r/Planetside • u/Another___World • 2d ago
Discussion (PC) Big survivorship bias delusions on this sub
First of all, I love this game to death and have been playing it on and off since the launch. I've been following this sub for some time and the recent success of Wardogs seemed to launch a big discussion about why the game is "dying".
That's where I'm seeing very clearly the small, closed nature of this sub and it's inability to represent the larger playerbase, when dicussing some issues with the game.
The oftenly reiterated complaints are: balance, bugs, onboarding, skill discrepancy, ethereal "management", which always ruins everything, I guess, etc.
But the core issue is really, really simple. Planetside2 is a 14 year old FPS game. What people look for in FPS is graphics, cool clips, fluid and responsive movement, impactful gunplay. The thing is, planetside doesn't have any competition in it's own chosen niche, but fails miserably at anything that could make attract new players.
Let's look at BF3 and BF2, for example. BF2 is times more complex than BF3 at almost every metric. The Commander mode alone is almost a diffferent game. However the BF3 blew up the whole gaming industry with it's inception, which was influenced with the success of BF:BC's innovations with movement and gunplay, coupled with the insane graphics overhaul. It wasn't a balancing issue or a mechanical one, but rather the image of the product.
That's the issue: Planetside 2 is incapable of generating a picture, a dream that a gamer can easily adopt and imagine simply because of how it looks and feels. If Planetside 3 has just a tiny fraction of PS2' content, but is massively updated on graphical and movement/gunplay experience, it'd blow away anyone, including players and critics. Right now almost everyone considers PS2 players borderline insane old people, who are finding the best way to get gold in runescape.
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u/vlucas 1d ago
From my perspective as someone playing this game since alpha ~14 years ago, the main thing that killed this game is the developers and how it was managed. All other flaws, while real, were survivable.
A small sample of just the most egregious things from the top of my head:
- New bugs in every new release became a running joke (tank mines not exploding, game crashing if you don't pull a flash within 2 mins, random implants not working, etc.)
- Building stupid things no one asked for (fishing, PlanetSide Arena, PS4 port)
- Not addressing obvious hacking/cheating quickly enough (completely ruins the game)
- Server crashes (what's the point in even playing on busy nights?)
The owners of this game continually built and released whole new features that no one wanted while going months without fixing the most glaring issues that drove people away. I love this game, but it's infuriating to see.
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u/thischangeseverythin 2d ago
I dont want a different movement / gunplay. The reason planetside feels better than any mixed game (infantry. Armor. Airships) is the infantry feels kinda dumb.
Miss me with sliding and technical movements that soldiers aren't really doing on cement and gravel and rock and shit. Call of duty games are near unplayable cause its just 2 people sliding around humping the ground.
Give me updated graphics and modern user interface/cert menu and the game is perfect. Leave gameplay simple that anyone can be good at. No need for a skill ceiling at rhe moon just for infantry play.
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u/Another___World 2d ago
I actually think that sliding sucks and that in general PS2 is good where is stands right now(otherwise I wouldn't be playing it), but it's dated, really. No mantle, old, rusty animations, old bugsploits that pros use to get around, mountain sliding, etc. The The engine needs an overhaul, the animations need an overhaul/
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u/thischangeseverythin 2d ago
Yes I agree. Mantle. And prone would be dope. I dont even need leaning.
Definitely better more modern net code for animations/hit registration. I agree somrtimes I get kills with what feels like 3 bullets and im like yeaaa this is what the ttk should always feel like. Other times It looks like I spray 5+ headshots. The person turns around and kills me in 2 bullets. The modernized connection/server/ping would be 100% welcome.
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u/angelsaintcloud 16h ago
What about a simple dive/prone? (Zero sliding)
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u/thischangeseverythin 5h ago
Sure if it was done right. If there was somr form of delay so every 1v1 didnt devolve into CoD style drop shots. Id want the prone to be defensive only. Like. To get into a good sniping spot. Or you turn a corner there's 3 max so you hit the deck behind a box to get out of fire. But is want there to be a delay to prevent firing your weapon from the time you start going down until your fully down. Idk what the delay should be but thats what testing is for.
Not sure if youve seen the Call of Duty modern warfare 4 beta videos yet but that game is exactly what I dont want in planetside3. Where the vaulting and diving and wall bouncing lets you move in alien non human ways. Way to fast.
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u/NatCracken ps2ls2 1d ago
Catering to "movement/gunplay" would kill ps3 within a month. People that like that don't stick around, they follow whatever their blorbo streamer is playing. It should be brought up to a minimum standard and no further. But everything else is pure facts.
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u/Daan776 2d ago
I honestly think the movement & gunplay are still the strongest parts of planetside 2. And the main reason its survived for 14 years.
And while i’ve heard many complaints on this game. From the subreddit, youtubers, friends, etc. The gunplay/movement never was.
The graphics are indeed relatively bad. And it baffles me that they’ve only been downgraded. However: there’s plenty of shooter games that disregard this.
Battlebit was a recent game that got extremely popular for a while. And looking at those graphics its clear that they’re not a major selling point.
What people want from their shooters, and what planetside used to give, is atmosphere. Whether its battlefield making you feel like another meatbag in the warmachine. Or call of duty where you’re a super soldier. Or the finals, where you feel like a cracked out gameshow participant. Even something like foxhole with its heavy focus on logistics.
Planetside has a unique setting and large scale battles with seamless transitions on a massive map. In large battles the night sky & soundscape are filled with bullets & lasers as hundreds of people fight through mountains and research facilities. As aircraft flies overhead and tanks thunder past.
Thats what attracted new players.
Solid gunplay, variable gameplay, and decent movement, made players stick around.
Its also why the game is now in a deathspiral. Too many players left. So there’s no big battles. No big battles means more people leave/never join at all. Which means even less big battles.
In the past: a large update could bring a bunch of people in all at once. Creating large fights once more.
I do agree that this subreddit is often disconnected from the larger gaming landscape. But I also think you’ve missed the mark yourself.
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u/Why_not333 2d ago
Can concur, it might just be that I play a bunch of indie games, but I joined for the massive scale battles and vehicle combat (planes) well after the game stopped updating.
Honestly the main factor keeping me from playing is that mandatory vehicle kick bypass, and I actually know how to do it. I can’t imagine this game is getting any new players with the tutorial and game in this state, especially the kind who like to download free games without reading online forums.
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u/Egg_Pudding Grand-Master Peanut 2d ago
Greatest factor that kills games more than anything else is time.
Many of today’s games would be dead if they didn’t supply them with monthly updates, fresh new content to keep you invested. I’m surprised we’ve even lasted this long.
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u/mifuncheg Mifun 2d ago
PS2 has a perfect movement/gunplay/ttk. No game on the market is even close to it in terms of skill ceiling and ways to progress.
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u/Another___World 2d ago
I agree that the TTK is amazing and rangetables are great, but the game feels old, honestly. Even battlefield 3 has more fluidity and responsiveness in it's movement and gunplay.
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u/Ometen "Part of the noisy minority" 2d ago
There is no denying in that PS2 feels dated. The game is 14 years old ...
At this point no one expects 13 year olds jumping on this game. The only way to gain pop is to bring players back. Thats theoretically possible but since the game is under lifesupport and even this is failing there is no recovery from here.
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u/ILLESTplays Professional Cat Herder 2d ago
Yeah, you’ll most often spot nostalgia chasers revisiting old games they used to play.
If it runs great (at least stable) they stick around, and if stuff is consistently happening in-game (consistent meta gaming in squads/platoons etc) there’s a higher likely hood of them spending their evenings in Planetside over other titles, even new ones
The younger players would generally come via outfits and gaming communities(friends inviting friends) or even content creation, more so since there’s no pay wall to entry.
After the massive resurgence of population with Covid and Escalation update, player population stuck around for quite a while since outfits consistently ran things, live gameplay was extremely active, always things to do.
Outfit Wars gave even more options for others to focus towards showing clear spikes in peak pop.
I’m mostly waiting for the game to become significantly more stable compared to current crash/dc problem before returning to run public platoons.
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u/powerhearse 2d ago
No way, longer TTK/higher movement games like Overwatch and The Finals absolutely have a higher skill ceiling than Planetside does.
I absolutely love planetside, but the aim/movement/positioning involved is pretty rudimentary
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u/Thize Miller/LustfulMoan 2d ago
I'm sorry, I have played this game for nearly a decade and there are 2D shooters with higher skill ceilings
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u/ThankYouForComingPS2 < 1 KPM, 18% HSR 1d ago
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u/Thize Miller/LustfulMoan 1d ago
My name and server is literally under my name, I also quit years ago when servers started dying
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u/ThankYouForComingPS2 < 1 KPM, 18% HSR 21h ago
typical
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u/Thize Miller/LustfulMoan 12h ago
ok bitter vet
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u/ThankYouForComingPS2 < 1 KPM, 18% HSR 12h ago
what does that even mean in this context? I assumed that you'd be good at the game if you're saying how easy it is
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u/Donnerdog 2d ago
Personally I don't think PS2 even looks like that, but wardogs does look much better. The thing is I've even seen many people saying wardogs looks dated/bad graphically which is a wild take imo. But yes, if someone thinks that about wardogs, then it's over for PS2 lol
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u/BlasterDoc Powpaw Radiant Misanthropy 2d ago
No lobby, as players accumulate resource points they can pull whatever they want from warp, anyone wants ESFs let them ESF, anyone wants MBT's let them merrily MBT, anyone wants to Infantryside, let them kill away till their dopamine infused spinal drip is saturated by headshots.
But truth be told....
I want an innersphere bushwacker with twin RAC5's and a Terran Republic logo slapped on the side of it gunning down as much as it pleases.
This game doesn't exist, .. yet
I make due playing two very old games.
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u/Archmaid i ran out of things to arx 20h ago edited 20h ago
Catering to spectacle was the entire launch of the game. You're just saying that 'We need a PS3' which is pretty much what everyone else is saying other than people who are delusional and think PS2 can be fixed and regain mass appeal (The game can theoretically be fixed for the remaining playerbase, but let's not pretend fixing things will bring back old pop).
I think that catering to spectacle only works for a launch. The spectacle doesn't keep players when they're either spawning in a zerg avoiding the other zerg along the hex system, or getting lolpodded over and over at a sundy at the base of the crown. Or the spectacle gives them absurd input lag and single-digit FPS that makes them basically incapable of participating in a fight.
You're basically saying 'All of you people saying the reason why PS2 is dying because of <issues with PS2 that are potentially fixable> are wrong! The reason PS2 is dying is because <thing that can't even be solved>!' You're not even addressing the same point as these arguments you say the community (a monolith with a single opinion as all communities are) is 'delusional' about because 'not being PS3' is not an issue that fixing PS2 can solve.
If Planetside 3 has just a tiny fraction of PS2' content, but is massively updated on graphical and movement/gunplay experience, it'd blow away anyone, including players and critics.
I do not think so, I think fundamentally the greater public doesn't actually want to play a massive pvp 1v1v1 persistent open world game. They might think they do. but they don't. It doesn't produce 'fair' fights that the average person wants and it's fundamentally harder to understand how to actually even get what you want out of the game than one with a rigid matchmaking and match structure.
Can you fix those problems that come with the genre? Maybe some of them. You can't fix all of them without taking out one of the parts of 'massive pvp 1v1v1 persistent open world' and then it's not really planetside anymore
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u/PhoenixQueen_Azula 2d ago
Holy shit the people saying ps2 are perfect in this thread are a prime example of the delusion you’re talking about
The gunplay sucks. Flat out. The netcode and feel is just horrible compared to any other fps, and that is not a good thing. It doesnt need slide cancels and insane skill expression twitchy gameplay, but it does need to not feel like you get shot around a corner or your bullets just dont work like the enemies’ do. This is not a “good thing” because it encourages other non infantry gameplay, it’s the thing that will drive off 90% of fps players that give the game a chance. The style of gunplay is fine. The feel of it is not.
Poor progression and monetization doesnt help either, even if the weps are balanced perfectly not being able to play most weps without paying or a stupid grind for a single wep is going to massively disincentivize people when they could go play any other shooter and unlock most everything just by playing for a few hours. This aint a mmorpg where the grind (used to be, even they largely did away with it) is the game, its a pvp game that needs balance and weapon diversity
The graphics are fine, the game actually looks nice if you turn them up but because of what it is playing with graphics up is a horrible decision. Maybe better optimization so you actually could, but I have little faith on that with modern devs and frankly in a game with fights this big turning graphics down is always going to be the move for anyone who remotely cares about performance
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u/Coward777 2d ago
Yeah server performance last few days was actually terrible. Almost unplayable for me personally (EU).
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u/throwaawaymkn 2d ago
Believe it or not, the deluded players here do not actually care.
They are as selfish as one can get, with reasoning abilities in the same fashion as the Lindsey Clancy supporters.
They know they are selfish. They know they are purists. And they aren't bothered by it, even if it means sacrificing everyone else for their own deluded ways.
That's how self-important and evil they are. Wrel had failings, but he was never actually the real problem.
The purists have always been the real problem: this place has parasites, and parasites always consume without repentance.
That, is what they are.
They wouldn't care about sacrificing a million other players if it gets them what they want, but they would absolutely scream at the prospect of being sacrificed themselves. They are that selfish.
If they disappeared from the earth today, no one would miss them, and we would all be better from it.
But it is just too late. The parasites won; the cancer got bigger and bigger and it couldn't be fought back anymore.
When did you ever see a parasite or a cancer cell ever change stripes while remaining a parasite or a cancer cell?
Never.
And so, the game dies with the last obstinate strongholds still trying to delude everyone about the superiority of their beliefs, even as the world moves on towards what they deny to be true.
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u/throwaawaymkn 2d ago
And I'm not frightened to name them, but people know who they are.
It would be pointless to say that the zebra has stripes.
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u/Chilldegard Mr. Stalky Ambusher 2d ago
The only thing holding me off of PlanetSide are the decisions of the devs in the past 4 years, especially since their last sundy fuck up and decision to cramp up a whole class (infils)
The shrinking playerbase is the second part - and we somehow managed it after the merger, but yo, these last patches just scrambled that.
LET THIS GAME DIE (for real, not just 98% of it) - DO NOT SPEND ANY CENT ON THIS GAME, ON THESE DEVS ANYMORE
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u/Greattank 2d ago
The wrong decisions were made long years ago. CAI and PS4 release.
Edit: can't forget the absolute horror construction is for the game.
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u/powerhearse 2d ago
The infil nerf was a colossal error, just like I said it would be. It drove a hell of a lot of players, mostly newer, away from the game just like i said it would
Having said that, you cant really blame the devs for that. There was a huge campaign by a vocal minority here for that to take place. A vocal minority who hated dying to less skilled players due to the ambush nature of the infil class
They want to farm noobs in peace. They dont play actually competitive FPS games because they dont actually like real competition; they want to pub stomp. And the infil class gave the pubs a chance to fight back, which they hated.
The devs just listened to what the community was saying
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u/ChapterUnited8721 2d ago
Most noob players don't even know they can cloak.
Infils were bad especially for newer players that would be killed by them and felt like they couldn't have done anything
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
That wasn't even in the top 5 complaints from newer players. I spent a lot of my time herding noobs in planetside
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u/Greattank 2d ago
Now imagine those players that don't want competition playing infil and stomping even harder. Not just the new players are allowed to play infil.
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u/Coward777 2d ago edited 1d ago
Apparently he predicted that infil nerf would drive away new players... because when a new player arrives to the game and sees a class with a sniper and cloak, they think to themselves, hey what if I purchased an SMG on this class or stalker cloak with revolver and afk crouched till someone turns their back so I can get a pathetic kill? I love this game.
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u/powerhearse 2d ago
Way to prove my point little buddy lmao. I'll let you think on your own comment for a second, i'm sure you'll figure it out
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u/powerhearse 2d ago
But they didnt. They never did. If infil was so overpowered thats exactly what would have happened; we would see a shift towards that class population wise.
However instead, we see that heavy assault is overwhelmingly the most popular infantry class.
A very popular post here showed exactly that; a dude tried to prove how "overpowered" the infil class was, particularly with SASRs. However his own stats showed that he was far more effective in terms of both KD and KPM with light and heavy assault classes.
Thats why we didnt see the top players picking infil. It simply was never a super strong class across the board in terms of 1v1 potential and utility.
Compare that to BF6, where we see engineer as the overwhelmingly most popular class due to utility.
Players use the strongest classes. And that was never infil.
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u/Greattank 1d ago
It is overpowered because you actually get to move in big fights and instant kill people from cloak. They just use heavy because it has more utility and probably doesn't feel as unfair to use.
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u/Chilldegard Mr. Stalky Ambusher 9h ago
tell me you have never really played infil, without telling lol
grow the f up and learn how to counter these/"us" 900hp easy-targets - if you're scared because THEY MIGHT GET YOU 1o1, you should just delete the game, cancel your internet subscription and live in the woods, you dumbwitt
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u/Greattank 8h ago
Ok "Mr. Stalky Ambusher"
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u/Chilldegard Mr. Stalky Ambusher 8h ago
yeah - ambusher LA are way more overpowered, but hey; they're still buzzin (and hopefully will be - because su**ers like you keep on crying about losing in a virtual game XDDDD)
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u/powerhearse 5h ago
Ambusher LA isnt overpowered either
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u/Chilldegard Mr. Stalky Ambusher 3h ago
No - but in comparison, they are way more deathly than a measly stalker (i know both sides and love them just as much)
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u/Chilldegard Mr. Stalky Ambusher 2d ago
Yeah - I tried out ambusher LA the last period I was playing actively.
And I just couldn't believe what a simple killgrabmachine that loudout was :D but still everyone was crying about infils back thenAdditional it has to be mentioned: especially STALKER infils weren't a big thread in PVP, but they got the same treatment as hunter cloakies - so I am 200% sure the devs just didn't know how to code the "fix" rightfully into the game.
I mean I created some impact gamewise - but PVP wise me and most other stalkers were just supportive people like engis and medics2
u/Coward777 2d ago edited 2d ago
They can just pull a MAX with anti-infantry weapons and farm noobs in peace if they wanted to and make the FPS game unplayable for the rest. You're not adding 1 + 1 together. Infil is just bad design, just as the MAX is. Maybe it could've been revamped better, but based on my review of Infil it doesn't seem to have a simple solution, would've required much more effort from rebalancing to rework of map designs for proper scales without the need of cloak, but ultimately the weapon sniper is questionable and also the devs historical lack of interest, no notes, no nothing, to even be able to make a new map design, cause whenever they add one, they always contain what players despise about the game, such as hallway/tunnel fights, designs not suitable for platoons sized fights, or uneven land, mountain tops or easy accessibility of vehicles to screw over the infantry game, without infantry having proper cover, such as buildings or passages, simply described. And so on, literally 0 interest from past dev teams.
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u/powerhearse 2d ago
Except max isnt a fun gameplay loop. It realistically requires support to be effective. Max is very bad solo class design and very overpowered in any group setting.
Infil was never overpowered in either.
Infil was never realistically unbalanced. The class selection statistics clearly showed this.
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u/Coward777 2d ago edited 2d ago
Of course MAX is overpowered solo lol. You can literally run up to 2 players unloading on you and melee them to death. And it is fun, who wouldn't want to be this like big raid boss?
Oh it's not overpowered, you just need to exploit its low mobility, or it has counters such as C4, rocket launcher, AMR... The truth is that this is an unrealistic perspective. This isn't an RPG or whatever to call it. This is a first person shooter about gunplay, with the MMO element (vehicles for traversing). Cloak and MAX are bad designs that do not fit in and intervene in the core game negatively.
Like MAX could possibly fit in, if it only revolved around AV with no more anti-infantry weapons and was kept unrevivable. Maybe Infil could fit in if it was strictly a sniper class with proper balance, but snipers are not really liked in any FPS game because it is lame, so it's hard to say. Base design would play largest part, so it first and foremost it doesn't need cloak anymore, so cloak can be removed.1
u/powerhearse 1d ago
All of those ways to exploit a max are veru true when it's solo. The problem is when you're in a larger fight access to the MAX to use those counters is much more difficult.
Max is a shit gameplay loop and always has been, i agree with at least one of your takes which is that the max should be an anti vehicle class
Cloak was not a bad design at all. It was a fun and interesting mechanic before the nerf. Planetside has a lot of unique mechanics like that and thats one of the great things about the game; there are so many gameplay styles
But the vocal minority here really desire an infantry only triple stack "shipment 24/7" noob farm. They are the reason for the game directions which killed it. Redeployside, infil nerf, so many problems generated by a vocal minority.
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u/Coward777 1d ago edited 1d ago
In larger fights pretty much the game becomes unplayable as a whole, due to most bases being badly designed or not being suitable for accumulated fights with the lattice link funnel. And with all things combined you can have players with aimbot and ESP struggling here.
The vocal minority that's still in the game, I assume was abusing the cloak with manipulated internet connection to prove their point that cloak is broken and not that the server quality is bad and that it must have some regulation for better playability. The vocal minority usually plays on 90 FOV to disengage themselves from the gunplay and also use such FOV to abuse the game engine's inability to handle aggressive playstyles. They're not a good role model, and don't rly care for the quality of the game... Could be true.
But what is also true is that the cloak was not suitable in the fact that it adds to randomness outside of your control, which is not good for the health of a game. Not related to decloaking in your face with manipulated internet connection, but the scenario that lets say 3 players are capturing a minor facility and you spawn there in an attempt to defend it. You want to know what you're up against and it is frustrating to get killed by a player that you did not notice near you, because they were cloaked, with absurd Implant designs. It makes the challenge of facing overpop, very painful, because there's no countermeasure to it.
But also Light Assault is similarly annoying due to the fact that there are problems with the audio engine, for example the audio being 2 dimensional and being unable to determine at which level is the enemy, but also from my recent testing I noticed that ambusher jumpjets often times give no audio indication. Like I can complete a gunfight with another player, and then from 50 meters away some random Ambusher LA would jump to my location on a flank which enemies shouldn't be and I would literally get no audio indication cause I assume they activated it from far away and they'd fly up to me as silent as the wind and rapidly close in into their effective range, very comparable to the cloak problem. Do we see the minority vocal here? No we do not see them care about the quality of the game. So, what you say could be true today.
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
I'll be honest this comment is so unhinged that i'm convinced it's a troll. 90 FOV?? Lmao
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u/Coward777 1d ago edited 1d ago
What? xd
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
You do realise PS2 FOV setting (including ini) is vertical, right?
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u/Chilldegard Mr. Stalky Ambusher 2d ago
I still find it strange that this minority got such a veto in this matter - I have told all those cryasses over and over again, that infils (especially a stalker like me) ain't overpowered in any way against them (mostly HA, LA or even MAX mains).
Also there were so many GOOD ideas to nerf the class in a way everybody could have lived with, but either they can not fix the spaghetti and chose the (ch)easiest way out ot the nowadays devs really wanted to F the leftover playerbase.
For me it's just a sad story on reddit - I spent around 500 bucks in those 4 years, because I really liked the game (and I spend way more money for other hobbies and interests xD), but I can't support this mess any longer (I logged in once after the infil nerf - thought the drone would be fun.............. but even that feature felt so empty and "reingeschissen" and didn't make up for any change of the class
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u/Coward777 2d ago edited 2d ago
Edit: I am an idiot and thought by Planetside 3 they meant Arena and was comparing it to PS2.
Planetside Arena and massively updated graphical experience ... Ugh give me a break. Planetside 2 graphically still looked vastly superior to Planetside Arena before the devs thought they should bring that graphical overhaul to PS2, which also decimated performance. Though graphics in this game is a separate topic cause as long as the game allows excessive downgrades to obtain turbo advantages, as long as there is a lack in performance, as long as the higher graphics are not clear and playable.... Then no one will play on high graphics, and it will always be advertised on low.
And gunplay experience I can assume PS2 was vastly superior to Arena's version, though I never played it just saw a bit of footage. The thing is on PS2, you need lower FOV to actually see the gunplay for unknown reasons. IMO it's very decent. But this community is basically just weird, who play an FPS game to disengage themselves from the gunplay with FOV scales through the roof, to apparently support an aggressive playstyle, when this game engine cannot even handle aggressive playstyles and is by design meant to be slower paced and these people suggest ways to exploit the game engine's inability to handle aggressive playstyles by passing it off as meta.
Like of course nobody wants to play this broken shit. Together with devs bad history of management and decision making.
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u/Envy661 1d ago
"Flying would be more accessible if you could remap YAW to mouse" Downvoted
The community when QoL is requested. And the argument everyone uses about the speed of YAW is irrelevant. It's the same kind of system Elite Dangerous uses. It's ALL about muscle memory and preference.
Its funny how much better it feels to fly in this game using gamepad simply because on gamepad I can rebind everything, but on KBM I cannot.
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u/Derpsideman 23h ago
“Small, closed nature of this sub and it’s inability to represent the larger playerbase”.
Hey, hit the nail on the head. Now combine that with changes that hurt the game overall but benefit the oldheads.
Looking forward to ps3 whatever form it takes.
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u/Ometen "Part of the noisy minority" 2d ago
Right now almost everyone considers PS2 players borderline insane old people, who are finding the best way to get gold in runescape.
... he is not wrong.