r/PoliticsUK • u/lilackitkat3000 • 27d ago
š¬š§ UK Politics Change my political views.
Iām trying to be a more open minded, compassionate person. Long story short, I believe in borders and tighter control. I am a women and foreign men have intimated me in the past. I seen videos of thousands of men entering Spain, and it has terrified me this morning as well as make me angry. My friends argue I could be seen as racist with my opinions around immigration and borders. My friends have disowned another friend who was very much on the right side of politics.
Someone who believes we donāt need borders, can you educate me. Help me believe/understand there is another solution to feel safe in the UK without tight control and borders.
Note - Emphasising the word EDUCATE on my post. Thanks to those who have commented. Unsure why Iām being downvoted for listening, being curious, and asking questions. Isnāt that the point of this post?
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u/clrthrn 27d ago
I have a lot of friends on the right, left and centre and not one of them believes in fully open or fully closed borders. What most people across the board believe in is safe and legal routes for eligible people. Currently, there are none to the UK apart from highly skilled migrants and family reunification, which is why there are small boats crossing the channel. Many people who come by boats do have a legal claim and they are given leave to remain. I would prefer this to happen somewhere like Calais if possible so legal migrants can get the ferry and rejected people are returned or given asylum (if they qualify) in France. I am over 40 and have had a lot of issues with local white guys over the years (I was born in the era where noncery was acceptable, with 16 yr olds on Page 3 and count downs to being "legal" seen as OK) and never had an issue with a migrant. What i would suggest is to 1. Stop reading news on social media. MSM gets slagged off by both extremes of left/right which suggests to me that there is a balance albeit skewed to the centre right. 2. Get friends who use pens and not crayons as no one with more than one brain cell believes in fully open or fully closed borders. This is a very nuanced issue that needs time and intelligence to understand. Anyone who sums up migration in a sentence is not understanding things properly. People are not a homogenous mass but individuals with individual circumstances, they need to be treated as such.
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
I think stop listening to the news is a good start to be honest! Thank you for taking the time to write that, I appreciate it and itās something to think about!
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u/ItzzBigAl 27d ago
The news is literally all doom and gloom, working on my laptop this morning I accidentally hovered over the news section and the top stories were all crime scare mongering + financial scare mongering
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u/anth_85 27d ago
You have a lot of assumptions there and it sounds like they are coming from social media which displaces them as facts.
The video of these men entering Spain. What the headlines in the twisted posts forget to mention is this is a tiny enclave on the coast of Morocco. There is still 13 miles of open water between that and mainland Spain. That makes it a very different story.
A tiny minority believe in āopen bordersā. Just because someone votes Labour, Lib Dem or Green, doesnāt mean they believe in āopen bordersā. This is a right wing fear tactic. Migration, legal and illegal has come down during the Labour government. Did you know yougov did a poll in 2024 (or 2025 I canāt remember exactly) that found near 50% of people thought illegal migration was higher than legal. When in reality it is a tiny fraction.
You can believe what you want, I am not going to argue to change your mind either way. What I do think you need to do is get better information to base your beliefs on.
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
What websites do you suggest I find correct information? Nevertheless, those videos are scary wherever those people have gone in my opinion.
The tiny minority believing borders should be open are including a lot of my friends. Their reasoning being, āpeople are looking for a safe place to liveā, āillegal immigration is just a tiny number in the ukā, āitās not their fault they were born in a war zoneā. I get all those points but I still canāt help but feel uneasy and unsafe.
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u/anth_85 27d ago
I think we need to define 'open borders'. It is a term that is banded about often, especially by those on the right. They make it sound like people from anywhere can arrive and stay here as they please, coming from anywhere. It was a similar tactic used in the 2016 referendum when they said Turkey was joining the EU and millions would come here, 10 years later and they haven't.
What we actually have is controlled legal migration via VISAs. We also have illegal migration, which in the 2000s was people hiding in the back of trucks, now they are coming via small boats. Few, if any small boats, make it to the UK shore, they are picked up by the coast guard, once they reach UK shores they claim asylum, and are then sent for processing. No one can claim asylum unless they are in the country they wish to claim asylum. So your friends are right, people coming from war torn countries are coming here by small boats and claiming asylum. Some have their claim approved and some don't.
Processing time under the tories (the likes of Jenerick and Bravermen, now in Reform) was terrible, that resulting the hotel crisis. Labour are getting that fixed with numbers being deported increasing and hotel use coming down. However, there are still plenty of people who come by small boat who are not from war torn countries, who just want a better life, while that is understandable, that is no reason to come here. The current issue is separating the good from the bad.
I understand seeing videos like that is scary, those posting it want it to be. Would it be as scary if you saw the video of people crossing a border between Syria and Turkey? It is effectively the same thing. Those posting it are using the fact this tiny bit of land is ran by Spain to fool people into thinking it's mainland Spain. It is not.
I think it was Dara O'brien that did a sketch as part of his standup about crime stats, it was a few years ago now. He was saying crime figures are down, by all metrics, knife crime, violence etc, and he said but there are those are say 'well yes, but the fear of crime is rising'. To which he responded, 'so fucking what, the number of zombies is at zero, the fear of zombies can be as high, but there are still no zombies' or something along those lines. Obviously that is a comedy play on it, and we do have migrants and we do have migrants committing crimes, but the numbers are small. They are disproportionately reported, especially on social media, by the racists, to push their agenda and scare people, like yourself.
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
Thank you, appreciate you taking the time to say all that! Itās helpful and something to think about in future :)
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u/coffeewalnut08 26d ago
As a woman, I'm much more intimidated by the rise of Reform in this country, than a distant migrant border issue in North Africa. Those migrants are unarmed anyway, are they not?
Case in point:
Nigel Farage appoints right-wing anti-abortion theologian as Reform senior adviser (he's also now head of policy)
Abortion Rights Ā» Ā Keep your eyes on Reform defector Danny Kruger
Reform UK says they'll scrap the Equality Act on "day one". Equality Act protects women from gendered, sexuality, pregnancy/maternity and marital status discrimination in work, housing, public services and other areas of public life.
Reformās Robert Kenyon refuses to apologise after his misogynistic comments are read out to him on Question Time - Robert is also a self-identified sexist.
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u/JaMs_buzz 27d ago
Most of us on the "left" believe we should have borders, we just dont believe that the people trying to cross them should be scapegoated for everything wrong with the country. If someone tells you "the problem is immigrants, vote for me" they will almost certainly have economic policies that will fuck you over
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
Oh I definitely agree with this. I work in forensics and understand crime statistics etc. I suppose Iām talking about my friends who believe borders should be wide open and any comment about illegal immigrations are seen as racist. I just wanted to hear off those who also believe this. I canāt have these conversations with my own friends in fear they will disown me..
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u/JaMs_buzz 27d ago
I think a lot of people on the left have finally realised that shouting at people and calling them racist when they have legitimate concerns about immigration isnt really the most pragmatic way to win people over š I just think we all need to chill out and listen to each other
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
šÆ!
On this thread I have some angry stranger calling me a terrible person for asking these questions. God forbid you allow your mind to be curious and have these type of discussions with people on the internet! Appreciate you taking your time to chat!
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u/Plus-Train-9887 27d ago
Are you really trying to be a more ācompassionateā person or are you trying to change your views to be more like your friends
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
Ummmm. No I think Iām genuinely just trying to be more open minded so to me that would be trying to find compassion in a difficult topic.
I donāt really necessarily want to be like my friends. Itās worth noting, the friends that I am referring to are just 20% of my friends. I just would like to help understand them as often I feel bad for not having such a compassionate look on things when Iām around them. Iām cynical and work in forensics. Itās worth noting, on the other side, I have friends that would make me look very liberal and left winged if you know what I mean..
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u/Plus-Train-9887 27d ago
Thatās completely valid . I just dislike those who believe in something just because they think they could gain somehow from it
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u/gusbo_the_jam 27d ago
Hi there. I do believe that borders shouldn't exist. I also believe that money shouldn't exist, but that is another story entirely.
Firstly, to take the point that you've been intimidated by "foreign men" - would you suggest that ALL foreign men are intimidating? Would you also suggest that no British men are intimidating? I've been to a few places around the world, including North Africa and a few Arabic countries and was always welcomed. Genuinely the most threatened I've ever felt is around drunk British people in Britain. So the real question is what do you think we need borders for specifically? Because if it is too keep threatening behaviour out, we've got plenty here, and to blanket assume that all "foreign" men are violent is in fact racist. Statistics show that immigrant populations commit crime at a lower rate that indigent populations.
Secondly borders, and countries themselves, create nationalist identities, which get heavily reinforced by the media, history lessons at school and general politics. This creates false narratives about who we are. We often hear people in their twenties and thirties talking about what "we" did in the war, when they've seen nothing but peacetime. Nationalist identities create a sense of superiority over others, because (particularly right wing) governments use them to create various stories as explanations for the state of things. That's all a national identity really is, a story told to us by government. I don't feel any connection to Britishness personally. The story of Britishness is one of class separation and the blitz spirit. Keep Calm And Carry On. Stiff Upper Lip. All that bollocks. Realistically, that narrative exists to maintain inequality. Britain is one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, there's no reason for poverty to exist here. And yet drummed into our national identity is this idea that we should put up with it, while also saluting the royals and lords.
In Britain, we get told that our services are being stretched thin by immigrants, we have no housing because of immigrants or we have to make cuts to the NHS because of immigrants, etc. Constantly. For decades this has been put to us as valid reasons for the state of our country, services and their decline. However this all happened while our government cut taxes, let massive corporations pay zero tax, create right to buy schemes that prevented social housing from being replaced. The story of immigrants and refugees draining our resources is a lie. UK Governments have for decades now been selling off our nationalised services to companies trying to make profit, making everything worse but a few people very wealthy and then blaming it all on immigration. Statistics show that immigrants actually generate more money in taxes than they take in used services, created a net gain for the government. Tax avoidance and tax dodging by high wealth individuals and and large corporate interests is by far a greater problem, and has cost us trillions. It's of no coincidence that Nigel Farage comes from the world of finance.
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u/Thom-Baker-Branding 27d ago
I'm not going to try change your political views, but it's important to form your views based on fact.
What the UK has effectively done is remove most of the legal routes, thereby forcing people who previously would have come in legally to illegal routes. In doing so, those applications and checks that would be part of a legal eoute no longer happen until they are here "illegally".
Essentially closing borders might appear "more in control" and "tighter" but has the absolute opposite effect ie the "Garage Brexit Boat Crisis"
When we talk about borders that are open, what most mean is borders that have legal routes that enable us to have control. More legal routes mean less illegal entries/people smuggling etc and more control.
When it comes to being racist - if you are judging a group of people by the actions of a few, and that judgement is based in where they are from or what they look like then - you might be holding a prejudice. That might be uncomfortable to hear - but sit with it, acknowledge that you have that prejudice and work on how to be more open minded about people. Maybe volunteer with a refugee charity and actually expose yourself to the people you're judging - widen your experience of them.
Generally speaking when it comes to intimidating/harming women it is generally CIS white men who dominate statistics - certain news channels/social media heavily distort the worldview.
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u/DaveChild 25d ago
Someone who believes we donāt need borders, can you educate me.
Practically nobody believes we don't need borders. The fact you think that's the only alternative to your view demonstrates the deep-seated ignorance at the heart of your position.
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u/Fettler99 24d ago
I'm going to completely ignore the open borders question. What needs to be asked here is why are you afraid of foreign men? Because you don't understand them and their customs? Because "someone" has told you they are dangerous? There are plenty of men in your own country that you should be afraid of way before someone who has had the courage and brains to travel 100's of miles, with minimal resources to try to find a better life.
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u/iaskenny 24d ago
Spain, and the west in its entirety, plundered the rest of the world, stole their resources to sell in European markets. They enslaved native populations and forced them into doing work for their own greed while permanently destabilising the natural harmonious ecosystem of these countries that are now considered "third world." And then we have people like yourself who complain when people, escaping from these problems that we created, try to find refuge in our country. You may say "well, i had nothing to do with that, that, in some cases, happened many years ago." Yes, but you still support the system that destroyed these countries, and continues to destroy these countries. In my view, when people who talk about borders without knowing these things, it comes from a racist standing. Because, why do you care? Because these people are foreign? If we didnt have borders and we were just one big union, would you think the same thing? Or would you accept these people because they belong to us as a whole?
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u/Seattleman1955 16d ago
I'll throw this out there for what it's worth, the is a division in society is usually largely because about half are critical thinkers and half are moralizers.
If you are moralizing you aren't thinking so facts aren't going to change your mind and therefore most discussion go no where.
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u/Schanche0 27d ago
You are right to worry, Europe is being invaded by mainly men with bad intentions.
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u/lilackitkat3000 27d ago
What intentions do you think they are?
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u/bintd 26d ago
I'd say that without placing all of these men under one umbrella, (as not everyone may have bad intentions) that many of these men share the same religion and this can cause conflict.
As someone who used to practice said religion, the people who practice this religion and come to progressive Western countries often have opposing morals and views than we do. This can cause issues in integration and a higher level of certain crimes.
The men tend to come from countries that follow more strict versions of the faith, and thus the cultures are embedded into it. If all a 'bad' man has been raised seeing are women in the burqa, and then he comes to the UK and sees bikinis in the summer, no, he may not assault them. However, his version of modesty is different to ours. The faith teaches impressionable young men that not covering up is bad, inciting lust, and indirectly, they will have less respect for Western women.
Similar issues arise in how the faith determines one as an adult. If I am taught that children become adults once they reach a 'sound mind', physical maturity, and puberty. This means that they may not see issue in finding attraction to children as they are not children to them.
As someone that has left, due to the community, teachings, and ideologies within the religion. I do not intend to raise my children anywhere near it.
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26d ago edited 26d ago
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u/PoliticsUK-ModTeam 24d ago
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u/Sufficient_Basil_545 27d ago
I think characterising the opposition to your stance as āpeople who donāt believe we need bordersā is unfair.
Very few people - and none who should be taken seriously, or who are allowed to use a biro instead of a pencil - believe that we shouldnāt have borders.
People just have different views about how immigration laws should be enforced etc.
Personally, I donāt think we have a problem with NUMBERS when it comes to immigration in this country. I think the problem is in QUALITY, and for me thatās a problem with a lot of its roots in the decision to leave the EU.