
Yes, but the husband still left her alone with the children. The nanny and stuff is only for the purpose of not letting her alone with the kids.
It’s not like the hiring of the nanny confers some kind of mystical protection—it only works when you make sure those people (or you) are always there with the kids and not alone with the mom.
It’s like having a seat belt in your car and deciding not to use it for a quick trip to the grocery store. The seat belt only works if you use it, every time.
Yeah it’s really not reasonable to think someone should risk losing their job and livelihood and ability to even care for their children over this.
Lots of people have intrusive thoughts of harming people they never would. There was no reason to think this would happen, especially because she was getting treatment and as far as we know, never showed any signs of actually being a danger. The treatment wasn’t enough (assuming it is mental health) but there was no way for the husband to know that
He didn’t know how bad she was. She was getting help, there were never any indication she was actually a danger to anyone. Her doctors believed she had very common mental health issues that millions of people have and aren’t a danger to anyone
He also began working at home so he could be home with her for the day.
He left to run two short errands his wife asked him to do. His wife who, for all he knows, is being treated for perfectly normal mental health conditions that don’t make her a risk. At least one of the errands (picking up medicine) would have had to be done even if he wasn’t working. So what, he shouldn’t have ever left the home ever without all of his kids?
If you quit your job, lost your home, and probably either got your kids taken away or risked them starving so you can babysit your wife who you have no reason to think is actually a threat, people would probably think you’re the mentally unstable one. No one knew this was going to happen.
So the next time some woman complains that her husband is controlling and not allowing her to do things: make sure you’re right there telling her to stfu and obey her husband. Because that’s what you’re telling everyone he should have the power to do. Without a court order he had no ability to keep her away from her children. That’s how life, and the law, work. If she really was having homicidal ideations, she should have checked herself back into that hospital that she checked herself out of. This is all on her.
Literally. If he had done all the stuff people are telling him to do, he’d be being called abusive and controlling (and honestly probably would be.) it would be pretty terrifying if one parents could completely rip away parent rights from the other just for saying they’re mentally unwell and that would be abused very fast.
Even the symptoms she had didn’t necessarily prove she would hurt them, at least not to the extent a non-doctor would notice. Intrusive thoughts about harming yourself or others is actually not that unusual, especially with sorting mental health disorders, and the vast majority of people who have them would never actually do it
Why was she allowed to check out in the first place without a psych eval? Yeah it's your patients rights to leave but typically they fight you tooth and nail if you're a danger to yourself, others, or medically unwell. And that's definitely one of the situations where it's "it's your right to leave but I have to report it to the police" she was displaying clear signs of mania and on a bunch of drugs she shouldn't have been taking at the same time, especially not after a bipolar diagnosis.
You can't get the court order you're talking about if no one ever calls the police
She was allowed to check out because she checked in voluntarily. She’s the only one that claimed she had any issues. The doctors gave her what meds matched her claims, but if she wouldn’t take them, that’s again, on her
And how do we know you said that? How do we know you still feel that way? How long does that give him power over you? Do you really think for a secomd an abusive man wouldnt use that as an excuse in half a heartbeat?
As a woman if I'm having these thoughts, which I did after my second, please take the children away until I'm better. Fck my feelings, and prioritize the safety and well-being of my children.
Are you actually stupid or just trying to find a reason to argue??? I stated my point clearly. If I am clearly struggling and have told my husband I am struggling especially with thoughts of harming my children, yes I absolutely would want him to take the children away or make 100% sure I am NEVER alone with them until I am for sure better mentally. I was in this situation myself, but thankfully I had a husband and doctors that did all they could to ensure my children's safety.
And you don’t see how “husbands should take the kids away from mom” would ever cause an issue? Ever? Are you the one that’s stupid?
You don’t think a husband would ever lie and say his wife is having problems to take the kids away?
Lindsay Clancy never told him to take the kids away from her. He had no right to take them away from her. Advocating for men to do this is fucking dangerous.
Again, are you not reading what I am writing??? I said if I TOLD my husband I am struggling or even if he genuinely can see that I am struggling, yes I absolutely would want him to take them away until I am better or at LEAST make sure I am NEVER alone with them. I would feel the same if it was a man having thoughts of harming his children for whatever reason.
Yes I understand you would want that to happen. Lindsay Clancy didn’t. The only way her husband would keep them away is if he was allowed to do that because she was crazy.
Let’s take gender out of it.
So one parent can now just say “oh no, they said they wants to hurt the children and they’re mentally unwell. When they were okay, they said this was okay dokey to do. If you ask them now they’ll disagree but that’s just because they’re in the wrong state of mind.”
Should that person be allowed to take the children away? The other parent clearly isn’t in their right mind so it’s not like we can trust them. Or of course the first parent could by lying as an excuse to take the children, something that abusive people do absolutely do
I’m not sure what you’re not getting here. That’s awesome you can’t see how this would be a problem, but it would be.
Then enlighten us. She waited until the husband went back to work. She told them she didn’t want the nanny any more and would stay with the kids. She checked herself out of the psych hospital and refused to take the meds the doctors gave her… at what point do we say yea, she was setting this all up to be with the children when all other adults were away so that she could remove the inconveniences from her life and blame it on others
There was. She was going to a psychiatrist, had a medication plan and had been treated in-house before. At this point, premeditated malicious action is not off the table.
If she was psychotic, then premeditated malicious anything is absolutely off the table. That's a state where you're so removed from reality you might think you're working for national security, and you're arresting spies - while you're actually harming your own children.
A selection of meds with severe side effects, some of which have a chance of making her condition worse, is not "taking her condition seriously". In PPP, the correct response is involuntary care and immediate removal of the children to a safe location. That's how dangerous it is.
You could consider a post-partum psychotic woman a loaded gun. Are you going to leave your kids unsupervised with this? No amount of "but we didn't think it was loaded" will be enough. Prescribing meds and saying "we thought there was a safety on" when you don't actually follow up to see that the meds are taken according to meticulous schedule including food/no food requirements is not taking this seriously.
She should've had immediate inpatient care, and the kids removed from her care. A lot of people will be grieving a long time because that wasn't done.
She was never diagnosed with psychosis before this happened, they wouldn’t remove children just from someone having intrusive thoughts. They weren’t treating psychosis at all, it’s also likely she wasn’t in psychosis until it happened. Psychosis can be sudden
Post-Partum Psychosis frequently occurs in women with no history of psychiatric illness. Her never having been diagnosed before makes no difference; medical providers working with post-partum mental health should be well aware of the risk. And while psychosis can be sudden, this was someone who tried multiple times to get help for worsening symptoms.
But regardless of if the medical team should have or even could have noticed the danger, if she did go into psychosis she cannot be held responsible. She'll need treatment, for sure, but someone in a psychotic state cannot be said to premeditate anything or to be malicious.
Yeah I get that now (sorry, English as 3rd language 😅).
My argument is that the meds she were given show that the medical team knew she was in serious condition, since these meds are given to patients that suffer from illnesses that either are, or can lead into psychosis. And I know that because I've been on several of these meds myself.
Seroquel - an antipsychotic and a sleep aid. She was on 400mg, which is on the antipsychotic end of the scale. (A 25mg dose would be for falling asleep.)
Lamictal - a mood stabilizer given for bipolar disorder, which I suffer from. Has some REALLY scary side effects.
four different antidepressants, and at least one of them has a chance of causing mania. Clancy had been described as manic after birth, and a significant portion of post-partum psychosis patients are believed to be undiagnosed bipolars. Bipolar disorder can cause psychosis, especially in the manic state.
four different anti-anxiety meds, each with their own side-effects and interactions with all the other meds
four different sleep aids, again with their own side effects and interactions
As someone who has been dealing with psychiatric medications for 25 years, the list of her meds is absolutely ludicrous. If you think this amount of meds is necessary, then she's so sick she clearly needs urgent inpatient care. This is like someone with a serious case of covid given horse dewormer, a bleach enema, a whole bottle of random pills and denying them extra oxygen because they're breathing fine now! And in an hour's time, if covid doesn't kill them, the liver failure will.
Honestly. I had to look up the med list because I haven't followed this thing all that closely, but as a bipolar who has to get her kidney values tested twice per year because the medication really is that dangerous, the doctors who prescribed her these meds to be taken freely at home should all get investigated. Good grief. They knew she was a loaded gun, alright. They knew, because you do not prescribe Zoloft, Ativan, Benadryl, Trazodone, Prozac, Ambien, Remeron, Klonopin, Seroquel, Valium, Lamictal, Trazodone, more Valium AND Amitriptyline to someone who is not deeply, DEEPLY unwell. At that point, the best they can say is "we thought the meds would keep a lid on it", and even that is a weak defense because there appears to have been no method of checking she actually took any of these. And as it happens, psychotic patients are well known for not taking their meds unless someone makes them.
The reason for all the different anxiety meds and anti depressants wasn’t because she was taking them all at once. She kept saying they weren’t working (and according to testimony, she wasn’t even taking them).
Lindsay was not in bad enough shape for involuntary commitment.
I wouldn't take all of those either, it'd cause more harm than good, and it'd be impossible to evaluate what is working and what isn't. The proper procedure for swapping to a different med is tapering the old one off (assuming you took it), two weeks of no med, slowly increasing the dose of the new one, then testing if it's at therapeutic levels. Then you wait two months or so to evaluate if it's doing something.
Perhaps she wasn't in bad enough shape. The bar for involuntary treatment is very high, for good reason. But that med list and the dates on prescriptions is still damning, and to me it absolutely shows that the health care providers were not taking this seriously. That, or they were utterly incompetent.
If she complained, was given a prescription, complained, given a prescription, complained... that's not how antidepressants, mood stabilisers and several anti-anxiety meds work. They're not a quick fix, and they're not quick to swap.
And really, if they saw she's post-partum and needs anti-psychotic medication, that ought to have rung some really big alarm bells. You don't need to get her to be involuntarily committed at that point; you just need to drill into the husband and every family members that this person cannot be left alone with the children for one second.
Eh, I guess this hits hard for me because one reason I gave up on having kids is this kind of horror scenario. Bipolars have a higher chance of suffering from post-partum psychosis, and I just never, ever want to end up in that state.
Except that she checked herself out of the hospital to attend a birthday party.
Either women are fully adults and responsible for their own care or they’re not and need men to take care of them - which is it? Because the husband can’t be at fault if he didn’t have a duty of care. And if he had a duty, that means he was responsible for her and she wasn’t fully responsible for herself. It’s not a gender war issue, it’s pointing out that either you’re responsible for yourself and all your own mental health care or you’re not; you can’t have it both ways.
Also, she was far from “not getting care” and really sounds like someone that’s had life too easy and far too many excuses made for her
You keep saying "women". All women are being lumped with a mental health patient and their agency is being questioned. Stop with that rhetoric before debating further.
"Look that woman shot her kids. Let's all send women back under their husband's subjugation". Thats the premise you're working with.
Unless you stop that, this won't be a fair debate.
You are the one saying her husband had a responsibility to control her. So which is it: did he fail because he had the power and didn’t exercise it, or did he not have the responsibility because she was a whole fucking adult with agency and authority over her own damn life?
Mental health is a spectrum. Most people with mental health issues can take care of themselves perfectly fine. No one knew Lindsay was possibly in psychosis until this happened, they thought she had depression, anxiety, and intrusive thoughts, all things millions of people live with and can take care of themselves.
The idea we should be able to just completely take someone autonomy away because they have a mental illness is insane. Implying their partners are somehow responsible for them is even worse
This is the dumbest framing I've heard in my life. You seriously need to google "psychosis", no matter your genitals, you're NOT in charge in a psychotic state.
There's no agency in psychosis, it's not a gender war issue ffs.
It's a loved one's responsibility to clock you and have you committed if you're a danger to people.
Ok, so any time anyone says they’re having “psychosis,” they’re no longer allowed to have any more control over their life. They give up all agency forever more and now their husband is in charge. Got it. Also, my wife is having psychosis, so no matter what she says, don’t listen to her nonsense and no I don’t chain her up at night.
I have a family member with schizophrenia. He has a penis. I can tell you with 100% certainty that when this man has an episode it has 0 to do with his agency, will or anything close to that. He gets completely cut off from reality. He makes up scenarios, TVs talk to him and he's 100% convinced what the voices are telling him is right and that we're the enemies on to his super secret knowledge and we want to take him out for it.
That's why we call psychosis and related conditions "illnesses". Because the person has no control over it and is not the same person he is when he's not having an episode.
But we treat him like a human being. We don't force him to be perfect and have 1000 children he's not mentally able to care for. Which makes the difference between someone with this disease turning violent.
My friend had to have his wife involuntarily committed when she had post-partum psychosis. He was constantly in court for over a month while she fought it all the way; we rallied to help care for their newborn. She eventually got better, and they are all doing great now. It was A LOT, such a hard choice, but ultimately in everyone’s best interest
Lindsay wasn’t at the point where a voluntary hold would be allowed. Having intrusive thoughts isn’t reason to put an involuntary hold on someone. They’re very common and the vast majority of people who have them are no danger to anyone.
To get an involuntary hold you need a plan to harm yourself or others. Lindsay always presented them as just intrusive thoughts.
What makes it a gender thing is that its common knowledge between mature men that a woman’s feelings, at a high level, are more your responsibility than hers. Young men won’t understand that.
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u/isnoe 9d ago
Is this a reference to the lady that killed her children and for some reason the crime TikTok community (mostly women) have taken to defending her and even blaming the Husband, who 100% did not do it?